Africa: the Prison Continent

It is yet another Civilized Power, with its banner of the Prince of Peace in one hand and its loot-basket and its butcher-knife in the other.

Mark Twain - To the Person Sitting in Darkness

Originally posted by Seekerof
Apparently, you are still clueless as to the US economy, huh?
You did such a 'bangup' job doing this African research, and yet still find the ability to not research your own baseless assertions and commentaries made in the meantime.

Apparently you are Still in DENIAL, I see.

Some things Never Change huh?

So you find No connection between Military Industry and US Economy?

Apparently the BIG numbers associated with Military Industy and BIG Business following that are of no Importance.

Apparently the Biggest Army in the World has nothing to do with being Worlds only Superpower.

Oh, and the Fancy Links and Charts - which your probably did not like alot - come from International Institutes, such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam and Others. Apparently, they have no meaning for you. Frankly, I am not Surprised.

But this is not about US economy, or about me - its about Africa.

You mean the help that it has repeatedly recieved over the past century and simply squandered away?

Help? You mean Money, that was stoled by Corrupt Goverments, which the Western Corrupt Corporations Support?

Those corrupted governments were corrupted before those foreign interests and corporations arrived. Theory agains serves purpose here that if all those foreign corporations left, one-Africa would be worse off than it is, and two-those governments, who were corrupt BEFORE, will continue to be corrupt AFTER.

You mean BEFORE - as BEFORE the Arrival of the WHITE MAN, who Colonized the Continent, Established his Own Rule, Divided the Country with his Own Borders?

Africa can simply say 'no' to those imported arms. No one is bending them over and telling those corrupt African governments to BUY those arms. Your blame, as always, as par, is misplaced, simply the spouting of one who looks in the mirror everyday and blames everyone ELSE for his problems but HIMSELF!

So you are saying that the ENTIRE BLAME is on African People, right?

They are Responsible for this Mess they have on their Land, and that NO ONE from the Europe, USA, Russia or China has ANYTHING to do with that?

You mean to tell me, that the Cold War in Africa did not Happen and all those people that were killed by Arms supplied by either Soviet Union or United Staes were just Faking to make Africa look "poor and helpless" so that they could get more FREE help from outside?

Sure Seeker.

Colonialism is dead. It has been replaced by Globalization. You either get on the boat or get left behind, like Africa.

Cute.

And how can Africa Join the Elite Circle of the Globalized Free Market, when they do not even own their Own Resources?

Globalization is just good for ONE SIDE - the Corporate Elite.

LUCKY for You, Globalization and MILITARY Might go hand in hand.

Thats why there are US Tanks rolling in the Streets of Baghdad, and not in the Streets of Khartoum - and will soon start rolling in the streets of Teheran?

Backing up Globalization With Military Might

For globalism to work, America can't be afraid to act like the almighty superpower that it is....The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist -- McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.

[edit on 6/2/06 by Souljah]

These guys are the brainwashed patriotic type man. They don't want to see things from a real point of veiw.... Vampires have that power over people remember.

-----------------------------------

I'm calling on some recruitment, they'll probably take the piss out of me for not representing right or not mentioning something, heck, they might not even bother cause they too busy dealing with the situation rather than trying to wake up some 9-5 living human batteries out of their AA holders ... I'll be back.

Peace
Rebel - Lion



[edit on 6-2-2006 by Rebel_Lion]

Please do return and comment more, Rebel_Lion.
I wish to learn more of these "Vampires" you so eloquently speak of...




seekerof

Originally posted by Souljah
Apparently you are Still in DENIAL, I see.

"Denial" is a six letter word best suited for use by people such as yourself when called upon to back their baseless claims, Souljah. Hello?

Some things Never Change huh?

Everytime I hazard a look at your post history, I have great tendency to agree that indeed, things never change, Souljah.

So you find No connection between Military Industry and US Economy?

Oh Revolutionary Blind One, I find a connection, but that connection is nowhere to the extent that you make it to be.
Having said such, I still await your vast and illuminating links and super-duper graphs.





seekerof

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Seekerof]

Having said such, I still await your vast and illuminating links and super-duper graphs.

Ridicule of facts and statistics =

-"Denial"- is a six letter word best suited for use by people such as yourself --- when called upon to back their baseless claims

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Rebel_Lion]

Originally posted by Seekerof
"Denial" is a six letter word best suited for use by people such as yourself when called upon to back their baseless claims, Souljah. Hello?

Baseless?!?

Apparently you Live in a World of Phantasy.

HELLO indeed...

Everytime I hazard a look at your post history, I have great tendency to agree that indeed, things never change, Souljah.

Then do yourself a Favour and put me on Ignore like many others here, that can not Handle the Truth - and Truth does hurt right?

You feel Hurt yet?

See, you have Diverted the Topic of this Thread to the Poster of it.

Congrats!

Oh Revolutionary Blind One, I find a connection, but that connection is nowhere to the extent that you make it to be.
Having said such, I still await your vast and illuminating links and super-duper graphs.

OH GREAT PATRIOTIC ONE,
Live in your World of Phantasy and remain BLIND to the REAL that Surrounds your Walls of Concrete you have Built, not to be touched by the Deserts of the Real World.

So, if you have something Constructive to add to this Discussion, apart from the Intention to divert the Topic of the thread to the Poster of it, and Avoid talking about the things that really matter - please do.

