Muslim Bashing rampant on ATS

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kid
Isit just me, or is there a helluvalot of muslim bashing on ATS at the moment. I mean, not every muslim is a suicide bomber, and some of you peeps are simply ignorant of muslim culture,

Let me tell you that I have spent 6 years in Saudi Arabia amongst the most "holiest" of muslims and many more months in other parts of the middle east. I know what Islam is all about and I have seen it exaclty what it is in the KSA.

There is/was no such thing as civil rights, human rights, equality. All men are not equal in KSA, neither are all Muslims. Life is out of a book, the Sharia, which dictates every aspect of a muslim life.

But you are right, of late the bashing has become a bit untoward against the Muslims. Maybe this is because the non-muslim bashing is more widely known to the Western public due to greater media coverage and a general interest in the public about Islam and its methods.

Nydang
In saudi arabia, if you are caught looking at women for too long, Religious Police will give you a beating, right then and there.

Nydang,
The result of looking 'inappropriately' at a woman depends on who you are. If say you are a, soldier from the US troops stationed there, you are shouted at and you could walk away with it. If you are an American/Western civilian you would maybe be fined or whipped. If you were from anyother part of the world, say Asia/Africa the punishment would be to have your eyes gouged out !

So Justice is not blind after all


[edit on 4-2-2006 by IAF101]

It is also important to differentiate between critiques of actions, even critiques of cultural norms, and attacks on people as such.


There is a big difference between

1. Saying "who does mulla so-and-so think he is, demanding that other, non-muslim persons change their behavior on his orders!"

2. Saying "culture x is unjust because it mistreats its own people this way . . ."

3. Saying "People x have no right to exist. I wish they'd just die."

See there is a huge difference between those. A difference between critique and cursing. Certainly, on threads with numerous posts its hard to remember who said what. It is also easy to lump people together because of the way they use a given term, or because we want to believe "they are all that way."

.

I highly doubt ignorance is applaud-worthy, but when the blind lead the blind, what else can be expected?

This week in Alabama, six Baptist churches were put to the torch by person(s) unknown. I'm not talking about silly cartoons, but fire. I'm not talking about hurting feelings, but destroying property. Do you see Christians in the street, attacking people who aren't even guilty of a crime? Do you see people making threatening statements, throwing rocks or anything as stupid and barbaric as that? Of course not. Furthermore, it isn't even expected behavior of the Christian population. No, they are doing as is expected of them; they are working to have other places to meet come Monday, and are praying for those who do such deeds.
Why is it that the behavior is different?
Could it be in the teaching? I believe so. The Christian is taught to pray for those who do not know the Way, not to call for those to be destroyed, to be punished and for those to go to Hell. Our god, the one and true G-d of Abraham, declares that vengeance is His, and by the way, He doesn't need any silly and imperfect human to act on His behalf.
To compare Christianity, WyrdeOne, to Islam, is frought with perils for those who attempt it. For example, to say that Jesus, who is said by the Christians to be the Christ, is violent in silence because of Hell, is to disregard the fact that He came to Earth to lead a perfect life so that He might be the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins. This way, you see, we do not have to go to the place that was not designed for us, but for Satan and his demons. This is your choice, to accept or reject. He did the dying for you. Muhammed did this? He died for your sins, or do his words call for the forced conversion (as if a sword can change a heart), domination, or destruction of all who do not belief in Islam?
Serious difference, there.

Right now, there are Muslims rioting and acting stupid because of cartoon drawings, drawings that were drawn by Islamic provocateurs to incite and encourage the violent and animalistic reaction it is gaining.
This behavior can be found where else? In Alabama, with the Christians whose churches were burned?
Maybe from the Christians who are persecuted, tortured and killed around the world at the hands of the Muslims? Nope, not there, either.

Nope, such behavior is incidental and uncommon in other beliefs and isms, but is expected and can be justified in the suras and hadiths of Islam.

Cartoons. Cartoons, man, think about it. You say there is Muslim-bashing, while at the same time all over the world, we see things violent happening and "Allah Akbar!" being chanted. No, I can't understand why there would be anxiety about Islam anywhere in the world, much less an international board, where many people just might be seeing unwanted violence today, right now.

This just in...Emabassies burning in Syria because of cartoons created by provocateurs! Film and death count at eleven!

Edited because I couldn't type correctly if my life depended on it.

[edit on 4-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Oh, lookie - burning the flag that represents all of Denmark! Danish people, unite! throw stones at the nearest U.N. person and burn something! Take a hostage, if you can!



