Top 10 Hybrid Myths

Do you know how fertilizer is produced and how much energy it takes? on top of that, it should be obvious that farmland is much too valuable a resource to exhaust for some fuel, IF we get hit by an energy crisis, fertilizers will no longer be available in current quantities, depletion of soil will have dire consequencs then.

Burning food (that's what you're essentially doing when using crops for fuel) in times of surplus is still unwise.

Which is why we should setup Hydroponic ethonol plants right in the cities. Did you check out those links I posted above?

Hydro Culture sounds better as it doesn't deplete soil, but i still wonder how much energy is required to provide nutrients for the plants.

If it works, it's essentially storable solar energy, which is OK but always suffers from sunlight's relatively low energy density.

72.14.207.104...:NahszUbNkloJ:www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68888,00.html+organic+skyscraper&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1&client =firefox-a
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And since the crops would be grown with artificial lighting, servers, sensors and robots, the cost of labor would consist of a single computer technician's salary.
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this system doesn't produce (as in convert to useful form) energy it uses it, needless to say energy farming needs to be done in equatorial areas, preferably on ships for maximum exposure.

edit: sloppy terms, as pointed out by Sardion

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Long Lance]

Then you have to deal with the energy losses of transporting the fuel to the locations where its needed the most like the Northern Hemisphere.

I know this is gonna irk some people but we need to rely more on Nuclear power as well as Hydro and Geothermal if we are gonna have an economy based(partly) off of alternatives like this.

We also need to put some serious resources into efficiency of the robotics and the lighting.

LED technology is experiencing a boom in innovation right now and when it gets to the point where we reach max efficiency I can see some serious benefits to this technology. Using both Passive and Active lighting is necessary in such an endevor.

www.cleanairgardening.com...

www.ledtronics.com...

this system doesn't create energy it uses it

As far as I'm aware NO system is capable of creating energy just converting it into a usefull form we can use to do work with it. Drilling for oil then refining it may seem like we are creating energy but really we aren't, we're just liberating it after it's been stored via heat and pressure for millions of years.

Also another note, don't go thinking that Ethonol will be the cure for all our fuel woes because it won't be. The best we can hope for is a mixture of advances in Fuels, Batteries/Supercapacitors, Efficiencies in appliances and lighting, insulation, Fusion and new ways to transport stuff(like Vacuum filled Aerostats) can stave off a potential economic collapse.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by sardion2000]

How about using seaweed to make ethanol? Is that viable? If it is I see plenty of benefits to cultivating kelp-farms, as it not only can provide a source of fuel, but potentially food as well, from the seaweed itself and the animal life that will inevitably start to flourish within the kelp-forests.


P.S. - Can a mod please fix the link above? Thanks

Algea is a good source of Hydrogen-peroxide when it is exposed to sunlight and it could be a good source of fuel, though in order for it to become economical we may have to bioengineer it so it's efficiency is 10 fold then what it is right now. As far as I'm aware Sugar Cane is the most efficient at converting light into usefull substances which we can then turn into fuel.

Also someone above said that some people buy Hybrids to save on gas costs, well those people most likely failed math as the payback period even at 5 $ a gallon would be over 5 years(the payback to bring the premium down to zero(eg on par with a non hybrid car)

Also here is a link on Carbon Nanotube Capacitors which discharge energy much faster then Batteries while potentially storing just as much energy.

www.physorg.com...

[edit on 6-2-2006 by sardion2000]

It turns out my idea isn't new. I did a Google search for ethanol+kelp and came up with some

Source

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Our ultimate goal was to provide renewable fuels from the Ocean. Initially this would have been done by extracting the CO2 from the surface of the ocean and electrolyzing the hydrogen from the salt-water. With this process, we can produce both ethanol and methanol. By harvesting algae and kelp (high vegetable oil content) by roaming mid-ocean fuel ships, we could produce biodiesel. Large ship-mounted wind-turbines would produce continuous electricity for energy requirements to run the electrolyzers. The only by-product of the process (biodiesel) was glycerine, which can be made into soap or sold in raw form in the cosmetics industry. Our other research may lead us to producing SCP animal feed via methanol enhanced growth, including single cell protein, yeast, algae and C3 plants (which exhibit up to a 30 percent growth increase when methanol is applied directly to foliage). Methanol can also be used in sewage treatment plants to increase the rate of sewage processing by encouraging growth of bacteria and algae.