If not...

[edit on 6/2/06 by Souljah]

Educate me, Rebel_Lion, where is the actual ridicule of baseless facts and statistics?

Are you a new learned follower of Souljah's half-facts and half-truths?
You have provided a prophetic saying in line with the great MacArthur, and yet, in returning, have provided nothing of substance.

Can you provide the links and fancy graphs for Souljah that I have asked of him in supporting his baseless position that the entire US ECONOMY is driven, thus profits are entirely generated, by the US Military Industry...all $11,750,000,000,000 of the US GNP?

Originally posted by Souljah
Apparently you life in a World of Phantasy.

seekerof

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Seekerof]

Seekerof you can not denied that this thread was needed and looking at many of the post is very good information and they are far from half trues.

The thread deserves some respect.

Evolution hoax exposed

Announcement of bogus "finds" of evolutionary remains ,disproves prehistoric theory of evolutionary change

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


original news source:

education.guardian.co.uk
Science news
History of modern man unravels as German scholar is exposed as fraud (heading)

The professor's 30-year-old academic career has now ended in disgrace after the revelation that he systematically falsified the dates on this and numerous other "stone age" relics.

Yesterday his university in Frankfurt announced the professor had been forced to retire because of numerous "falsehoods and manipulations". According to experts, his deceptions may mean an entire tranche of the history of man's development will have to be rewritten.

"Anthropology is going to have to completely revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago," said Thomas Terberger, the archaeologist who discovered the hoax. "Prof Protsch's work appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together. This now appears to be rubbish."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

This announcement of fraud from a formerly respected German professor is followed, in the article, by mention of other evolutionary frauds, e.g. Piltdown Man, archeopteryx etc. This is, I believe, only the tip of the iceberg of frauds to do with evolution, pushed by rationalist and humanist scholars to try and formulate a "Godless" universe.

This is an intresting thread, I'll give you guys a vote each if you can tell me the link between the this thread and that one. Certain people might find it all a bit frightening and tough to digest but we can take the fight to that forum as well if you'd like...

Originally posted by marg6043
Seekerof you can not denied that this thread was needed and looking at many of the post is very good information and they are far from half trues.

The thread deserves some respect.

Umm, I have "denied" it and am currently disputing some aspects of Souljah's commentary. Unfortunately, with such short time to spend within ATS these days, I do not have the time to go through and do an analysis of each and every baseless assertion that Souljah has made; fortunately for him.

Furthermore, each and every thread that favors your side of the perspective deserves "some respect." Spare me, Marg, k?
Each and every thread deserves "some respect," as such, arguments and dissent can still be made, despite giving the topic due respect.





seekerof

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Furthermore, each and every thread that favors your side of the perspective deserves "some respect." Spare me, Marg, k?
Each and every thread desrves "some respect," as such, arguments and dissent can still be made, despite giving the topic due respect.

Actually this thread is about Africa and what is going on and what the world is doing about, it brings dirty and ugly realities that many will like to have erased from their countries history and past.

Now I guess that with the comment on Furthermore, each and every thread that favors your side of the perspective deserves "some respect" is actually targeting me.

But rest assure that your intended bashing at me is not going to work, like you said obviously you have not gone through the entire thread.

It actually makes you comment look like that the only reason you decided to step in was to attack the source and anybody that agree with it.

Pity, I though you to be better than that.

Originally posted by Souljah
First of all,
From 1998 to 2001, the USA, the UK, and France earned more income from arms sales to developing countries than they gave in aid.
Secondly,
Permanent UN Security Council members—the USA, UK, France, Russia, and China—dominate the world trade in arms.

Lets not forget that these nations have some of the largest militaries in the world, lets not forget that these countries are some of the largest countries in the world. lets not forget that these countres are all fighting against terrorists .
Lets not forget.....

Small Arms = BIG problem

So quoting their add campaign is a good source of objectivity is it ??
Maybe I could quote from the NRA's add campaign;
Guns Dont Kill People, People Kill People

www.worldpolicy.org...World Policy - U.S. Military Aid and Arms Transfers Since September 11

Lets look behind this source shall we??
world policy center according to the washington post is a "a Mormon group established in 1997"
source
Is this your source of objectivity ??
As for Americas apparent loose laws let us see what YOUR source has to say about it. From the Source :

The United States has some of the most comprehensive laws regulating the sale and transfer of weaponry in the world. As mentioned earlier in the report, the Arms Export Control Act requires that U.S. arms transfers are used only for self-defense, internal security and in United Nations sanctioned operations. The Foreign Assistance Act bars military aid and arms sales to countries with poor human rights records. And the Export Administration Act safeguards and regulates the sale of "dual-use" items with both civilian and military application.

These statements show that the US has the strongest laws and is the most conservative exporter in the world. Only nations that meet the US guideline and are in the best interest of peace and democracy in the world receive American arms to further stability in the region. Because no war has been good for businesses in that region. This applies to Africa also.
Again lets take a look at the top American arms importers :

from the same source provided
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Egypt
3 Israel
4 Taiwan
5 Turkey
6 Singapore
7 Kuwait
8 Thailand
9 United Arab Emirates
10 Bahrain

This list is followed by Jordan, philllipines etc. Now look at these nations.
All nation in the list are partners of the War on Terror with the US. Also all these nations are extreemly co-operative with the international community. All these nations are stable and run by stable governments. And most importantly all these nations support peace and value human life.
That rules out Souljah's mendacious claims of "massive arms exports" to the African nations and also rules out the possibility of America doing little else than providing a safe and secure economy to the people of Africa and preventing them from comming more despotic rule.