[edit on 4-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Look here, a crowd of Alabamian Christians crowding together with weapons because their places or worship were burned to the ground!

Wait, I don't recognize the linen, must not be Southern Baptists.

Yup, I can see why Christianity is ridiculed all over the world, and why it is perfectly acceptable to mock the One who died for us.

Oh, wait a minute, that isn't the topic; the topic is "bashing" of Islam.
Please. Considering some really bad cartoons were dissiminated, claimed to be the ones in the newspapers, and were nothing more than tools used to incite and provoke, this thread appears now? Regardless of the validity of the cartoons, the fact that the Islamic world is violently protesting cartoons makes them more the target of people's scorn distrust and contempt.
As stated before, what is uncommon in other isms is expected in this particular one.

Seriously, this is very bad timing. I am worried about good people and friends being hurt by rabid members of a particular ism, and a thread is started saying that that ism is being bashed. Quite the hilarity.

Maybe it is just that the ism doesn't understand how to take a little persecaution. They should take note of how the Christians, the Jews, the Budhists, the Animists and the others are treated by them, then they will understand.

Can we all agree that an individual is an individual and not a label?

Can we all agree that statements like these are ignorant?
Americans are evil money worshiping fat monsters that want to bomb nations that have oil.

Muslims are primitive people want nothing more than to kill those who are not Muslim. They are trying to take over the world.

The French are pathetic and weak and need to grow a pair.

The Blacks are destroying white culture by taking all the blond women and making white men look like dorks on TV and Movies.

Jews think they are the chosen people so they are trying to rule America by controlling the media.

The Mexicans are trying to take over California and making us learn Spanish.

Christians hate homosexuals yet priests like to sexually abuse little boys.

White people are all racist and only want to kill Indians and keep the black man down.

Homosexuals are moral heathens and are constantly shoving pushing their agenda onto my children.


Can we all agree that there is enough hate in this world and if you feel the need to bring it onto the "cyber landscape" then you must lead quite a miserable life?

I don't know about everyone else on here but I come to ATS for pleasure not to have another source of stress. It seems you can't even say something good about a group with out someone posting after you and calling what you say propaganda or having something negative to say.

You all know what I like about online communication? The boundaries of race, sex, religion, and age are wiped away. My opinion of you is solely made on what you say. It doesn't matter what god you pray too, what skin color you were born with, or who you go to bed with. These are insignificant differences online and in real life. We are all human. We all feel love. We all suffer. The world needs to grow up and stop demanding the death of our brothers and sisters.

One more thing, as far as Christianity and the poor, bashed Islam:

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" Jesus. Mathew 5:7
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you only salute your brethren, what more are you doing than others?" Jesus. Matthew 5:46-47

"Muhammed is Allah's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Qu'ran 48:29

Brit - I'm with you. I don't really go to to the War on Terrorism Site, because of some of the posts I see there.

It apparently *is* acceptable to make fairly shocking statements generalizing 1 billion people as terrorists on this site. That's Freedom of Speech for you.

In the UK, I'm pretty sure legislation against Inciting Racial Hatred could come into effect, in North America (maybe the US, not so sure about Canada) you can write what you want and to hell with the consequences. There's probably a better middle way between the two approaches.

(See PTS thread - slugfest - Muslims show hypocrasy (sic), or ATS site - War on Terrorism - Tension Rising over Hamas.

Don't think anyone has a problem with rational debate over the Middle East, lack of Democracy in Arab states or terrorism.

The problem is that 9 times out of 10 it degenerates into a slanging match. And worse.

Regards

TD

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
One more thing, as far as Christianity and the poor, bashed Islam:

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" Jesus. Mathew 5:7
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you only salute your brethren, what more are you doing than others?" Jesus. Matthew 5:46-47

"Muhammed is Allah's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Qu'ran 48:29

"But God will shatter the heads of his enemies..."
Psalms 68:21

"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [25:63]



Sure, you'll find some terrible stuff in Quoran, but you'll find some similar things in the Bible.

And, again, you will find that it is God, and not us. You quote from trhe Mecca writings, not the latter, Medina writings, also. The Mecca writings were more peaceful, and later, in Medina, the "prophet" became more violent. The opposite is true in Christianity.

thanks for making my point. I couldn't have done it without you. See the huge difference?
No, I guess not.

[edit on 4-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Grand Alchemist

Sure, you'll find some terrible stuff in Quoran, but you'll find some similar things in the Bible.

*Sniff, Sniff*

What's that smell? Ahh yes... the stench of the road that leads to moral relativism.

