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Green Martian valley?

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posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 01:33 AM
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Stellar there really is no argument here anymore:

1) I already stated the evidence that pressure on Mars fluxuates only about 4-10 millibars. Not enough to provide "liquid water" anywhere.

2) I already stated plainly that if the ESA were talking about the "green aspects" of the image then they would be talking about ridges. The valleys in the image are either red with dust or dark (I hesitate to say black they simply have no contrast). And are hardly green. We've well established this; the ESA is talking about the large horizontal (non-green) valley.

3) Most of the valleys on Mars are caused by faulting and subsequent catastrophic flooding occuring over 3.5 billion years ago. So your point is?

4) No one has presented a working model of what causes the global Dust Storms on Mars...so why do you present your own theories? It is more wise to simply satisfy yourself that even those who do this for a living have no clue and so you may as well sit on the fence as far as that is concerned.




posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 06:16 AM
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Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
Stellar there really is no argument here anymore:


Well while you just insist on stating facts that are nowhere near such i will keep up my side of the argument.


1) I already stated the evidence that pressure on Mars fluxuates only about 4-10 millibars. Not enough to provide "liquid water" anywhere.


Well they disagree with you but since i do not believe everything NASA scientist say you should feel free to explain to me why you do not believe NASA scientist. There is more than enough evidence to suggest recent liquid movement on Mars even if you do not want to believe it.


2) I already stated plainly that if the ESA were talking about the "green aspects" of the image then they would be talking about ridges.


They were not talking about colours at all when i posted the first picture. If you can not see the green colouring of the large valley your either blind or hoping i will just go away. Since i am not i suggest you take this abit more seriously than just stating your denials in contradiction to even official NASA statements.


The valleys in the image are either red with dust or dark (I hesitate to say black they simply have no contrast). And are hardly green. We've well established this; the ESA is talking about the large horizontal (non-green) valley.


How on earth do you not see the green on that photo? It's a given that it might not really be green on Mars but how can you not see it on the photo? Do you really think you can get away with this sort of statement?


3) Most of the valleys on Mars are caused by faulting and subsequent catastrophic flooding occuring over 3.5 billion years ago. So your point is?


That is not true as scientist all over the world are now admitting. There is evidence of recent geological activity and you better start looking at the facts if you want to be taken seriously on this forum


4) No one has presented a working model of what causes the global Dust Storms on Mars...so why do you present your own theories?


I am sure they have presented models and one of them will probably be accurate once we get to the surface. I present my own theory because i do not mind speculating and admitting as much. Science is all about making daring generalizations if you did not know.


It is more wise to simply satisfy yourself that even those who do this for a living have no clue and so you may as well sit on the fence as far as that is concerned.


They do have a clue but have not yet decided what to agree on. You should get a clue imo.

Stellar



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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You sure make a lot of conclusions for being someone with no formal education on the matter.

There are no working models of Martian Atmospherics, not even close.

There is no good theory because the Martian Dust storms doesn't fit the seasonal patterns as would be expected.

It's a mystery the same as is El Nino on the Earth.

And even with the discovery of as many Dust Devils as there are isn't helping the mechanics of the matter.

And that giant dark valley is nowhere near green....I don't see how you get green out of it. Unless you think Martian plants are some deep-dark green like an olive...which makes no sense...



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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wow talk about a fake picture. if your going to use photoshop... try not to paint long marks of ink in the middle of the picture if your trying to convince people. all you did here was change the HUE of the picture and make some areas darker than others and paint some lines to try and amaze people... not impressive. i hope other people realize how fake this is.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by GrowingConspiracy
wow talk about a fake picture. if your going to use photoshop... try not to paint long marks of ink in the middle of the picture if your trying to convince people. all you did here was change the HUE of the picture and make some areas darker than others and paint some lines to try and amaze people... not impressive. i hope other people realize how fake this is.


I explained in my post that I was altering the brightness to bring out the details of the image. That is all. I've not changed the hue (which is color by the way) or made any fake alterations. Look at my post, I provided the link to the source image, so anyone else can do it too..

If you're going to keep replying to my posts rudely, I'm going to put you on ignore, alright? I've seen most of your childish and guillable threads, and you know what.. this forum isn't a playground. Kids like you really are the worst of ATS. Grow up.

Psst.. if you want to be respected, then show some respect for once.