"Angola has been a terrific place to do business!" - Jim Blackwell, director of Chevron
Angola is slowly emerging from a brutal war that pitched the Marxist government against rebels backed by the United States. The civil war claimed the lives of more than 500,000 Angolans and displaced another two million, ending in 2002 when rebel leader Jonas Savimbi was assassinated.

So supporting a group that seeks to bring order to a war ravaged region is a bad thing ?? The Marxists in Angola were sponsored by Russia and Supported by Cuban soldiers to help establish a communist government there during the 70's and it was America that tried to convince South Africa into giving up Namibia so that they can have a democracy unlike the Angolan Communism.
Here is what the US policy was to Angola in the 80's

Heritage Foundation
The heart of Washington's plan has been to persuade the MPLA to seek the withdrawal of the 30,000 Cuban troops from Angola. They have been there nearly a decade. The deal sought by the U.S. would trade the Cuban departure for South African cooperation in implementing United Nations Resolution 435 (1978), granting independence to Namibia, which South Africa has controlled under a League of Nations mandate granted in 1920.

The vehicle for this policy is the Union for the Total Independence of Angola--or UNITA--headed by Jonas Savimbi. In recent years, his troops have routed the MPLA and even the Cubans, and now-control much of Angola. UNITA is today one of the world's most successful and broadly supported liberation movements.

Changes the picture doesnt it ??

www.democracynow.org.../04/07/026222
"The United States will not join consensus on a final document that contains measures contrary to our constitutional right to keep and bear arms." So Bolton stated that the United States could not support a final Conference document

So supporting American right to bear arms is somehow detrimental to Africa and its people ? Moreover the US has never said that it wont support more legislation on arms sales has it ?
This conference which was the first of its kind was not supported by the US becasue it contradicts with American freedoms and this would make American freedoms illegal. So yet again, through clever manipulations and presentation of facts you have made out something that isnt there.

Ofcoures, by your FACTS, United States here does not Represent Any problem - but the Fact that AK47 is found in every country in the World (including our Slovenian army), is simply the Proof, that Russia and China DOMINATE the Small Arms Sales.

Perhaps the most naive view I've ever heard.
The Ak is found in the hands of almost ever street thug in the world. It is available freely to terrorists, small militias like the slovenian army and al qaeda. The AK has no checks to control its spread. American arms are not in any way like that. All American arms are by law ( as stated above ) not allowed into the hands of terrorists and others that seeks to destroy freedoms.
The spread of the AK only proves that Russia and China are the engines that fiuel the small arms market to the militias and terrorrists.
The American small arms market is mostly to groups that are sponsored and trained by the US govt or US allies that are in dire need to weapons to further the cause of freedom in the world.

As we can see the European Union and North America DOMINATE yet again.
White.
Catholic.
And on the Third Place, its Russia - again, White and Catholic (Orthodox) country.

So from 'the US is responisble' to the ' White man' is responsible is what you are trying to prove ?? That is simply rediculous.
The West, which excludes Russia, is not the arms supplier to the terrorists.
White and Christians have little to do with what is happenign in Africa. The problem is with the Africans and the answers are with them.

Tell me this, if United States is such a BASTION of Democracy, Liberty and Justce for ALL, why such Uncertain position expressed by mister Bolton at the UN Conference on Small Arms?

As stated earlier, the US cannot accept any resolution that seeks to portray the rights of the American people as illegal and unjust. This is contrary to the spirit of freedoms that the US stands for. Moreover the resolution is but a naive attempt to end something that is independent of the source of manufacter. It provides no restriction on nation not party to the treaty or on self produced ammuniton.
In short the Conference was a joke.

Why don't the USA Uphlod the Following Points, which were established by the proabably ONLY People who actually CARE about this Issue, that effects everybody on this Planet - IANSA; International Action Network for Small Arms:

So the only people who care about policy are those "lawyers" who have little or no political experience and no information about the reality of the situation ? While the US govt which has hundreds upon hundered of experts on the field at the ground level doing the work and they are misguided ?
The larger picture is always what is most important and god forbid that in the process of saving the order of the world we forgert to ensure that every rose bush in the world is okay !

Well that does not sound too bad - so why did mister Bolton so Blatantly REFUSE this Programe?

Well anyone behind a desk and with pencil and paper in hand can come up with his fantasy "program " the problem comes in dealing with it. Which apparently INASA has no idea about.

So, how can you PREACH to all the Other Countries that sell tons of this Weapons to Africa, when the United States does not want to support such Programme to reduce such trading, legal or illegal.

Quiet easily done. The US arms sales as I have already shown are in regions of high stability and under peacefull governents. While the same cannot be said about other nations who recklessly export weapons to countries like Angola, and other African countries.

Not only that - the United States remain the MOST Armed nation in the World, in numbers of Small Arms used by Civilans.
And lets not forget, that United States are the Country with the HIGHEST Military Spending in the World.