Jus because the Bible contains language that sounds vaguely like things in the Koran, (and of course in an out-of-context, apples to oranges comparison) doesn't mean that they're both "relatively" bad and does not mean that Christians cannot or should not stand up and critisize Islam.

Perhaps that's what you meant, perhaps not - but it sure sounds that way to me.

Is it or is it not wrong to suppress the rights and privileges of another human being because of their gender? Is it or is it not wrong for people to use violence and the threat of violence because someone mocked their religion in a cartoon? Is it or is it not wrong to strap a bomb on someone and direct them to kill a wedding party with the promise of an eternal award from their "god"? I say it is wrong. period. Pointing out that there are things "wrong" with Christians and Christianity doesn't change the "wrongness" of what Muslims are doing.

[edit on 2/4/2006 by ChemicalLaser]

Originally posted by ChemicalLaser
Is it or is it not wrong to suppress the rights and privileges of another human being because of their gender? Is it or is it not wrong for people to use violence and the threat of violence because someone mocked their religion in a cartoon? Is it or is it not wrong to strap a bomb on someone and direct them to kill a wedding party with the promise of an eternal award from their "god"? I say it is wrong. period. Pointing out that there are things "wrong" with Christians and Christianity doesn't change the "wrongness" of what Muslims are doing.

[edit on 2/4/2006 by ChemicalLaser]

Of course it's wrong, I just responded to Thomas Crowne's post which to me made it seem like the Bible is "perfect".

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, my English is not exactly good, but I'm working on it

I dislike Islam myself, but it's none of our business what kind of government other countries want. If they want an Islamic theocracy, so be it. I just wouldn't live there.

When someone bashes Christianity, I just roll my eyes and shrug. Same old, you know.

These Muslims ought to learn to shrug it off--not everyone thinks Allah is all that (and no, Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same).

Umbrax, Amethyst
Good posts.

TC

Look here, a crowd of Alabamian Christians crowding together with weapons because their places or worship were burned to the ground! Wait, I don't recognize the linen, must not be Southern Baptists.

What's the actual relevance of this? Is this supposed to convince us that Islam=Bad, while Southern Baptist=Good? I'm sure if I cared to take the time, I could produce evidence of all sorts of wickedness on the part of Southern Baptists.

The people you showed, hoisting their rifles and wearing masks, they're cowards and fools, manipulated for the benefit of more cowards and fools behind the scenes. I have no sympathy for the suffering of those who condemn themselves to a living Hell.

If you made yourself God and removed all knowledge of Islam from the minds of people worldwide, what do you think would happen? I think people would continue on as they have for thousands of years, doing terrible, terrible things, for all the right reasons. Those people you pictured think they're doing the right thing, and that isn't Islam's fault, it's the fault of the individuals and their teachers (parents, religious, school, etc.). Put the blame where it belongs.

Yup, I can see why Christianity is ridiculed all over the world, and why it is perfectly acceptable to mock the One who died for us.

Correction, the one who died because of us. Christ died trying to form a community apart from the state, apart from tradition, apart from caste and class - a brotherhood of man. What are you doing right now to advance that legacy? It seems to me you're taking a pickaxe to the foundation built by the one you purportedly worship.

Regardless of the validity of the cartoons, the fact that the Islamic world is violently protesting cartoons makes them more the target of people's scorn distrust and contempt.
As stated before, what is uncommon in other isms is expected in this particular one.

Then Islamic world is NOT protesting. Some (thousands? tens of thousands?) Muslim men are, and fewer still (hundreds?) are doing so violently. This is the logical disconnect on your part, clearly. You seem to think Muslims in general are the problem, when in fact its radicalism being promoted by a few key players (states and NGOs).

I highly doubt ignorance is applaud-worthy, but when the blind lead the blind, what else can be expected?

I may be blind (I don't think so, but one never knows), but I'm definitely not leading anyone anywhere nor do I have any interest in doing so.

The Christian is taught to pray for those who do not know the Way, not to call for those to be destroyed, to be punished and for those to go to Hell.

Since when have y'all had a unified teaching? There are about as many Christian cults as there are grains of sand on the beach. Some teach virulently xenophobic and violent, Nazi-esque philosophy of racial superiority.

When people act right they get commended. When they act wrong they get reprimanded. Racism is wrong, is it not?

Our god, the one and true G-d of Abraham, declares that vengeance is His, and by the way, He doesn't need any silly and imperfect human to act on His behalf.

The vengeful God is not my cup of tea, to each his own.

To compare Christianity, WyrdeOne, to Islam, is frought with perils for those who attempt it.

