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Gay Bar attacked in hate crime

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posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
And just how exactly do studies come up with this number?


I went to the trouble of finding the studies for you. If you're really interested, you'll have to read them yourself. It's all there. Unless it makes you uncomfortable to read about it.

In that case, I will tell you that it has to do with homophobes' physical responses to gay porn.

I also happen to personally know of a case where a co-worker was a very vocal and hate-filled gay-basher. Since his operation, he's called "Wendy".


[edit on 3-2-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]




posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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I've never understood why so many people think that if your homophobic your homosexual yourself...

Theres no connection... =/



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Kacen
I've never understood why so many people think that if your homophobic your homosexual yourself...

Theres no connection... =/


If you've never understood it, then read the studies I've posted. You don't have to agree, but the information is there in understandable terms.

Have you guys even read the links I posted? Still don't understand?



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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To try and help clarify BH's point - to those who don't get the "homophobic might equal homosexual" thing.

I am a 100% gay man, never had a thought or fantasy that involved any part of a female’s anatomy. But you wouldn't have guessed it back in my teenage years, not because I pretended to be a womanizer, but because I pretended that I hated "sissies" just as much as the next "straight" guy - I'm embarrassed now to even think about some of the stuff I said back then, but hey - I was a stupid teenager just trying to fit in.

It was 'cool' to go along with the crowd, so when your buddies talked crap about someone for being a sissy or a faggot, you jumped on the bandwagon too. It's called peer-pressure (I’m sure you've heard of it
)

I said some of the most hateful things about other people back then, just to make sure that the crosshairs of hate didn't focus in on me - I never did anything physically to anyone, or even knew about any violence towards anyone because they appeared to be a sissy, but I knew they were to be excluded from all the "reindeer games" - they were not normal and their feelings, physical welfare, and desire to be included were not even to be considered when it came to the "do unto others" rule.

Everyone wants to fit in, I still find it hard to fit in - I don't conform to the "stereotype" that gay men are "supposed" to today - and I'm talking about the gay definition of what gays should be like - I'm not "pretty enough" to be gay
I don't care for theater, Broadway, or musicals, I don't care about fashion, decor, pop-culture, "product" for my hair, tanning, working out, Etc. . . I've never even had a "fag hag", and I'm not resisting any urges to be part of any of that stuff, I just don't 'get it' - I feel like I'm not being a "good gay" - but that's a thread of a different color, it probably fits into the "today's girl can't compete with the anorexic supermodel, therefore has bad self esteem, and throws up everything she eats" genre.

I've never been to a gay bar, or any kind of gathering place meant for gay people, I'm afraid to - I want to - I want to meet other people like me, but I can't get over the fear that something like what happened in that bar might happen to me too. - I deal with the depression of knowing what society expects of a person with a penis to be and do, and feeling like all straight people must be disgusted with me, hate me, wish me harm - and simply because of that, I didn't want to EVER tell anyone - not my parents, friends, doctors, employers - ANYONE! And to this day, I've only told a handful of people my secret, and most of them have nothing to do with me anymore - and because of the efficient gossip-train here, I feel like everyone knows now, which makes me want to hide in the house and never go anywhere anymore.

Feeling like that can make people do weird things - Like the girl that will play stupid because she thinks a guy won't like a girl as smart as him - or the guy that acts too macho because he thinks, even though girls 'say' they like sensitive men, they 'really' like macho jerks.
Or how about the guy that thought turning to the priesthood would stop him from having those thoughts about kids, only to find out that now he's in a trusted position where he's got all the free access to kids he wants -

People do weird things to fit in, and sometimes when they think they aren't doing enough, or they just can't take hiding it anymore, they can go over the edge.

Does that help clear up how someone that comes across as homophobic could in reality be a homosexual and just trying his best to keep it a secret?



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:01 PM
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Being homophobic and saying they hate gays is a defense mechanism. It stems from being afraid of regjection from family and a society that has told them its bad to be gay.
That is why it is important to teach our children tolerance so we can break this cycle of hate that our parents taught us.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:12 PM
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Being homophobic and saying they hate gays is a defense mechanism. It stems from being afraid of regjection from family and a society that has told them its bad to be gay. That is why it is important to teach our children tolerance so we can break this cycle of hate that our parents taught us.


SWhere did u learn such B.s? Beibng homophobic,l doesn't mean u are acloset case, and lash out at other gay people, that's the most nonsensical thing, i have ever heard, first of all, put away, all christian, dogma aside. it'ws wrong!~ Senseless violence is Wrong! But I guess this guy got edgy as he saw that the revelant authorities wasn't doing anything about them? No? Another thing, why they the State, allow this slackness to prosper? And who says this is a freedom of expression? That's like the disgusting thing, called swinger parties and those ilk



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:18 PM
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I went to the trouble of finding the studies for you. If you're really interested, you'll have to read them yourself. It's all there. Unless it makes you uncomfortable to read about it.