How does Ameican civilian gun ownership effect the African populace ??
Also lets not forget America has one of the largest and most highly trained militaries in the world protecting the freedoms of not only its citizens but most og the people of the free world from tyrany and oppression by the forces of Terror.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Umm, I have "denied" it and am currently disputing some aspects of Souljah's commentary. Unfortunately, with such short time to spend within ATS these days, I do not have the time to go through and do an analysis of each and every baseless assertion that Souljah has made; fortunately for him.

You HAVENT DENIED ANYTHING - you are just Using EMPTY and Hollow Words, coated with Insults, to degrade the Author, that is ME, to a somewhat, Lying, Distorting and above all, DISSRESPECTFUL human Being.

So tell me, when are you going to really BASE all Your BASELESS Counter Arguments of Mine, which are not Few, and put your Money where you Mouth is? Fortunately for me you say - is that like the time when you said you are goin got "Get back on me on the DU Topic"?

Furthermore, each and every thread that favors your side of the perspective deserves "some respect." Spare me, Marg, k?
Each and every thread deserves "some respect," as such, arguments and dissent can still be made, despite giving the topic due respect.

And since we ARE TALKING about me right now, and not the Topic, I am going to talk about YOU. You definetly LOVE the word Futhermore, don't you? It gives you a Sense of Power to use it and I have noticed that president Bush also likes to use it.

Either way - I guess if my Posts do not Deserve YOUR respect, then YOUR posts do not DESERVE my Respect.

Still I will do a Foolish thing and Answer your Questions, which have Nothing to do with this Thread at all.

But here we go anyway:

I always like to start with a Quote.

J.W. Smith - The World’s Wasted Wealth 2

The wealth of the ancient city-states of Venice and Genoa was based on their powerful navies, and treaties with other great powers to control trade. This evolved into nations designing their trade policies to intercept the wealth of others (mercantilism). Occasionally one powerful country would overwhelm another through interception of its wealth though a trade war, covert war, or hot war; but the weaker, less developed countries usually lose in these exchanges. It is the military power of the more developed countries that permits them to dictate the terms of trade and maintain unequal relationships.

What does THAT Tell you Mister Seeker?

That ECONOMY and the MILITARY have nothing in common?

That if a Country has a Strong Military, that is the BASIS for Strong Economy?

That a Country with Strong Military CAN USE THAT MILITARY on Less Developed countries, to accept Their TRADE DEALS and their trade Demands?

FURTHERMORE,
A Country with the STRONGEST Navy and Air Force basicly Rules this Planet, and Rules the Resources of this Planet. That's why US Navy is the Biggest Navy this world has ever seen - for can You imagine what would happen, if somebody would suddenly start sinking all those Pretty, Long Tankers, Loaded with Oil from the Middle East that are Sailing to the Coast of North America? See here in Europe, Russia and in China We do not have these problems, because a PIPELINE can be built and the Oil or Gas can flow without problems. But America NEEDS that Navy to control the Oceans and the Seas so that the Oil keeps Flowing!

J.W. Smith, Economic Democracy; The Political Struggle for the 21st Century

When the blatant injustices of mercantilist imperialism became too embarrassing, a belief system was imposed that mercantilism had been abandoned and true free trade was in place. In reality the same wealth confiscation went on, deeply buried within complex systems of monopolies and unequal trade hiding under the cover of free trade. Many explanations were given for wars between the imperial nations when there was really one common thread: “Who will control resources and trade and the wealth produced through inequalities in trade?” All this is proven by the inequalities of trade siphoning the world’s wealth to imperial centers of capital today just as they did when the secret of plunder by trade was learned centuries ago. The battles over the world’s wealth have only kept hiding behind different belief systems each time the secrets of laying claim to the wealth of others’ have been exposed.

And As European and American Economies grow, they needed to continue Expansion to Maintain the high standards of living that of the Elites. This required holding on to, and expanding colonial territories in order to gain further access to the raw Materials and Resources, as well exploiting cheap labor. Those who Resist WILL be met wiith brutal repression or Military Interventions.

Even U.S. President Woodrow Wilson recognized this in the early part of the 20th century:

"Since trade ignores national boundaries and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market, the flag of his nation must follow him, and the doors of the nations which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions obtained by financiers must be safeguarded by ministers of state, even if the sovereignty of unwilling nations be outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained or planted, in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or left unused."

See Mister Seeker - Capitalism, Militarism and Globalism go HAND IN HAND, and I bet that the Ruling Elites are not giving up their Share of this Planet so easy. For it is CORPORATIONS, Not GOVERMENTS that Own Countries - Your Land of the FREE Included.

Defense Secretary William Cohen, in remarks to reporters prior to his speech at Microsoft Corporation in Seattle, put it this way:

"[T]he prosperity that companies like Microsoft now enjoy could not occur without having the strong military that we have."

And Right he Is. FURTHERMORE,

"The defense secretary is making the case that conflicts in faraway lands such as Bosnia, Korea and Iraq have a direct effect on the U.S. economy. The billions it costs to keep 100,000 American troops in South Korea and Japan, for example, makes Asia more stable—and thus better markets for U.S. goods. The military's success in holding Iraq in check ensures a continued flow of oil from the Persian Gulf"
as concluded the Associated Press dispatch reporting on Cohen's Seattle appearance.

