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ATS -> Pro Masons?

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posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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I just ask members that in terms of degrees and intiations, how is it different than say..working on the lower levels of govt and claiming you know everything that goes on




posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 05:55 PM
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Suzy, why are you constantly trying to draw links between Freemasonry and Satanic ritual abuse? There are none as far as I can see. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Masonic Light has acknowledged that abuse takes place. He's stated quite clearly that he is repelled by it.

Why put forward the insinuation that a "good mason" will always try to downplay the reality of SRA, just because some of us aren't on board with your views on its magnitude? That's a little facist isn't it?

It comes across as : "These guys don't completely agree with me, so they must be involved in some way..."

Harsh.



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by invisibleplane
I just ask members that in terms of degrees and intiations, how is it different than say..working on the lower levels of govt and claiming you know everything that goes on


Masonic degrees don''t work on 'levels' in the same way that a company or government does. Freemasons choose which degrees to take and which not to, rather than the organization promoting them into a higher level.

Within Craft masonry there is an administrative hierarchy with Grand Officers and the Grand Master at the top of the tree. A lot of the anti-masonic claims would at least have some basis in logic if they followed this hierarchy.

So how is it different? If I worked in the lower levels of government and someone tried to tell me that in the higher levels of government you had to watch Barney videos every Monday then I would disbelieve it without knowing for sure, because as an employee I know what the mission statement of the government is and watching Barney videos doesn't make any sense.

Besides, as a freemason I don't claim to know everything that goes on in the organization, just what doesn't go on. There's a difference.



posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 03:32 AM
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I went into a Catholic Church today and yelled out that Priests have abused children and no one said anything......


but then I said 'its ok... I dont think you all know about it!!'

but it happens !!

no one, it seemed felt personally responsible...they all just prayed and felt sorry that this # had happened by some individuals wearing the Catholic hat!



posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
[See, now constantly repeating this propaganda, designed to make people less inclined to believe those who speak out, is part of the Pro-Mason info. war.


How is stating a fact supposed to be "propaganda"?


As to the horrors of being falsely accused, unless you have corrupt police or others of that ilk backing you, for the purpose of 'destroying' someone, finding anyone to proceed with laying charges is useually too traumatic for most survivers to succeed at.


Tell that to Mike Aquino, whom with his wife, was constantly harrassed for over a decade by San Francisco police "satanic crime investigators" simply because a Methodist military chaplain wanted him kicked out of the Army for nothing but his religious beliefs. Or tell it to the innocent folks who went to jail in the McMartin case, and had their good names tarnished all over American news. These weren't isolated cases: in the so-called "satanic panic" of the 80's, it happened to a lot of good people, and these horror stories can be read via the links I already provided.


ML's first quote above, is just a standard war cry to get the fearfull to enlist in the, "SRA doesn't exist, only crazy people say otherwise." propaganda campaign.


Now you're just plain lying. Anyone can read can see what I wrote. I said satanic ritual abuse has been documented only in isolated cases, and for the most part, is perpetuated by teenagers with emotional and psychiatric problems. This is indeed true.


If ML were to read the records of survivers who don't want to persue justice through the courts (often because they they know those who did the harm control the courts) but just want to 'heal', he would know how far from isolated these cases are. Not that I believe he doesn't already, but hey, that's just my concidered (sic) opinion.


What records? If they don't want to "persue justice through the courts", where are the records coming from? Who verified them as authentic?


Haven't there already been enough threads on who believes and practices what, (concluding that no one is restricted as to 'how far they will go' and no one can speak for the practices of other groups or individuals) to be suspicious of ML's claim Satanist don't believe in Satan? What an outrageous claim!


The Satanic Bible is actually quite clear in that regard. Satan, after all, falls under the Christian myth cycle. The Satanists claim that Satan is just a Judeo-Christian caricature of non-Semitic pagan deities, such as Pan and Set.


Now see, if I were to make the same insulting claims of masons, as ML made of survivers of Organized Child Sex Abuse (emotional and psychological problems; unable to withstand scrutiny, etc.) a mod. would be sure jump in and ask for 'proof', a 'clarification', whatever would make followers of the thread 'think twice' before believing 'anything' bad about any mason, but ML plays down and fobs off the survivers of the Multi Billion Dollar International Child Sex Slave Trade, without a check.