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Seems like a pretty good idea to me. That should end the concerns of not having enough land to grow ethanol/biodiesel crops, since you no longer use land!

Source

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Ethanol has also been criticized because it contains only a little more energy than is used in growing the crop, making the fuel and getting it to cars. The ratio is about 1.4 energy units out for every one in. But that is still higher than the net energy ratio of hydrogen, and it can be improved upon. When ethanol is made from sugars from cellulose, an abundant substance found in grasses, corn stalks, wheat straw, trees, kelp and urban organic wastes, the ratio should exceed 2 to 1.

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I'm liking this idea more and more! Reminds me of the kelp farms and tidal harnesses in that game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

Also Algae is being used in tests to sequester a significant portion of pollutants spewed by coal plants.

www.csmonitor.com...

I wonder if this method will be usable in other industries like Refining and such.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Long Lance
Do you know how fertilizer is produced and how much energy it takes? on top of that, it should be obvious that farmland is much too valuable a resource to exhaust for some fuel, IF we get hit by an energy crisis, fertilizers will no longer be available in current quantities, depletion of soil will have dire consequencs then.

Burning food (that's what you're essentially doing when using crops for fuel) in times of surplus is still unwise.

I'm a farmer, I know all about fertilizer manufacture and the cost of it. Farm land CAN be used to provide energy for this country. Every year, a lot of wheat farmers burn their fields when their crop is harvested. This wheat straw has an energy content. About 30 lbs. of wheat straw has the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. An acre of wheat produces several tons of straw. This is energy that is just thrown away every year.

Also, here where I live, a lot of produce is grown. Every year, a lot of the produce is never gathered, it just rots in the fields. Just watermelons alone, maybe 20,000 lbs/acre are left in the fields to rot because they are not perfect or there is no demand for them.

If this country would just use what is wasted every year, it would help more than people think.

Not only am I a farmer, but I am a mechanical engineer too so I know this is possible.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by MBF]

Originally posted by sardion2000

Hybrids are more underpowered then a Firefly

The Honda (HMC) Accord hybrid is the fastest family sedan on the market. The Lexus Rx400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid share the same 270 horsepower system. The Lexus GS 450h hybrid sedan, expected later in 2006, will exceed 300 horsepower with 0-to-60 performance below six seconds. And the Toyota Volta concept is a 408-horsepower scream machine. (See Hybrids for more information).

This is just wrong the Chrysler 300C Hemi has a much faster 0-60 time and way more horspower then the Accord hybrid

Accord hybrid 255 hp had 7.5 seconds 0-60 (a second slower then Honda claimed)

www.familycar.com...

The 300C SRT8 with 425hp low 5s 0-60 and ran 13s in the quarter mile

Not even close.

Even the much hyped hybrid the Lexus 450h which is not even out yet will only have 300hp and only has a claimed 0-60 less then 6 secs

Originally posted by sardion2000
Corn needs to be grown right? It is illigal to leave fields fallow right(which contributes to topsoil growth)? Do you know how many acres it takes to sustain a population the size of the US(roughly 25% the landmass of N. America)? Now add in the extra amount needed to sustain an ethonol based infrastructure and you'll see it's not entirely sustainable. Topsoil used to be above 20 feet in the 19th century. Now it's barely a meter on average and in some places it can be measured in inches.