Backing Up Globalization with Military Might

Tapping into this lucrative bottomless well of funds, the "Big Three" weapons makers: Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Raytheon now receive among themselves over $30 billion per year in Pentagon contracts. Companies like Lockheed Martin are actively engaged in shaping U.S. foreign and military policies. Their efforts have yielded among other things: the "payoffs for layoffs" subsidies for defense industry mergers such as the Lockheed/Martin Marietta merger; the elimination of royalty fees that foreign arms customers had been paying to reimburse the U.S. Treasury for the cost of weapons developed at taxpayer expense (this adds up to a loss for taxpayers of roughly $500 million per year); and the creation of billions of dollars of new grants and government-guaranteed loans to support the export of U. S. weaponry Pentagon contractors, conservative think tanks and advocacy groups lobbied heavily and successfully for the "Star Wars" missile defense program.

The bombing and missile strikes are, more than ever, giant bazaars for selling the wares of the armaments manufacturers. An article in USA Today said: "The USA's defense equipment, such as the satellite-guided smart bombs, has stolen the international spotlight as NATO air forces pound Serbian forces. That could mean increased foreign interest in U.S. military equipment...." Raytheon spokesperson David Shea was quoted: "We are expecting the Kosovo conflict to result in new orders downstream." Then in early June, just after President Clinton signed the bill appropriating $12 billion in emergency military funding, officials at Raytheon announced that replacing munitions used in the Balkans could lead to about $1 billion in new contracts.

No wonder stock of the large military manufacturers shot up. Since the beginning of the war against Yugoslavia, March 24, 1999, the stock price of Rockwell International (maker of the Lancer, B-1 bomber, etc.) was up 48 percent; Boeing Aircraft (maker of the B-52 Stratofortress, etc.) up 30 percent; Raytheon Systems (maker of the Tomahawk cruise missile, HARM missile, etc.) up 37 percent; Lockheed Martin (maker of the F- 117 Nighthawk, F-16 Falcon, etc.), up 18 percent; and Northrop Grumman (maker of the B-2 bomber, etc.) up 16 percent 29 Jaynatha Dhanapala, U.N.

Under-Secretary-General for Disarmament Affairs, said recently that "television coverage of modern warfare has effectively created an 'advertising dividend' for the manufacturers of high-tech weaponry and the countries and alliances that use such weapons... He observed that during the 1991 war in the Persian Gulf and the recent NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, tiny video cameras enabled hundreds of millions of viewers to "experience vicariously" the flight paths of attacking missiles to their intended targets.

Geee that is so Nice.

Wars are Creating PROFITS.

You don't even have to Fight for Resources anymore, as the Kosovo Campaing shows us, and if you read the Underlined and Bold text above, that is kind of OLD, you can ask yourself - WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY as the War in Iraq is not nearly Finished?

Man, the Busienss must be BOOMING.

PROFITS must be AMAZING.

Maybe thats why Wall Street recorded all time high raise of the Dow Jones in last 20 years - with the start of the Invasion in Iraq.

Not to mention the Entire Affiar of PETRO-DOLLAR POLITICS - which ofcourse you will not Accept as Real, but discard them as petty liberal propaganda.

Ofcoures, all of these are BASELESS Asumptions, right?

So please, spare me the talk about BIG BAD TERRORISTS and how your so-called Goverment is Fighting them Hard and Proud. It was never about any Terrorism - it was always about PROFITS and ECONOMY.

It is not Islamic Fundamentalism - this is MARKET FUNDAMENTALISM taking shape and form, and with the Mass Media in their Hands, what can go wrong?

The Washington Consensus policies, however, were based on a simplistic model of the market economy, the competitive equilibrium model, in which Adam Smith’s invisible hand works, and works perfectly. Because in this model there is no need for government — that is, free, unfettered, “liberal” markets work perfectly — the Washington Consensus policies are sometimes referred to as “neo-liberal,” based on “market fundamentalism,” a resuscitation of the laissez-faire policies that were popular in some circles in the nineteenth century. In the aftermath of the Great Depression and the recognition of other failings of the market system, from massive inequality to unlivable cities marred by pollution and decay, these free market policies have been widely rejected in the more advanced industrial countries, though within these countries there remains an active debate about the appropriate balance between government and markets.
Joseph Stiglitz, Globalization and Its Discontents

Still - this is NOT About Globalization and the Military Might.

It is about Africa.

And yes you were right - they ARE being left behind.

By the same Corporations, that OWN YOUR COUNTRY!!!

Originally posted by Rebel_Lion
................
Please join the discussion from a better veiw point than to simply claim we're being 'anti-west' when we're pointing out that the west seems to be anti-3rd world and millions of our people are dying in the process.

Read and check facts then come back and chat.

Thank you.

i have read the facts and i have posted the facts, and you are being anti-western when you try to ignore that Arab nations have done as much or worse damage to Africa than the western world did, and right now it is not the western world who is raping and ravaging Africa, unless you want to claim that all the janjaweed Arab militia, and those in power in the government of Sudan and every other extremist Islamic country are just white men dressing and disguising themselves as Arabs.... I am sure Souljah will try to claim this someday...

Originally posted by Rebel_Lion
Its called capitalism, a failing concept that can't last as one day there won't be anything left to capitalize off of... or the people will get pissed off at their situation and revolt, which is pretty much the story of many third world nations... followed by sanctions and unfair trade practices.