[edit on 26/2/06 by SteveR]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
You sure make a lot of conclusions for being someone with no formal education on the matter.


And your comments so far indicates that a formal education does not really make a close minded person any better informed.


There are no working models of Martian Atmospherics, not even close.


By working you mean they have not been approved and sponsored as being 100% accurate? Well they can not do manage to even agree on what the weather of the US will be like for the next few weeks so it's no surprise to me that they can not agree on this.


There is no good theory because the Martian Dust storms doesn't fit the seasonal patterns as would be expected.


Well you expect pretty odd things based on your own preconceived notions and if this is a prevailing problem with planetary geologist i can well understand why there is so many gaps in our knowledge.


It's a mystery the same as is El Nino on the Earth.


It's no mystery imo.


And even with the discovery of as many Dust Devils as there are isn't helping the mechanics of the matter.


Well if new and more information does not help it's time to check all your assumptions and facts you have gathered so far.


And that giant dark valley is nowhere near green....I don't see how you get green out of it. Unless you think Martian plants are some deep-dark green like an olive...which makes no sense...


Well it looks green on my screen so i guess i need to ask everyone on this forum how much green their seeing. Do me a favour and check yours while i check mine since it seems to be displaying all the other colours as i remember them.

Thanks


Stellar



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 07:57 PM
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stella:

It is clear that the person you have engaged in discussion has an agenda, and not it is not one of discovery.

Note how this poster has completely ignored the Louros Valles...the venting, the river channels to the left side, the peculiar structures, the reflective points, the"furbieness" of the greenish areas (and they are greenish).

This deflective behavior is not new, however, as Malin has not released any images of the valley floor taken at high resolution either, and has curiously, focused on the same ridges that this paradigm-entrenched obfuscator has as well.

keep at it.

ESA slipped when they released this image.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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What river channels? Highlight them and then provide your "evidence" for why they are river channels...because I fail to see them...looks like a rifting event to me.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 02:48 PM
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And jd, this image isn't in true color so who cares if the valley looks "green" to you (it's a dark spot not a green).



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 06:23 PM
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stratrf_rus
I belive you mentioned earlyer that you said those cannot be valleys, then are ridges.
I have a question about that particular comment, how can there be ridges without valleys? ridges create valleys, valleys creat ridges, they go hand in hand do they not?



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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This thread has been awesome... the debate kept me entertained and made me sign up to the sight in earnest.

I dont see anything in any of the pictures that would warrant further inspection except the one of the circular ball that is in the middle of a crater. Its hidden away on one of the posts, I'm sure someone else has spotted it though... what is it? A man-made lander or something else?



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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PHOBOS (MOON OF MARS) IS NO MOON .ITS A SPACESTATION
ITS HOLLOW FROM WITHIN , A RUSSIAN MATHEMATICIAN PROVED IT BY STUDYING ITS GRAVITATIONAL BEHAVOUR.....

ALSO SOVIET PHOBOS SATELLITE HAD PHOTOGRAPHED A 21.5 KM LONG CYLINDRICAL SPACE SHIP , BEFORE HRS WHEN SOVIETS LOST CONTACT...




Phobos
Phobos 2 Soviet Mission and the Mars moon Phobos
Phobos 2 was a Soviet probe sent to examine the Martian moon Phobos ( The USSR was interested in the possibility of using Phobos as a staging post for a manned exploration of Mars ). What makes it interesting to ufologists is that among the images it sent back before it malfunctioned was one (allegedly the last one) which appeared to show a large object near Phobos. Analysis of this picture and of a picture showing what seems to be the shadow of the "UFO" on Mars, indicate an object about 20km long. The implication to ufologists is that this "space station" could have been involved with the probes untimely demise.

> Phobos 2 Soviet mission to Mars and Phobos

Phobos is artificial structure says Soviet Colonel (CSETI)
According to retired Soviet Air Force Colonel Marina Popovich, Phobos, one of the two Martian moons, is an artificial structure. In a meeting with CSETI's International Director, Dr. Steven Greer, she told him that her sources also advised that it is hollow.
> Click here to go
www.ufoevidence.org...


[edit on 5-1-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by vK_man
PHOBOS (MOON OF MARS) IS NO MOON .ITS A SPACESTATION
ITS HOLLOW FROM WITHIN , A RUSSIAN MATHEMATICIAN PROVED IT BY STUDYING ITS GRAVITATIONAL BEHAVOUR.....