That's because you keep making all these wild claims, but haven't given an iota of evidence to back them up. If what you say is true, you shouldn't have any problem providing one or two examples that could be verified as authentic. Then, I would certainly admit I've been wrong. But, as of yet, you haven't furnished any credible examples, only off-hand generalized allusions "survivors who don't want to go to court". But if this thing is as big as you say it is, certainly somebody, somewhere, has some proof.



posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by NJE777


I went into a Catholic Church today and yelled out that Priests have abused children and no one said anything......


Ummm.....you're kidding, right?




posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:30 AM
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well yes...


but do you understand the point I am making?

Collectively, people cannot be held accountable for the actions of a few. Simple.

That is not to say it happens or it doesn't...if it does then you can't blame/label everyone. At the same time, you can't live in denial. You can't just close your eyes to the possibility that there may exist instances of SRA in any organisation by a few corrupt individuals.


Cug

posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by NJE777

That is not to say it happens or it doesn't...if it does then you can't blame/label everyone.


You know that's exactly what many of us have said all along!


You can't just close your eyes to the possibility that there may exist instances of SRA in any organisation by a few corrupt individuals.


I'd have to disagree here. Satanic Ritual Abuse can only happen in a Satanic group. Hence it's name. The Catholic Priest stuff is not SRA as it's Catholic not Satanic, and no ritual is involved. And you really can't even call it Catholic Child abuse as that really implies that it's a "Catholic thing" but it's not. It a few sick individuals thing (And a crappy cover-up by the higher ups to protect the churches good name.)



[edit on 2/8/2006 by Cug]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:49 AM
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Albert pike dogma 33

What albert pike said.
That which we must say to the crowd is - We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition.

To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General [of the 33rd degree], we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees - THE MASONIC RELIGION should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the LUCIFERIAN DOCTRINE.

If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay, the God of the Christians, whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy, and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him?

Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two Gods: darkness being necessary to light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive.

Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophic religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil.


---------
This is what albert pike had to say.
Lucifer the god of light?
This is ovius.





[edit on 8-2-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 8-2-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:16 AM
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Actually, Pike didn't say any of that. It was written by a French guy named Leo Taxil, and attributed to Pike as a hoax, which Taxil later admitted to.

By the way, all this happened in the 1890's, over a century ago. Time to update your informants, huh?




posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:20 AM
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No discussion of anti-Masonry would be complete without an extensive mention of Albert Pike. The flyleaf of a recent biography of Pike by Mason Jim Tresner describes him as "...a pioneer, a crusader for justice for Native Americans, a practical joker, a reformer, a journalist, a philosopher, a prominent Washington lawyer, and a Civil War general." For many years, he was leader of the Scottish Rite in the southern United States and he was the author of Morals and Dogma published in 1871.

Most who join Masonry have no idea who Pike was. In fact, of those who join Freemasonry, few will own a copy of any of Pike's works. And of the few who do, it will likely be Morals and Dogma - a book most admit to never having read! For about 60 years it was given to all who joined the Southern United States jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite, an appendant body of Freemasonry. Of the few who actually begin reading this ponderous 850+ page tome, few finish it and of those who do, the great majority admit that they could barely understand it. Yet despite this, anti-Masons assert that Pike and his works exert significant influence over Freemasonry today.

Morals and Dogma is a philosophical work, created by an individual who was an extraordinarily prolific writer even for an age when prolific writing was the norm. It was also fashioned in the style of Pike's time when public speaking was a high art form and Pike was known far and wide for his skills in this area. Morals and Dogma is not a manifesto (i.e. public declaration of principles, policies, or intentions) for Masonry or even for the Scottish Rite's Southern Masonic Jurisdiction. It is, rather, an attempt by Pike to provide a framework for understanding religions and philosophies of the past. Pike believed that without understanding the history of a concept, one couldn't grasp the concept itself - and thus his lengthy explanations of various religious beliefs (consistent with knowledge of those beliefs in the mid-1800s).



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
Actually, Pike didn't say any of that. It was written by a French guy named Leo Taxil, and attributed to Pike as a hoax, which Taxil later admitted to.

By the way, all this happened in the 1890's, over a century ago. Time to update your informants, huh?


I just wanted to get your opinion on lucifer, that is all.
I didint want to disinform i thought this is real because there are other pasages about lucifer in the dogma of albert pike.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Actually, Pike didn't say any of that. It was written by a French guy named Leo Taxil, and attributed to Pike as a hoax, which Taxil later admitted to.

By the way, all this happened in the 1890's, over a century ago. Time to update your informants, huh?


I just wanted to get your opinion on lucifer, that is all.
I didint want to disinform i thought this is real because there are other pasages about lucifer in the dogma of albert pike.