Oh, i see...so you do have an agenda against Capitalism..... no wonder, and tell me what form of goverment or form of economy are you trying to imply will solve all the problems in the world?

Originally posted by Rebel_Lion
Anyway, your point is?...

My point is that Souljah always tries to change history to his liking so that he can place the blame on the west and on the U.S., when the fact proves that there have been other nations who have raped, and continue to rape Africa, but now that the truth about this has come up Souljah is trying to claim that we are being anti-Islamic for showing the facts.

Originally posted by Rebel_Lion
These guys are the brainwashed patriotic type man. They don't want to see things from a real point of veiw.... Vampires have that power over people remember.

And guys like you two are the "Revolutionary type" that want to destroy imperialism and provoke even more deaths around the world....

Millions of people have died because of those same "ideas" that you two are trying to spread around....

"Rebels" or "revolutionaries" like the two of you have caused millions of deaths and much suffering around the world, and imperialism had nothing to do with this.

Look at some of the real dictators around the world right now....they also call themselves "revolutionaries and rebels."

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Souljah

So, the Goverment of Saddams Ex-Regime, was a Threat to the West and the United States and had to be removed, because Saddam was such a terrible Dictator and such a big terrorist supporter, right? He Exploited his people, he killed his people and he HAD to be removed right? At all cost..............

First of all Souljah....is Iraq part of Africa now?.....

i thought this thread was about Africa, unless it is only about blaming the U.S., which is almost always what you do in every thread....

Second, Arabs enslaved Africans for 10 centuries, before the Europeans arrived, and there is still slave trade made by Arab militias.

Weren't you trying to tell the truth about the situation in Africa?......

I guess over 10 centuries of enslavement by Arabs suddenly were erased by Souljah and his minions, or the enslavement of Africans by their own people before that....

BTW Marg 10 centuries of castrating people, mutilating people so they could not escape, cutting their thumbs so they won't be able to open doors and in many cases cutting people's tendons because they have tried to escape, among some other things is not horrendous?

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by IAF101
Lets not forget that these nations have some of the largest militaries in the world, lets not forget that these countries are some of the largest countries in the world. lets not forget that these countres are all fighting against terrorists .

AND what does that have to do with these Five Countries, being also the TOP ARMS SELLERS to the Third World Countries in the World - and the majority of their Customers are Human Rights Violators and Terrorist-Dictator Regimes.

Lets not FORGET.

So quoting their add campaign is a good source of objectivity is it ??
Maybe I could quote from the NRA's add campaign;
Guns Dont Kill People, People Kill People

Really CUTE - you Quoting National Rifles Association.

Also a Member of NRA are you?

I bet you just Love Charleton Heston - and I bet that he also Loves the BOOMING Business of Small Arms today!

These statements show that the US has the strongest laws and is the most conservative exporter in the world. Only nations that meet the US guideline and are in the best interest of peace and democracy in the world receive American arms to further stability in the region. Because no war has been good for businesses in that region. This applies to Africa also.

So? Do the Laws represent anything today, apart from the most probable option that it will get BROKEN? And I am sorry, but you got it all Wrong in your second statement - America Sold arms to some of the most Oppessive Dictator Regimes, and still is. Like Saudi Arabia. Remember them? Oh, I forgot, you do not have a problem with Saudi Arabia at all. You do not have a problem with their SEVERAL Violations of Human and other basic Rights that they braek down there - as long as the King of Saud is a BIG Friend to the House of Bush, all is GOOD.

Now I guess you skipped the following FACTS, but lets read them again, shall we?

WORLD POLICY INSTITUTE

• The United States transferred weaponry to 18 of the 25 countries involved in active conflicts
  
  
• More than half of the top 25 recipients of U.S. arms transfers in the developing world (13) were defined as undemocratic by the State Department
  
  
• When countries designated by the State Department’s Human Rights Report to have poor human rights records or serious patterns of abuse are factored in, 20 of the top 25 U.S. arms clients in the developing world in 2003—a full 80%—were either undemocratic regimes or governments with records of major human rights abuses.

If you do not LIKE the Source, it does not mean it is not TRUE.

But I guess Some people really hate to look themselves in the Mirror.

Again lets take a look at the top American arms importers :

from the same source provided
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Egypt
3 Israel
4 Taiwan
5 Turkey
6 Singapore
7 Kuwait
8 Thailand
9 United Arab Emirates
10 Bahrain

This list is followed by Jordan, philllipines etc. Now look at these nations.
All nation in the list are partners of the War on Terror with the US. Also all these nations are extreemly co-operative with the international community. All these nations are stable and run by stable governments. And most importantly all these nations support peace and value human life.
That rules out Souljah's mendacious claims of "massive arms exports" to the African nations and also rules out the possibility of America doing little else than providing a safe and secure economy to the people of Africa and preventing them from comming more despotic rule.

Such a Hypocritical List of Countries - most of them with ALOT of Oil and members of OPEC, which is being ruled by Saudi Arabia and therefore ruled by the Carlyle Group, which basicy rules the Planet. As I said before, Saudi Arabia is one of countries in the Middle East with the worst record of Human Rights violations, and ofcourse lets not forget Turkey and what they have done to the Kurdish population, which was almost the same as Saddam did. And OFCOURSE, Isreal - which is ILLEGALLY occupying territories of West Bank and Gaza Strip from 1967, which is the longest military occupation in recent history, that was targetted with 32 UN Resolutions, which were ALL Vetoed by the United States.