I did go through your links but here is why I think they are flawed.

What you have to understand is that most men don't care if two women, or two women and a man have sexual intercourse, most are only bothered by two males having sex. Now if you want to discuss why this hypocrisy exists then your are welcomed to do so, but showing a man a video of two lesbians and calling him gay because he gets aroused over it is laughable.

What you may also not understand is that for men getting aroused is not something you think about and decide, its difficult to control, it’s almost a natural reaction to sexual imagery or what have you. And I think you can trust me on that.

These excerpts are from your links.


In Prof. Adams's test, homophobic men who said they were exclusively heterosexual were shown gay sex videos. Four out of five became sexually aroused by the homoerotic imagery, as recorded by a penile circumference measuring device (a plethysmograph).



In talking with 10 different guys, I have concluded that, on average, eight of those 10 guys have previously or currently watched porn involving either two girls, or two girls and a guy.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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Heres what i don't understand ...why is it any crime commicted against gay people or people of different races is considered a "hate crime", but to anyone else that is white people and women in general is "just" a crime...

Now ... are there really crimes than can be called "love-crimes" ??? does any act of crime come out of love ? so why the differenciation...whats makes the crimes against these people more special than others?



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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Hmm, point taken. but here this, what will any of u, guys get aroused, seeing two males having sex, in a porno video, u are watching? Comeon? what the??? hell!! That's dumb. What arouses me, is seeing the all natural feminity of women, that's what.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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I have a question...

Are you sure that homophobia means hatred of gays? Last time I checked phobia meant irrational fear, not hate.

I think the correct term for someone who is against/hates homosexuals would be "Homocist".



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by crusader



Being homophobic and saying they hate gays is a defense mechanism. It stems from being afraid of regjection from family and a society that has told them its bad to be gay. That is why it is important to teach our children tolerance so we can break this cycle of hate that our parents taught us.


SWhere did u learn such B.s? Beibng homophobic,l doesn't mean u are acloset case, and lash out at other gay people, that's the most nonsensical thing, i have ever heard, first of all, put away, all christian, dogma aside. it'ws wrong!~ Senseless violence is Wrong! But I guess this guy got edgy as he saw that the revelant authorities wasn't doing anything about them? No? Another thing, why they the State, allow this slackness to prosper? And who says this is a freedom of expression? That's like the disgusting thing, called swinger parties and those ilk


Hold up there now I wasnt saying what he did was ok. Im just trying to shed some light as to why he and lots of others like him commit hate crimes. There are lots of Homophobes but they dont go around shooting people but this guy did would it make you more comfortable if he were just crazy? Ok then why did he ask if it was a gay bar first if he were just crazy I dont think that would have mattered. And where are you getting this christian dogma crap from.Did I say any thing about god? NO! Did I quote stuff like love thy neighbor? No! I wasnt try to defend this guy, but you need to realize that most angry homobhobes are closet cases afraid that the world will reject them because of how they secretly feel.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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Somehow, I don't see Jacob D. Robida fitting the model of a homosexual trying to fit in with a homophobic crowd. There really hasn't been any substantive information released regarding Robida, except that he had "Nazi regalia" in his bedroom. I suppose if he were trying to impress some neo-Nazi group, he might have succeeded but it's unlikely that he will be hobnobbing with many of those folks for very much longer.

Of course, there are those who are now pointing the finger at everyone who opposes gay marriage or considers homosexual behavior as being immoral as being the root cause of the crime, rather than putting the blame precisely where it belongs, which is to say, Jacob D. Robida.


Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, blamed gay-bar attack on the "Christian right," from national leaders like the Rev. Pat Robertson to local conservatives who fought same-sex marriage in the state.

"We have witnessed seven years of vicious anti-LGBT organizing in Massachusetts -- and endured the hate-filled rantings of Brian Camenker of the Article 8 Alliance and Parents Rights Coalition and Ed Pawlick of MassNews," Foreman said on Thursday. "The blood spilled this morning is on their hands."

www.gay.com


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



Most notably, we've had the President of the United States telling the entire nation in his State of the Union address (last year) that gays are subhuman. Marriage has to be "protected" from gays. And surely if the President thinks that gays can't be treated equally, it must be okay to hate them, right?

How about the president plus a few dozen state legislatures? With so many states passing laws and amendments specifically to ensure that gays cannot be treated equally and fairly under the law, including prohibiting them from getting married, attaining even the same protections as marriage, or in some cases even securing even the same insurance benefits for their partners that heterosexuals can get just for the asking, is it really that hard to conceive that someone watching could get the impression that it's okay to treat gays as though they were less valued than straights?

And what of the anti-gay hate industry, primarily Focus on the "Family", the American "Family" Association and the Concerned "Women" for America, who can't even let a cartoon sponge be seen on television without having an apoplectic conniption fit? They live and breathe by the notion that somewhere, some gay person might be seen on television or heard on the radio or might write something.

web.morons.org



Don’t look for any condemnation of this type of violence from our nation’s self-appointed Christian leaders, though. They have systematically taught this nation’s youth that attacks on gays are OK.