Because of the writing style used by Pike, many of the explanations he seeks to provide are totally lost on current day readers. Pike felt that unless one understood the complete background of a philosophy, he could never expect to understand any part thereof. In consequence, he attempted to put literally everything he'd read, learned, or 'knew' into his prodigious writings.

In the case of Morals and Dogma, it's sheer size alone keeps most people today from reading, much less understanding it. (Don't believe it? Use our Reality Gauge and get a copy from your local library. READ IT! Don't just browse and look for offensive passages which you might find if you take it out of context; actually READ THE BOOK!)

Grabbing quotes out of context (and this was, after all, a discussion of various world religions), it's quite easy to find things which will make Pike sound just awful. In context - and particularly when one considers that this is one book by one writer - Morals and Dogma simply has no relevance to the actions and activity of Freemasonry.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 10:23 AM
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I would agree with you if masons would admit that lucifer is satan.
But they dont and here comes the triky part, a lie can be seen because they say that lucifer is not satan,but albert pike describes him has something fantastic(like a god)
Why would masons contradict them self on that matter, okay if lucifer is not satan then whats all the comotion in the dogma of albert pike?
A simple man acording to them is described by pike has somthing magnificent.
It's covering a lie.
When some one trows in their face the paragraf from pike what do they do
they respond "Lucifer is not satan"what they fail to see is they
contradict pike.
It's like i'm saying it's a square and some other felow comes from my own team and says it's a circle.
The remarks made by pike are far out fantastic, i wont get in the details yet
if he takes lucifer's side if he is for lucifer doctine type i wont go there yet!
But he does describes him has a biger entity which is in contradiction with
what they sustain on this forum.
A lie if you wait long enough you can trak it down because it's sticking out from the side, thats when you notice it.



[edit on 8-2-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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Question? Have you sat down and READ the FULL Book page for page or do you recite what you have been told and are challenging it to us as Truth?

Second question? How are Masons contradicting themselves? If ONE member is being misquoted how does he then speak for the mass and as we explain matter it now us switching up?


Originally posted by pepsi78
I would agree with you if masons would admit that lucifer is satan.
But they dont and here comes the triky part, a lie can be seen because they say that lucifer is not satan,but albert pike describes him has something fantastic(like a god)
Why would masons contradict them self on that matter, okay if lucifer is not satan then whats all the comotion in the dogma of albert pike?
A simple man acording to them is described by pike has somthing magnificent.
It's covering a lie.
When some one trows in their face the paragraf from pike what do they do
they respond "Lucifer is not satan"what they fail to see is they
contradict pike.
It's like i'm saying it's a square and some other felow comes from my own team and says it's a circle.
The remarks made by pike are far out fantastic, i wont get in the details yet
if he takes lucifer's side if he is for lucifer doctine type i wont go there yet!
But he does describes him has a biger entity which is in contradiction with
what they sustain on this forum.
A lie if you wait long enough you can trak it down because it's sticking out from the side, thats when you notice it.



[edit on 8-2-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
I would agree with you if masons would admit that lucifer is satan.
But they dont and here comes the triky part, a lie can be seen because they say that lucifer is not satan,


Some Masons, just like some non-Masons, falsely believe that Lucifer is Satan. But the fact of the matter is this:

1. "Lucifer" is a Latin term that was originally applied to the Roman version of the Greek god Apollo, who was the sun god. "Lucifer" means "light bearer" in Latin, so this is certainly understandable.

2. The word "Lucifer" was added to the text of the book of Isaiah by St. Jerome. This refers to the king of Babylon, and not Satan. Furthermore, Jerome used the word here in his Bible translation simply to take a shot at St. Lucifer of Cagliari, who was a Christian theologian whom he disagreed with on the doctrine of the trinity.


but albert pike describes him has something fantastic(like a god)


Pike, in reality, did no such thing. In reality, in all of Pike's books, which compose thousands and thousands of pages, he uses the term "Lucifer" only three or four times.


Why would masons contradict them self on that matter, okay if lucifer is not satan then whats all the comotion in the dogma of albert pike?


Why do you believe that "Lucifer" has any part in the "dogma of Albert Pike"?



The remarks made by pike are far out fantastic, i wont get in the details yet
if he takes lucifer's side if he is for lucifer doctine type i wont go there yet!
But he does describes him has a biger entity which is in contradiction with
what they sustain on this forum.


Again, this is simply not true. In fact, in the third chapter of "Morals and Dogma", Pike simply refers to Lucifer and Satan as legends perpetuated by poets.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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African you didint get me, i never said that i am imposing that masons said
something regarding that their belifes are luciferians, Not yet any way,
you miss quote me.