ALSO SOVIET PHOBOS SATELLITE HAD PHOTOGRAPHED A 21.5 KM LONG CYLINDRICAL SPACE SHIP , BEFORE HRS WHEN SOVIETS LOST CONTACT...


[edit on 5-1-2007 by vK_man]

I have three observations regarding your post:

A.) Why are you yelling?

B.) The Russian scientist you referred to is Josif Samuilovich Shklovsky. In 1959 he was attempting to explain Phobos' secular acceleration (its orbit is decaying) and he calculated that Phobos must be of very low mass for its orbit to be decaying in the manner that it is. He surmised that Phobos could be hollow, given its size and low mass. He wasn't the only scientist who thought this. President Eisenhowers science advisor suggested this, also. In the years since then, the actual secular acceleration of Phobos has been measured much more precisely, and the general feeling among scientists is that friction could easily account for the discrepancies the Shklovsky believed he observed.

In a nutshell, since Shklovsky's original theory in 1959, scientists have calculated that Phobos is not hollow.

C.) The Russian probe photgraphed a cylindical object...there's no way to tell if the object was a spaceship. (and no way to tell that it wasn't)



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Yarium
Next, no, I do not agree that life requires water. Life on earth has the tendency of requiring water - but that's because we pass water through our system so often. We use it as a cooling device essentially. On Mars, I doubt they need cooling. Not only that, but remember MIR? Remember how some fungus started growing on the OUTSIDE of the station? It fed straight off of the solar panels and the chemicals therein. It didn't even need an atmosphere. This wasn't extraterrestial fungus, it was earth-born fungus that, since no other fungus could survive in space, thrived in a competition free environment.


That's the first I've heard of this, can you post some links? Crazy that it was growing in such a hostile enviorment if true.



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by vK_man
PHOBOS (MOON OF MARS) IS NO MOON .ITS A SPACESTATION
ITS HOLLOW FROM WITHIN , A RUSSIAN MATHEMATICIAN PROVED IT BY STUDYING ITS GRAVITATIONAL BEHAVOUR.....

ALSO SOVIET PHOBOS SATELLITE HAD PHOTOGRAPHED A 21.5 KM LONG CYLINDRICAL SPACE SHIP , BEFORE HRS WHEN SOVIETS LOST CONTACT...


[edit on 5-1-2007 by vK_man]


I have three observations regarding your post:

A.) Why are you yelling?

B.) The Russian scientist you referred to is Josif Samuilovich Shklovsky. In 1959 he was attempting to explain Phobos' secular acceleration (its orbit is decaying) and he calculated that Phobos must be of very low mass for its orbit to be decaying in the manner that it is. He surmised that Phobos could be hollow, given its size and low mass. He wasn't the only scientist who thought this. President Eisenhowers science advisor suggested this, also. In the years since then, the actual secular acceleration of Phobos has been measured much more precisely, and the general feeling among scientists is that friction could easily account for the discrepancies the Shklovsky believed he observed.

In a nutshell, since Shklovsky's original theory in 1959, scientists have calculated that Phobos is not hollow.

C.)



Why are you yelling?

NOY YELLING...



The Russian probe photgraphed a cylindical object...there's no way to tell if the object was a spaceship. (and no way to tell that it wasn't)



why did phobos lose contact ?:??

and that thing was stationed in a manner lik as if it were docking



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by pavil
That's the first I've heard of this, can you post some links? Crazy that it was growing in such a hostile enviorment if true.


It's true ( but it was on one of the Moon landers leg's as far as i recall) but i can't seem to find my link to it at the moment ... Here are some of what i do have...

Great summary in next article...

www.livescience.com...


How often have you heard people say........ "There is no life in the Great Salt Lake!"? This is even said by people who KNOW about the harvesting of the brine shrimp from the lake itself! It is always a mystery how animals are supposed to survive without a primary producer to provide them with food and oxygen. Well, it is now safe to say that wherever there is natural water, no matter the quality, there will be life in it. In recent years we have discovered life in places we assumed it was impossible. When we did discover life in extreme environments we still resisted the fact that they were active and not passive (ie. simply washed into)in such settings. Now we have evidence that living organisms can not only tolerate but prefer extreme environments. Bacteria, and sometimes algae, have been found in extremely: cold water (psychrophiles), hot water (thermophiles), high acid environments (acidophiles), high hydrostatic pressures such as on the ocean floor (barophiles), and in high salt concentrations like the Great Salt Lake (halophiles). Actually, the salt concentration of the Great Salt Lake is too low to support high populations of certain algae as we shall see later.