What a Nice Company!

So supporting a group that seeks to bring order to a war ravaged region is a bad thing ?? The Marxists in Angola were sponsored by Russia and Supported by Cuban soldiers to help establish a communist government there during the 70's and it was America that tried to convince South Africa into giving up Namibia so that they can have a democracy unlike the Angolan Communism.
Here is what the US policy was to Angola in the 80's

Come on - just Admit it already! United States and Soviet Union were BOTH Responsible for Supporting Terrorists and Dictatorship Regimes around the Globe for their "Higher Purpose" - some for so-called Democracy others for so-called Socalism. Don't make me start with the CIA Latin America Campaign, and what was happening there in the Name of DEMOCRACY...

That is another Story - this is about Africa.

Changes the picture doesnt it ??

No - that does NOT change ANYTHING.

So supporting American right to bear arms is somehow detrimental to Africa and its people ?

It just tells alot of your Culture - the Culture of Guns, Money and Power.

Not Democracy, Liberty and Justice for all...

This conference which was the first of its kind was not supported by the US becasue it contradicts with American freedoms and this would make American freedoms illegal. So yet again, through clever manipulations and presentation of facts you have made out something that isnt there.

Actually it Contradicts the Small Arms Sales around the Globe - not in Americas.

All American arms are by law ( as stated above ) not allowed into the hands of terrorists and others that seeks to destroy freedoms.

What about the Arms that are Smuggled and Sold "Above" the Law?

You think that the Corrupt Corporations and Individuals from the United States do not get alot of Money by selling non-American Small Arms?

The spread of the AK only proves that Russia and China are the engines that fiuel the small arms market to the militias and terrorrists.

No - AK is a Rifle that was produced in the BIGGEST numbers ever. That is why it is so Spread across the Globe, because there was so many of them being made. And thats they are cheap.

So from 'the US is responisble' to the ' White man' is responsible is what you are trying to prove ?? That is simply rediculous.
The West, which excludes Russia, is not the arms supplier to the terrorists.
White and Christians have little to do with what is happenign in Africa. The problem is with the Africans and the answers are with them.

Well, where are the Small Arms Factories?

Where are the Small Arms Magazines?

In Africa?

In the Middle East?

You said it yourself, that AK is the Rifle most used in the World - was it made by Islamic Terrorist Fundamentalist Regime? Nope. It was made by Russia. Which is a White, Catholic Orthodox Country. Period.

In short the Conference was a joke.

Exactly the TYPICAL United States Answer - like the UN Resolutions targetting ILLEGAL Isreali Occupation of Palestinian Land is a JOKE right?

Seriously - you are not going to get far with this Hypochrisy...

Well anyone behind a desk and with pencil and paper in hand can come up with his fantasy "program " the problem comes in dealing with it. Which apparently INASA has no idea about.

What Problem is that?

The Imaginary and Phantom TERRORISTS?

Quiet easily done. The US arms sales as I have already shown are in regions of high stability and under peacefull governents. While the same cannot be said about other nations who recklessly export weapons to countries like Angola, and other African countries.

Sure, Sure.

Just like United States NEVER sold any Weapons to ANY South American TERRORIST Regimes, right? That just did not happen, huh?

Also lets not forget America has one of the largest and most highly trained militaries in the world protecting the freedoms of not only its citizens but most og the people of the free world from tyrany and oppression by the forces of Terror.

You work for Karl Rove or something?

Anyway, are you done with Hijacking this Thread?

Don't forget, you can always create your own and Bash the Evil Communisty, Terrorists, IslamoFasists, Liberals and other Pinko-Hippie-Propaganda - or just visit this thread; I am sure you will find alot of common things to talk about there.

[edit on 8/2/06 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Muaddib
First of all Souljah....is Iraq part of Africa now?.....

Nope.

i thought this thread was about Africa, unless it is only about blaming the U.S., which is almost always what you do in every thread....

So, when you are DONE talking about me you can always talk about the topic of this Thread - which is, if I am not mistaken - Africa: the Prison Continent.

Second, Arabs enslaved Africans for 10 centuries, before the Europeans arrived, and there is still slave trade made by Arab militias.

Europeans enslaved, Africans, Native Americans, Asians, Arabs, Native Australians - well just about the ENTIRE GLOBE.

Did I forget anybody?

Weren't you trying to tell the truth about the situation in Africa?......

Yes, but Apparently People do not want to face the Truth, because if that Truth Involved United States then it is NOT the Truth anymore.

I guess over 10 centuries of enslavement by Arabs suddenly were erased by Souljah and his minions, or the enslavement of Africans by their own people before that....

And I always thought of you as an Intelligent Member of this Community...

BTW Marg 10 centuries of castrating people, mutilating people so they could not escape, cutting their thumbs so they won't be able to open doors and in many cases cutting people's tendons because they have tried to escape, among some other things is not horrendous?

Hmmmm, I thougt that happens in Saudi Arabia also - you wanna BASH THEM?

I guess not - it would not go along with your PATRIOTIC Agenda, right?

Hey, I told that to a certain member before you - just go to this thread and you and your buddies will have alot of common material to discuss!

Originally posted by Souljah

So, when you are DONE talking about me you can always talk about the topic of this Thread - which is, if I am not mistaken - Africa: the Prison Continent.