Why is that? They were both political movements. They both preached submission to the creator. They both pushed for a community of the faithful to usurp traditional power structures, and both have been used extensively by regional warlords, to manipulate peasants and indoctrinate fatalist attitudes to counter the overwhelming poverty and hardship of life.

They're tools, being wielded by various entities, benign and malignant both.

For example, to say that Jesus, who is said by the Christians to be the Christ, is violent in silence because of Hell, is to disregard the fact that He came to Earth to lead a perfect life so that He might be the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins.

In my view that's an incorrect interpretation of the events. Christ suffered and died because most of us were a bunch of goddamned(literally) petty fools who couldn't understand the message that was delivered. He didn't die so we could go right on sinning. This is Hell, and selflessly he tried to save us. He failed because we weren't ready to be saved, we simply couldn't let go.

The boy had a lot of faith in humanity. It was misplaced IMO. For the most part we're unrepentant and unworthy of happiness. When that changes, so will the state of the world.

This way, you see, we do not have to go to the place that was not designed for us, but for Satan and his demons.

I guess that's where we differ on opinion. I think we're living in a place that can be Heaven or Hell, depending entirely on how we conduct ourselves.

He did the dying for you.

No, he did the dying BECAUSE of us. I think this is a perfect example of how the teachings of a great philosopher were corrupted. Most of his disciples didn't even get it, only a couple preserved even a portion of his original intent.

Nope, such behavior is incidental and uncommon in other beliefs and isms, but is expected and can be justified in the suras and hadiths of Islam.

And those derive their authority from..c'mon..finish it out. Who's directing the violence and who's committing it? Who's supporting it financially? Who's indoctrinating kids in anti-semitism and anti-Western ideologies? It's not "The Muslim World", not by a long shot, and it's not Islam, and it's not a dead man with delusions of grandeur. It's people! Individuals with racist, superior attitudes.

The problem is when you can't see your face in the face of your enemy, and when you can see the sins of others but not your own.

Cartoons. Cartoons, man, think about it.

Yes, it's ridiculous - I can't imagine a sane individual being offended by a caricature. Notice I'm not pumping an AK in the air and burning flags? I couldn't care less what people choose to draw. But, this being a discussion board, I think it behooves everyone to avoid broad generalizations and racist comments. That was the point being made by the original post (I think), and I agree with it. Sorry we can't agree on that.

Chemical Laser

Is it or is it not wrong to suppress the rights and privileges of another human being because of their gender?

Of course it's wrong.

Moderate muslims are well aware of that fact, just as Moderate Christians no longer persecute the fairer sex. I posted a news story a while ago about a muslim woman who lead a prayer service in NY. Some were offended, but there were enough progressive Muslims supporting her that the event went off without a hitch.

Most muslim women don't wear the executioner's outfit, and most muslim men don't abuse their wives.

Is it or is it not wrong for people to use violence and the threat of violence because someone mocked their religion in a cartoon?

Yes, it is wrong. Has anyone around here defended their actions?

Is it or is it not wrong to strap a bomb on someone and direct them to kill a wedding party with the promise of an eternal award from their "god"? I say it is wrong. period.

It's quite obviously wrong. Where are you going with this?

Pointing out that there are things "wrong" with Christians and Christianity doesn't change the "wrongness" of what Muslims are doing.

Oh, that's where you're going with it. Yes, Muslims bad.

Come on..this is so tiresome. Why is it so hard to hold people accountable for their actions without spreading the blame to everyone who looks like them or worships the same?



[edit on 4-2-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Not exactly the topic, but arab bashing is a big problem too. Arab Muslims get twice as much abuse heaped on them.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
This thread made me so disappointed... :shk:

Critiques of law, individual behavior, particular preachers and their students, nothing wrong with any of that. Seeing sin in others is wonderful and all, but you can't change others, you can only change yourself. Now if only folks could turn that high-powered perception inward and put it to some use.


[edit on 6-2-2006 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 6-2-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Not exactly the topic, but arab bashing is a big problem too. Arab Muslims get twice as much abuse heaped on them.

Right. So sad because not a single muslim anywhere has done a thing to deserve the scorn being heaped upon them.

Was it you that posted in another thread about the 99% of over a billion muslims in the world being peaceful, but didn't stop to think that that same math meant that there were over 10 million non-peaceful muslims?

Seriously, Wyrde One, do you really expect me to read your isolated quote/respond style? That might make you feel good to do that, and I hope it is theraputic for you, but I am not going to read that. Seriously. How would you expect me to respond? A quote/quote/response? And then what? A quote/quote/quote/response?
Why the debate pennant; did it come with Cracker Jacks?