Lakes such as the Great Salt Lake that are hypersaline are considered to be rather simple ecosystems with a simple food web because they contain fewer species than freshwater lakes. There is a very efficient system of energy exchange between the few levels of life in this environment, however.

faculty.weber.edu...



Rick Cavicchioli of the University of New South Wales studies extremophiles from Antarctica, including an organism called Methanogenium frigidum. It only grows in very cold oxygen-free conditions and makes a living by combining hydrogen and carbon dioxide to produce methane. Other Methanogens have been found in warmer conditions such as deep sea hydrothermal vents but the Antarctic bugs will die if exposed to oxygen or to temperatures higher than 18 degrees Celsius. They stop growing at temperatures below -10 degrees Celsius but might do quite well in the soils of Mars on a warm day, if they could find a source of hydrogen and protection from UV rays. Cavicchioli points out that M. frigidum do not require a source of carbon, other than carbon dioxide in the air. They are therefore unlikely to have been interested in the offer of carbon-containing broth in the LR experiments.

www.space.com...



"Since Viking, relevant discoveries have been made of organisms living under extreme environments. Many terrestrial microbial forms are now known that populate environmental extremes until recently though inimical to life," Levin said.

The envelope of temperature, pressure, atmospheric composition, and salinity has been pushed to unanticipated regions, including the environment of Mars, Levin said. "These findings make it likely that Martian organisms could be well adapted to the current Martian conditions."

The team provided both experimental evidence and mathematical work showing, in their view, how water can exist in liquid phase under Martian surface conditions. It occurs when and where the surface temperature exceeds zero-degrees Celsius. Surface temperatures above freezing were found at the Viking 1 landing site, and snow or frost was seen at the second Viking location.

www.space.com...



The theory is similar to actual conditions found in deep caverns on Earth, such as the Lechuguilla cave in New Mexico - the deepest found in the continental U.S. - where hardy bacteria thrive in a pool of water and feed off gases. Below the surface of Idaho, creatures dubbed methanogens give off methane as waste while subsisting on hydrogen from rocks around underground springs.

www.space.com...



Another group of researchers, reporting in the October 19 issue of Nature, claims to have found and revived bacteria on Earth that were dormant, in the form of spores, hiding in New Mexican salt crystals for 250 million years. Scientists called the implications of this second discovery profound, suggesting that if further study bears out the findings, it could mean bacterial spores are nearly immortal.

And if you are immortal, then what are a few billion years of interstellar travel?

"Until recently, panspermia was not even regarded as a scientific hypothesis," says Chandra Wickramasinghe, the concept's leading proponent. "Now that has changed."

www.space.com...



Several discoveries have shown that life can indeed thrive in seemingly inhospitable conditions. In 2002, scientists reported finding organisms 660 feet (200 meters) below Idaho. They eat hydrogen and belch methane. Other microbes are known to use methane for energy. And life has been found to endure temperatures of 212 degrees Fahrenheit (100 Celsius) around hot springs under the sea. Gold's creatures would only need to endure 248 degrees Fahrenheit (120 Celsius) to live a few miles down, he calculated.

www.space.com...



A bizarre community of microbes has been discovered inside rocks in Yellowstone National Park, thriving in pores filled with water so acidic it can dissolve steel nails.

The clusters, interwoven with flourishing green algae, comprise at least 40 different new species of bacteria, according to Jeffrey Walker, a University of Colorado microbiologist -- and he and his colleagues say the microbes' fossil forms could provide powerful clues to the nature of early life on Earth and life that may have existed billions of years ago on Mars.

"The most exciting thing about it is that we're seeing life in a place and in an environment where it hasn't ever been known to exist -- and not just life in the form of isolated organisms, but in an entire ecosystem," he said in an interview.

www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2005/04/21/MNGBCCCDD21.DTL



Where there is water, there could be life. Many investigations on Earth have turned up extremophiles -- microbes living in frigid conditions, thriving in extremely salty water, and gathering around volcanic vents. Last month scientists announced the discovery of bacteria that had survived in a state of frozen suspension for 32,000 years.

