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Do atheists really long for God

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posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by OneGodJesus
so called atheists

So called? Interesting choice of words. I guess you're thinking of certain people in particular.


"innocent"

"innocent"? Are you implying that Atheists are immoral or guilty of something?


Now it took me quite ahile to compile these and if you just look at the members area and look up the name and then count the thread entries they make you can do the same thing. It is easy to see that there is an agenda for these folks to concentrate most of their time in these areas addressing something they don't believe in, right?

Well I know you didn't concentrate on me as I avoid discussion on religion as those discussions usually just go round and round in circles and nothing really gets accomplished.

I only react baddly when they(the Theists) start to make broad reaching statements like "AI is impossible because we are not God" or somesuch. You know Strawmen statements that cannot be logically proven or disproven and are basically articles of faith. My faith is in common decency and critical thinking if you can call it "faith" that is.

Definitions of "faith" are...
# religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
# complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
# religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
# loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

I guess you can say I have complete confidence in Critical Thinking and the Scientific Method and Common Decency and Morality and the lack of a divine entity but that's about it. Some people have tried to paint me into a immoral monster because of my beliefs. It is those people I can't stand.


It seems to me that if you A: claim to be agnostic or B: athiestic , you would have no interest in the things of God, unless you have either a bone to pick and wanted a forum to do it in, or you were denying the very thing you were seeking after (kind of a shoot the boat your in syndrome).

Those people have a bone to pick for whatever reason and each does so for their own reasons, not the reasons you rubber stamp onto them(which is a very oh I dunno is Arrogant the right word to use?)

Maybe the reason they do this is because they see blind faith in an arbitrary religion to be dangerous. We see how blind faith in an Imam can lead to Rioting and Bloodshed without even seeing the reason for why they are Rioting, Killing or Commiting Arson. We can also see how it can lead to Bigotry and Intolerance of people of differenent religions, skin color or nationality.


Question to the above.

Why do you even care what ANYONE thinks religion-wise it doesn't matter to you, right?


Benevolent Heretic summed it up quite nicely.



I think that you secretly envy the faithful and wish you could be like them. I gather this because of life experience. It goes like this, a boy and girl of about
8 each say they can't stand each other and yet really like each other.

The same can be ascribed to any type of debunker as was noted above. Doesn't make it true as we aren't all children or childlike which is how I see those atheists who actively try to disprove something that is not Provable or Disprovable.


They just cannot admit that they do, for fear of rejection. I can tell you that you won't be rejected. No sin is greater than another. Sin is sin. It can be forgiven and washed away.

That's the promise of Religion but it also absolves people of responsiblity in their own minds because if they attone for their "sins" no matter how greivous why bother to avoid sinning? I know that is a extreme view but I've encountered that thought process in too many "true believers" which is actually one of the reasons why I no longer "believe".

I personally see Atheism as the ultimate evolution of "Faith" as we originally started out with dozens of deities and spirits which as we started to learn to explain the world, we found we no longer needed to worship Poseidon or Aries or any other god for that matter except the one "true" god. Of course there are exceptions to this but the majority are Monotheists.

Oh and please don't go and change your faith for little ole me, you gotta make your own decisions in this life.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by sardion2000]




posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
1) "So called?" Interesting choice of words. I guess you're thinking of certain people in particular.

2) "innocent"? Are you implying that Atheists are immoral or guilty of something?

3) Well I know you didn't concentrate on me as I avoid discussion on religion as those discussions usually just go round and round in circles and nothing really gets accomplished. I only react baddly when they(the Theists) start to make broad reaching statements like "AI is impossible because we are not God" or somesuch. You know Strawmen statements that cannot be logically proven or disproven and are basically articles of faith. My faith is in common decency and critical thinking if you can call it "faith" that is.

4) Definitions of "faith" are...
# religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
# complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
# religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
# loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

5) I guess you can say I have complete confidence in Critical Thinking and the Scientific Method and Common Decency and Morality and the lack of a divine entity but that's about it. Some people have tried to paint me into a immoral monster because of my beliefs. It is those people I can't stand.

6) Those people have a bone to pick for whatever reason and each does so for their own reasons, not the reasons you rubber stamp onto them(which is a very oh I dunno is Arrogant the right word to use?)

7) Maybe the reason they do this is because they see blind faith in an arbitrary religion to be dangerous. We see how blind faith in an Imam can lead to Rioting and Bloodshed without even seeing the reason for why they are Rioting, Killing or Commiting Arson. We can also see how it can lead to Bigotry and Intolerance of people of differenent religions, skin color or nationality.