In case you missed it, let me spell it out for you. The ones burning down Danish embassies, threatening to take and kill people unrelated to the newspaper, generally acting like dangerous but spoiled children, are doing it in the name of their religion, and using their scriptures to back it up.
As of today, nine Baptist churches in Alabama have burned due to arson in less than a week. Do you see the same reaction? Nope. Our beliefs teach another way of responding, and you don't see one single town in Alabama with smoke rising from it because of violent protests, much less numerous places around the world. You also don't see anyone trying to throw it off on the Jews, or any other group. People on their knees have little opportunity to burn buildings and throw rocks.

Come to think of it, it's a good thing we don't see it as the Muslims do. The reaction all over the world over cartoons posted back in September is ridiculous and done in the name of Allah. Can you imagine, if we were the same way, considering the MURDERING of 3,000 people in the name of Allah back in 2001? If the response was proportional to the response to stupid cartoons, there'd have been no Muslim to protest the cartoons.

Reality check, keep it in relation and it is amazing.

In case you missed it, let me spell it out for you. The ones burning down Danish embassies, threatening to take and kill people unrelated to the newspaper, generally acting like dangerous but spoiled children, are doing it in the name of their religion, and using their scriptures to back it up.

Hello TC

I still think the original point of this thread is valid, even though it seems to be veering nicely off-topic, as usual.

Are there islamic fundamentalists who employ terror to further their aims? Yup.

Does that mean all muslims are islamic fundamentalists who agree with those aims? Nope.

Are people on these boards making the mistake of not distinguishing the former from the latter? Most definitely.

As of today, nine Baptist churches in Alabama have burned due to arson in less than a week. Do you see the same reaction? Nope. Our beliefs teach another way of responding, and you don't see one single town in Alabama with smoke rising from it because of violent protests, much less numerous places around the world. You also don't see anyone trying to throw it off on the Jews, or any other group. People on their knees have little opportunity to burn buildings and throw rocks.

Is this because religion is of less importance in the West than it previously was? I appreciate that there is a higher church attendence in the US than Europe, but in general the average Westerner is less 'devout' than the average muslim.

Even so, 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' caused a huge firestorm when it was shown on the BBC, and Christian Groups in the UK caused huge protests and effectively shut it down by threatening theatre boycotts during a tour.

www.christianvoice.org.uk...

And of course, 'Book of Daniel' was recently pulled after protests:

www.worldnetdaily.com...

And let's even not get started on abortion and non-peaceful campaigns against abortion clinics (don't want to start a debate on abortion!!) :

womensissues.about.com...

I think the new God in the West (for the bulk of the populus) is consumerism/materialism/capitialism. I don't think that the majority of the population in the West gets to upset about churches burning in Alabama because it's not *their* religion, really.

Come to think of it, it's a good thing we don't see it as the Muslims do. The reaction all over the world over cartoons posted back in September is ridiculous and done in the name of Allah. Can you imagine, if we were the same way, considering the MURDERING of 3,000 people in the name of Allah back in 2001? If the response was proportional to the response to stupid cartoons, there'd have been no Muslim to protest the cartoons.

I'm finding it difficult to get estimates of noncombatant deaths in the second Iraq war, at least *prior* to the insurrections and suicide bombings that happened *after* peace was declared. Here is the best estimate I have managed to find, of around 3,700 or so dead:

noncom dead

It's not to claim a moral equivalence between Al-Qaeda and the US, but
maybe the over-reaction to Danes printing cartoons is linked to the fact that maybe the islamic people (oops! there's me generalizing now!) regard this as part of the ongoing 'War of Civilisations' that everyone seems to be talking about these days.


TD



[edit on 8-2-2006 by TaupeDragon]

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Hello TC

I still think the original point of this thread is valid, even though it seems to be veering nicely off-topic, as usual.

....
I'm finding it difficult to get estimates of noncombatant deaths in the second Iraq war, at least *prior* to the insurrections and suicide bombings that happened *after* peace was declared. Here is the best estimate I have managed to find, of around 3,700 or so dead:

Good job, taupe --- of complaining about people veering off topic and then finishing your rambling post by doing exactly the same thing. Noncombatant deaths in the second Iraq war has exactly what to do with the thread topic of muslim bashing on ATS?

Around these parts, we call that hypocrisy.

[edit on 2/8/2006 by centurion1211]

can i just put in, that i dislike islam very much, i just dont like seing abuse heaped upon the majority whle aiming for the minority