From constitutional amendments barring same-sex marriage to Congress’ stubborn refusal to pass federal hate crimes or employment discrimination protections, to the harsh anti-gay venom preached by so-called evangelical Christians, this country continues to send a dangerous message that attacking the rights of gays and lesbians is acceptable.

www.houstonvoice.com


I cannot deny that there are very vocal anti-gay groups in America and shamefully, some are also religiously oriented, but those who are trying to paint American culture as being the root cause, when in fact, American culture has undergone dramatic changes in only a few decades, even if the most radical demands of the homosexual community still meet with resistance, are doing nothing more than alienating even more from their cause or agenda, if that word is better suited.

Someone here chastised me for an earlier post in which I said that this incident is a lame excuse for attacking American culture, but we didn't have to wait very long for such attacks to appear in print. But, of course, the prudent among us know that there are those who, in the mold of Cindy Sheehan and Sarah Brady, will use any tragedy to further a political cause.

[edit on 2006/2/3 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:38 PM
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There's a difference between people who disagree with the morality/safety of gayness, and people who are raging homophobics.

To quote a co-worker: "I don't like ugly people either; but that doesn't mean I throw rocks at them or something!"


If most homophobics are secretly gay . . . . maybe this applies to others??

Maybe the most ardent Bush-bashers are secretly admirers of the Dubya.


.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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Well, in that case I don't think its ether-or.

Perhaps some homocists are actually gay, but I'm sure quite a few aren't. It dosen't have to be all or nothing like most people think.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Kacen]



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Someone here chastised me for an earlier post in which I said that this incident is a lame excuse for attacking American culture, but we didn't have to wait very long for such attacks to appear in print. But, of course, the prudent among us know that there are those who, in the mold of Cindy Sheehan and Sarah Brady, will use any tragedy to further a political cause.


That was me Grady, and I'm sorry you felt that I chastised you, that definitely wasn't my intent. I just wanted to make sure you understood that nobody on this thread had blamed American culture. I think almost all of us are on the same page here, in thinking this attack was the product of one sick mind, and all the responsibility lies with the guy who actually wielded the weapons.

One poster said, (I'm paraphrasing) that despite the enormous tolerance exhibited by Western culture for alternative lifestyles, hate still exists. That's certainly true, I don't think there's even any wiggle room for argument. That's the only point I was trying to reinforce with my earlier post.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Kacen
It dosen't have to be all or nothing like most people think.


Nobody here has even implied that. Not even close.

Internal Homophobia (the psychological term) is a real issue. Many people hate homosexuals because of the fear and loathing of their own sexuality. The most outspoken and violent men against homosexuality many times end up 'coming out' at a later time.

I'm not here to prove it, but I've read a lot of information on it and there's plenty more out there.

The question was asked by WP23 (paraphrasing) Why do people say this? And I answered it. It's because of the condition of Internalized Homophobia.


Originally posted by WestPoint23
What you may also not understand is that for men getting aroused is not something you think about and decide, its difficult to control, it’s almost a natural reaction to sexual imagery or what have you. And I think you can trust me on that.


Oh, I know that.
I knew that before you were born.


And I referenced a study that put the number of homophobic gay people at 80%. My words:



The numbers of homophobics who are gay is said to be up to 80%.


I'm not personally claiming 80%, as I don't have the information to back that up, but I am claiming that it's greater than zero. It's a commonly known condition in the gay community for people to 'hate gays' before they come out. It's many times part of the process. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I just answered the question you asked.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Shush
he sounds like a sane man in an insane world if you ask me


the world is still not very tolerant toward homosexuals (though progress has been made) and anyone going anywhere with a hatchet and a pistol is probably insane to begin with.

i wouldn't even do that with a meeting of the "kill all nonwhite people" club! or a "beat the homosexuals" meeting!

if a person thinks something is wrong, they should take a nonviolent approach, imho.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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I don't really care whether this young criminal is gay or not it is a senseless crime of violence against a group that he decided he hated. I hope he is caught and sentenced to a nice long prison term but I also hope he gets mental help while in prison.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:43 PM
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I hope he is caught and sentenced to a nice long prison term but I also hope he gets mental help while in prison.


I'm quite sure his term in prison will also endorse his hatred for homosexuality more. I'm sure you're all quite aware that young boys in prison never fair well...

Regardless, this was an intolerable act of hatred, but should further be subdivided as to what caused this young man to act in such a fashion; was it nuerological? Was it his own hatred for his homosexuality as some here have suggested, and if so, what would lead him to believe that attacking homosexuals would somehow dismantle his own homosexuality? Was he under the influence of drugs?

Luxifero



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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This case will have legs for some time to come. I'm sure we're going to learn a lot about Jacob D. Robida before this is all over. I'm going to bet that Greta Van Susteren will make a lot of hay on this one until he is captured, at least.



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