8) The same can be ascribed to any type of debunker as was noted above. Doesn't make it true as we aren't all children or childlike which is how I see those atheists who actively try to disprove something that is not Provable or Disprovable.

9) That's the promise of Religion but it also absolves people of responsiblity in their own minds because if they attone for their "sins" no matter how greivous why bother to avoid sinning? I know that is a extreme view but I've encountered that thought process in too many "true believers" which is actually one of the reasons why I no longer "believe".

10) I personally see Atheism as the ultimate evolution of "Faith" as we originally started out with dozens of deities and spirits which as we started to learn to explain the world, we found we no longer needed to worship Poseidon or Aries or any other god for that matter except the one "true" god. Of course there are exceptions to this but the majority are Monotheists.

11) Oh and please don't go and change your faith for little ole me, you gotta make your own decisions in this life.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by sardion2000]


Wow, didn't realize how big this was getting. I would cut it down but I think each area can be addressed quickly.

1) The "so called" was directed at those has have an unrefined view of what they believe. I am finding that there are differing brands of Atheism. Some agree while others do not about the exact nature of the philosophy (or lack thereof depending on whom you ask).

2) Innocence or guilt of something, well I'd say that some hold a secret agenda that is becoming more apparent as time goes along. So, yes, innocence applies in my estimation.

3) You're right I didn't target your userid, although I could if you like for analysis. Shouldn't take that long, maybe a week? lol.

4) This is fair. And I'd agree to the basis of these definitions, for the most part. But blindly following is not correct in this instance. The only leap of faith in my instance was taking a book at face value and applying it to my life and seeing what transpires. Sounds a bit scientific huh?

5) The scientific method has four steps 1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. 2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation. 3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations. 4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

With the above in mind, what is an hypothesis but an educated guess. You can expect a certain outcome but it may come out altogether different than expected. Sounds suspiciously like faith. I understand the scientific method but it doesn't explain everything and a catch all of "well we just haven't discovered that yet is not very scientific, no? Here is an example, can you ever truely exactly measure something? Its a trick question so be careful, kinda like the one that scientific folks like to do to us like "can God create a rock even He can't lift".

6) You're right about the rubber stamp thing. Sorry to mislabel "all" atheists in the past. I am getting better though, at least I don't think you're all just foaming at the mouth...lol.

7) Now we are at the crux to the problem. People are LAZY. They don't read for themselves and just quote anybody about things they never knew in the first place (I have been guilty so I am preaching to myself too). Again I am getting better though and recognize my faults and am trying to make ammends for it by understanding and open dialog. This does lead back to my earlier posed statement that if you try all available religions and see for yourself you can speak with authority not like most do now, with no first hand knowledge. If you try and attend just one service of an Apostolic Pentacostal church with an open mind to the message you will get something out of it. I promise and if I am wrong what have you lost in the doing, a small portion of a day. I am banking on a promise from my maker that states His Word WILL NOT come back void. So...apply the scientific method away to the promise of the only ONE who I know can mend the broken.

8) Actually you can prove something by the scientific methods right. Observable is key right? Let's look the change in peoples lives once they have embraced the idea that religion fills a necessary void in thier lives. A hope for the eternal. I mean if you have no hope beyond this life, then why aren't there more people who don't believe robbing banks. They have no reason to fear a place of punishment if they don't get caught. And if they are as smart as most here have advertised themselves to be they won't get caught right? Sure it might be morally wrong but who cares the money is insured and will be put back anyway. The money you get you can spend on promoting the economy of a third world nation to absolve them of debt or something grand like that.

9) It absolutely does not absolve people of responsibility. At least not Christians. If they think so let them read 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? " So that pretty much says it all about getting out of it. I found this interesting site and thought to share it: www.gospeljohn.com...

10) Actually it is a devolution if you count it rooted to the first few centuries like the website I mentioned: www.atheists.org...
says about it.

11) Naw, I think I'll stick with what I've got. Tried the rest sticking with the best. As always IMHO.



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Y'know most people who are fighter for the cause use Don Hirschberg, Clark Adams and Temy R. Beal quotes to back them up. I would caution you though because Temy R. Beal also says "I assert that BOTH church and state should be abolished utterly" and Adams "If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease or bald is a hair color or peace is a type of war" although whitty is infantile in its application, like saying "can God create a rock even He can't lift...blah blah blah" makes no sense in context, it is just someone who is clever in speaking. I would be very careful about who you look to for leadership in your stance on things. As the blind leading the blind saying can apply in all directions. Just watch out for the ditch of you put your faith in men, they have this nasty tendency to fail you when you least expect it.