Topsoil is basically fertile soil that is necessary for our current agriculture technology which despite widespread technology proliferation is still primarily stuck in the Victorian age when it comes to the method of farming. Composting can help remediate this problem but not completely. Conservation of energy and such.

[edit on 2-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Not trying to pick on you, Sardion. But having mistakes in a thread makes knowledgeable people think maybe other facts may be wrong, too.

1. It is not illegal to let farmland lie fallow. There are controls on how MUCH corn you may grow if you are borrowing govt money, but private property means you choose what to grow on land that you own outright. In fact, in many states, you can participate in a "cronservation reserve program" where the department of ag will PAY you to let the land rest for 10 years at a stretch.

2. Topsoil varies with microclimate. In the glacial moraines, the soil can be 20 ft. thick; but that geography is not typical of North America. In much of the desert southwest, the topsoil is an inch or less, and has been so for 10,000 to 100,000 years.

3. Low evaporation irrigation has revolutionized American farming. In 1972, the Department of Agriculture estimated that the Ogalala aquifer, which stretches from Helene Montana to Lubbock Texas, would be depleted by 1995. The study was repeated in 1992, and it was estimated that the aquifer will last for at least another 100 years at present rates.

4. The average american farm laborer produces enought food for 300 people, roughly 3 times the US population, which means the vast majority of the food (mostly corn) is exported at low profit margins. This is why proponents of ethanol and biodiesel are often from the corn belt!


Not meaning to disrupt your thread; just thought a bit more informed info helps focus the discussion.

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[edit on 7-2-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

Do you have sources for these bits of info you provided? I'm always willing to conced I was in error, but it does go against some of which I was told by people who actively work in Agruculture.

1. It is not illegal to let farmland lie fallow. There are controls on how MUCH corn you may grow if you are borrowing govt money, but private property means you choose what to grow on land that you own outright. In fact, in many states, you can participate in a "cronservation reserve program" where the department of ag will PAY you to let the land rest for 10 years at a stretch.

I'm willing to admit I was misinformed, but I would like to hear it straight from the horses mouth so to speak. Not meaning to pick on you or anything but you know ATS and hearsay ....

2. Topsoil varies with microclimate. In the glacial moraines, the soil can be 20 ft. thick; but that geography is not typical of North America. In much of the desert southwest, the topsoil is an inch or less, and has been so for 10,000 to 100,000 years.

In the desert...was I talking about the desert? Do you deny that intensive farming techniques depletes topsoil?

3. Low evaporation irrigation has revolutionized American farming. In 1972, the Department of Agriculture estimated that the Ogalala aquifer, which stretches from Helene Montana to Lubbock Texas, would be depleted by 1995. The study was repeated in 1992, and it was estimated that the aquifer will last for at least another 100 years at present rates.

I never mentioned anything about aquifers From what I've learned on that is that housing developments put a major dent in Aquifers, I've never heard many people complain about the depletion of them due to Agriculture, mostly all I've heard is the contamination of them via fertilizer and pestiside runoff.

4. The average american farm laborer produces enought food for 300 people, roughly 3 times the US population, which means the vast majority of the food (mostly corn) is exported at low profit margins. This is why proponents of ethanol and biodiesel are often from the corn belt!

This I know for a fact but the surplus still is not nearly enough to put a serious dent in Gasoline consumption (Worldwide) as corn based ethonol requires how many pounds per gallon of ethonol again? We need to start thinking "out of the box".

[edit on 7-2-2006 by sardion2000]

[edit on 7-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Nope, I don't have any web sources for you.

I was talking from personal experience, which, as you point out, is of no value when we are all anonymous.

never mind.

There are no laws that make it illegal to let land lay fallow. At least they haven't came after me yet.

There are no limits on how much corn that you can grow if you get a govt. loan either. In the past there were limits on how much you could grow if you were participating in certian programs.

" corn based ethonol requires how many pounds per gallon of ethonol again? "

A bushel of corn, 56 lbs, yields about 2.5 gal of ethanol.