"We're now seeing geological characteristics on Mars that could be related to life," Head said. "But we're a long way from knowing that life does indeed exist. The glacial deposits we studied would be accessible for sampling in future space missions. If we had ice to study, we would know a lot more about climate change on Mars and whether life is a possibility there."

www.space.com...


Hope that helps.


Stellar



posted on Jan, 8 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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I like the way Stratrf_Rus is an expert on anything and everything dealing with Mars and the other planets.

He's never left Earth, yet he knows in full confidence whether or not there is any kind of water or geologic activity on Mars. He knows that plant life cannot grow under Mars atmospheric pressures, since he himself obviously knows every single possible kind of life in the universe. After all, he's been everywhere and knows that all life must be Earth-like, or all conditions harboring life must be Earth-like.

Stratrf_Rus, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Scientists have "mirrored" Mars' conditions and grown plants accordingly. You can most certainly grow even Earth vegetation in low atmospheric pressure similar to Mars.

Water is still causing erosion on Mars. NASA just had a press conference dedicated to that, remember?

Water can most certainly exist on Mars. Mars' pressure at the bottom of canyons is on the brink of what pure liquid water can survive in before sublimation. Any idea what happens when you add salt to the mix? Remember, adding sodium chloride can keep water liquid beyond temperatures of -20 degrees. Add calcium chloride and water can stay liquid to -50 degrees. Salt water, even under Mars' atmospheric pressure, can exist for long periods of time.

Now, remember, NASA just had a press conference stating that Mars is still being eroded by water even today. This means that there is water only a few feet under the surface. Now, assuming there is vegetation on the picture provided that is even Earth-like, the vegetation can exist on Mars as there is water right below the surface. Surely the roots could grow long enough to get to the water table.

Now, let's throw in the FACT that if it IS vegetation, it is NOT Earth-like and therefore will not behave exactly like Earth plants. It may be a lot toughter, have roots miles deep and be thousands of feet tall in height. After all, Mars' lower gravity and lack of air pressure weighing down on the surface would promote tall plant life, no?

Again,Stratrf_Rus, you are as ignorant as they come. Your commentary, especially on a forum like this, is nothing short of detrimental.



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 02:52 AM
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I'd be interested in seeing someone provide evidence that water can survive on the surface of Mars because I've asked that question of Dr. Wendy Calvin who is a Geologist and manager of the program for the Oportunity Rover and she's even confirmed flat out that it is impossible in any condition for liquid water to survive on Mars - it's being searched for in subterranean locations....aquifers.



posted on Mar, 7 2007 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
I'd be interested in seeing someone provide evidence that water can survive on the surface of Mars


Would you like pictures or the well understood but obscured observations that tells us it must be?


because I've asked that question of Dr. Wendy Calvin who is a Geologist and manager of the program for the Oportunity Rover


Like asking the Pope about the foundation of your faith; if you don't want anything but text book responses this is surely the way to go!


and she's even confirmed flat out that it is impossible in any condition for liquid water to survive on Mars



On Mars the globally-averaged surface pressure of the planet's atmosphere is only slightly less than 6.1 millibars.

"That's the average," says Haberle, "so some places will have pressures that are higher than 6.1 millibars and others will be lower. If we look at sites on Mars where the pressure is a bit higher, that's where water can theoretically exist as a liquid."

science.msfc.nasa.gov...



Squyres described as "bizarre, really weird" the way in which the crater floor seems to have responded to the dragging of the rover's airbags, which deflated after the lander bounced down onto the surface after being released from its parachute. "I don't understand it," he said. Surface pebbles seem to have been squished into the soil around the lander, which appears like layers of cohesive material. "It looks like mud, but can't be mud. It looks like when it is scrunched, it folds up," said Squyres, who added, "This is something I have never seen before."

www.news.cornell.edu...


The scientific method in action; " It looks like it but it can't be because we don't believe it!"

I have far more but you could easily have found that information on ATS and posed some questions instead of posting this blatant , and quite indiotic, denial as made by someone who clearly must know the truth.


- it's being searched for in subterranean locations....aquifers.


Well if they looked on the surface they would find water but since they do not want to find it there it's quite logical that they must look somewhere else to stay 'active' while generally feigning a interest in reality.

Stellar



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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I was interested in coming here based on scientific observations but now am puzzled as to why someone like Stellar-X would proceed to argue agianst what scientists argue for? Experience?




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