Kay....I have no idea what any of that means though.
No offense, and I'm not saying you are, but your post, it seems like you were under the influence of a substance when you wrote it.



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
Kay....I have no idea what any of that means though.
No offense, and I'm not saying you are, but your post, it seems like you were under the influence of a substance when you wrote it.
CORRECTION VERSION
Y'know most people who are fighters for the cause (Atheism) use Don Hirschberg, Clark Adams and Temy R. Beal quotes to back them up (nothing new there). I would caution you though because Temy R. Beal also says "I assert that BOTH church and state should be abolished utterly" (meaning he is borderline wanting to overthrow the government and therefore a possible internal insurgent) and Adams "If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease or bald is a hair color or peace is a type of war" that although whitty is infantile in its application, it is like saying "can God create a rock even He can't lift...blah blah blah" makes no sense in applicable context, it is just someone who is clever in speaking and nothing more. I would be very careful about who you look to for leadership in your stance on things (for your continued position on what atheism is and ain't). As the blind leading the blind saying can applied in all directions (a biblical saying and usually applied by non-believers saying we follow blindly). Just watch out for the ditch (when they fail you) because if you put your faith in men, they have this nasty tendency to fail you when you least expect it (i.e. come up short). Or as Confusious say "blind man as leader of pack soon find followers in ditch for company" or something like that...sorry for the typos other than that it was ok. What are you trying to say, I need typing lessons...?

[edit on 9/2/06 by OneGodJesus]



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 06:51 PM
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Y'know most people who are fighters for the cause (Atheism) use Don Hirschberg, Clark Adams and Temy R. Beal quotes to back them up (nothing new there).

I would caution you though because Temy R. Beal also says "I assert that BOTH church and state should be abolished utterly" (meaning he is borderline wanting to overthrow the government and therefore a possible internal insurgent)
And Adams "If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease or bald is a hair color or peace is a type of war" that although whitty is infantile in its application, it is like saying "can God create a rock even He can't lift...blah blah blah" makes no sense in applicable context, it is just someone who is clever in speaking and nothing more.

I would be very careful about who you look to for leadership in your stance on things (for your continued position on what atheism is and ain't).

As the blind leading the blind saying can applied in all directions (a biblical saying and usually applied by non-believers saying we follow blindly).

Just watch out for the ditch (when they fail you) because if you put your faith in men, they have this nasty tendency to fail you when you least expect it (i.e. come up short).
Or as Confusious say "blind man as leader of pack soon find followers in ditch for company" or something like that.


Ok, now I understand it better, but in the future, it would be good to break things up into smaller sentences, like how i did with your's in the above quote.

A few things that you said that I'd like to respond to as well.




I would caution you though because Temy R. Beal also says "I assert that BOTH church and state should be abolished utterly" (meaning he is borderline wanting to overthrow the government.

I would'nt say he's borderline just because he does'nt think that a government is right,
I believe the current government needs to be overthrown, but I'm not gonna try and do it, not unless I have 60%+ of the American population on my side.
And in my own personal view of a paradise, there would be no government.




Just watch out for the ditch (when they fail you) because if you put your faith in men, they have this nasty tendency to fail you when you least expect it (i.e. come up short).

I don't put my faith in humankind, I do not have faith.
And I do agree partially, humanity does have a tendency to not follow through with things, and do the opposite of what it says it will.



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Span: The whole chinese food thing....funny stuff. I honestly laughed out loud on this one. Again about the stealth blonde joke, good stuff.


We have that in common then if nothing else.


Originally posted by OneGodJesus
I guess what I don't get is if atheists don't care about what others think or preach (as long as they do not infringe on your liberty) is why even attack it.


I think it would be proper to conclude that those that attack it do care, and those that don't attack it probably don't care (at least not much). You can't generalize it, as there are miriad reasons.

Some do it because they can't stand to see people propogating what they consider to be foolishness. Some do it because they view religion as a paraistic disease that humanity would be better off without. Some do it because they see the high likelihood of the end of human life from wars rooted in religion. Some do it because ID proponents have had some success and they don't want any more scientific groundwork lost to mythology. Some do it because they have a chip on their shoulder from wasting nearly 40 years devoted to faith, and some are sick ba$tards who do it just for fun. There is no single reason.


Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Is it just human nature? You don't see Buddhists, Hindus or Sikhs (or even most scientist minus the ones attacking ID) doing it.


Remember that these are groups that specifically teach tolerance. They may be suppressing their nature as a result. It would be better to examine how people act on nonreligious issues. You will find passionate people on any topic; both passionate proponents, and passionate opponents.




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