Now for the quoting out of the book
Morals&Dogma
"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)


First of all let's see the text


"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness"

From the book
He does not say he folows him or worships him corect?corect, but how ever
you take it he does quote and reconises that he is the spirit of darknes.


Atention


From the book
"Is it he who bears the Light"

You ca not refer to Lucifer has "IT" albert pike describes Lucifer has an entity something magnificent that brings light
No planet, not venus it's HIM and not IT has described.
Let's see what lucifer means
lucis=light and fero = bear, to bring.


Masons describe him something like this "ohhh you just dont know lucifer is not even satan he is just a fallen Babylonian king"
Okay then why is he radiateing light when he fals? why does albert pike describe him has the spirit of darknes?Why does he describe him has something magnificent?

Again i didint say that pike simpatised with him, i'm just talking about how
pike describes him and for lucifer to be associated with masonary i will get in to that part later.

The bible will pofe it metter.
Isaiah 14:12-14


How you have fallen from heaven, O MORNING STAR, son of the dawn! (O Lucifer, son of the morning. ) You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.

1 Lucifer radiates light has he falls from heaven.
2 It does mention he fals from heaven
3 he is described son of the morning(morning star)
4 It does mention that he felt on earth.
5 It does describe the greed of wanting to be biger than god.

No matter if things were translated rong it's known that he has all the caracteristics above and more would be that he is the shiny one has mentioned in the genesis 3
Lucifer is a name for before he felt he shined like a star, it was the most powerfull angel and the most shining one in it's beauty, no one was like him, god made him special, because he was the shiny one and becasue god gave him power he thought he can get above god and rule for him self.

So the name lucifer is proper.
Now all i have to do is connect it to masonari.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:51 PM
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Pepsi,

Again I ask you have you READ the whole book of M&D OR are you taking what you clipped only from the internet?

Reason I ask is ANYONE can take something and make it into something else provided you'll have a group who is unaware of the actuals you can make a sentence into a Mass of incorrect truths... feel me?

Since my travels in and about Freemasonry I've heard more of the wives tails and double untruths then I can even remember.

Masons are:

Wife Swappers - that we have to share our wives in order to get in
< I wasn't even married when I joined the Lodge?

All of the Presidents of the US all have to be Masons, 33rd Degree masons
< Last President who was a Mason was Henry Ford

Masons worship the Devil because of what their Idol Albert Pike wrote in the Official Masonry Manual
< Albert Pike was not a Idol of freemasonry the M&D was not the Guide to Freemasonry, if one were to read the full book of M&D they would themselves be able to understand or possibly understand his poetic expression.

etc etc etc. lol




[edit on 8-2-2006 by African459]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 01:00 PM
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No you dont get it, words tiped in a book arent like words spoke they remain.
If he wrote such interpretation about lucifer (i didint say he quoted that he folows lucifer)but i did say that he describes him.
Just like in the bible the 10th comandments are wrote on a small part of the book, but they do matter.
A word a fraze matters as long as it's wrote down.
I will show you books of math where it says 1+1=2 and it only says it once.
Your reply is pour, if you decide to come with a argument regarding the post i made earllyer then that is something else.
Has i said better earlier takeing defensive position this early will just make you look funny to the rest of the users has in hideing something or not being able to reply.
Or let your felow masons reply for you.


Cug

posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 01:05 PM
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For the record the term "Lucifer" shows up 6 times in Morals and Dogma and 3 of those times show up within a few words of each other. so basically 4 mentions... So this has proved that Masonic Light has a mind like a steel beartrap.


Twice in Chapter 4:


To steal the livery of the Court of God to serve the Devil withal; to pretend to believe in a God of mercy and a Redeemer of love, and persecute those of a different faith; to devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; to preach continence, and wallow in lust; to inculcate humility, and in pride surpass Lucifer; to pay tithe, and omit the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith; to strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel; to make clean the outside of the cup and platter, keeping them full within of extortion and excess; to appear outwardly righteous unto men, but within be full of hypocrisy and iniquity, is indeed to be like unto whited sepulchres, which appear beautiful outward, but are within full of bones of the dead and of all uncleanness.
::SNIP::
They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.


and four times in Chapter 20


The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?
::SNIP::
Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tuphon, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.


This was found by using this command 'grep -i Lucifer *' in the dir with the html files of morals and dogma. Heh I didn't even know I had a copy of it on my hard drive. It just happened that one of the websites I have mirrored had it.




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