Lol....Souljah, you are truly a lost case. You try to turn this thread into another bashing of the U.S., if anyone looks at your original post they can see this clearly. You were the one who started talking about what the U.S. is doing in Iraq, not me. Showing the truth behind your post and showing the truth about this thread is what I am trying to point out.

Originally posted by Souljah
Europeans enslaved, Africans, Native Americans, Asians, Arabs, Native Australians - well just about the ENTIRE GLOBE.

First off, Europeans haven't enslaved the whole world..... There were many attrocities done by Europeans, and the U.S. also but i don't think that either one is the sole reason for the problems in Africa.

Africans and Arabs committed many attrocities against their own people before the west ever went to Africa, and they are still doing it, but you do not want to see this. You want to claim that the West, and in specific the U.S. is "the evil that plagues the world." Sorry if facts hurt you and do not serve in your agenda of hatred towards the west and the U.S.

Anyways, back to the topic, didn't the Muslims enslaved most of the world? Weren't they trying, just like Muslim extremists these days, to make the world submit to Islam? I showed that Africans have used their own people for their own gain and that Arabs did the same for over 10 centuries, and now the Muslim extremists are trying to do the same in Africa and every other country.

Originally posted by Souljah
Did I forget anybody?

Yep, you forgot to mention Africans and Muslims have done the same in the past and are now doing the same. But I guess that's not part of your agenda huh Souljah?

Originally posted by Souljah
Yes, but Apparently People do not want to face the Truth, because if that Truth Involved United States then it is NOT the Truth anymore.

Souljah.... your sole purpose on threads like this one is to try to blame the west and the U.S. in specific for what African warlords and Arab militia backed by islamic governments are doing. You are not trying to show the truth.

Originally posted by Souljah
And I always thought of you as an Intelligent Member of this Community...

Oh boy..... and me showing the truth does not prove that I am intelligent instead of agreeing like an idiot on everything you or anyone else says whether or not it is true?....

Originally posted by Souljah
Hmmmm, I thougt that happens in Saudi Arabia also - you wanna BASH THEM?

And Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country is it not?

BTW do you want the western world to declare war against every nation in the world that is Islamic?

The Saudis are responsible for many attrocities, but i think they are trying to fight against terrorism, or at least are trying to make the world believe this is what they are doing.

Originally posted by Souljah
I guess not - it would not go along with your PATRIOTIC Agenda, right?

If by patriotic agenda you mean trying to find the truth then I guess i am very patriotic.

Originally posted by Souljah
Hey, I told that to a certain member before you - just go to this thread and you and your buddies will have alot of common material to discuss!

and what exactly does this prove?

BTW in response to your claim that the U.S. is the one that gives more weapons to African nations here is a link which we have to thank AceofBase for.



img145.imageshack.us...


Thanks Ace.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Muaddib]

Can you please provide the full website for that ^graph^ please?

-Who are these ''all other europeans''?
-What are the arms relationships between these ''all other europeans'' and the major countries in Europe?
-Where are these weapons made?

I'm playing catch up here, the info on that graph is below this post.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Educate me, Rebel_Lion, where is the actual ridicule of baseless facts and statistics?

This is an adult debate.

If you haven't read the past posts please do so and come back with a veiw point.

when you try to ignore that Arab nations have done as much or worse damage to Africa than the western world did

Yes the Arabs are bad and no I'm not anti-west. Its obvious that you are pro-west and will do anything to defend your standing. Your Sig makes that obvious.

Again this thread is abuot Africa but extends into the 3rd world in general. The west built itself up upon the theft from and enslavement of peoples from the third world.

The Arabs didn't hack off the noses of the Egyptian statues.

The Arabs didn't ship millions of peoples across the seas burning and destroying almost any evidence of civilization to back up claims that black people are not worthy as human beings and have contributed nothing to society. In fact you'll find that Northen Africa was and still is Arab.

Oh, i see...so you do have an agenda against Capitalism..... no wonder, and tell me what form of goverment or form of economy are you trying to imply will solve all the problems in the world?

One that dosen't feed off of the backs of other nations whilst pretanding to fight for freedom across the world... Prehaps if people were left to their own devices rather than compared to a society that has no religious standing or faith anymore. That is why Muslems don't like the west along with other nations that still have their culture.

'We' here in the west claim to be an advanced nation of racial unequality, insurance, pointless taxes, mortgages, weapons manufactures and the like, promoting a 'freedom' that is not real but allows for a cultureless society where people are easily tricked by the state.

You say I'm 'anti-west' but as your sig shows you are simply defending a system and probably won't budge, you'd rather pick up a weapon and shoot people that disagree with you than listen and actively (as in mentally conect with rather than feel threatened by) engage (not in military terms) in a conversation.

I am not anti west, all I ask for is Fair Trade Laws and cultural freedom where my people are not compared to other nations as though one has some kind of godly idealology of right and wrong.

My point is that Souljah always tries to change history to his liking so that he can place the blame on the west and on the U.S., when the fact proves that there have been other nations who have raped, and continue to rape Africa

You've left out part of my post.

I agree, other nations do steal from Africa but the scale of wrong doing lies with the western states. Its as though people in the west are held in perpetuation, thinking that Africa still hasn't recovered from slavery and that the people are lazy when the scales have been tilted against those people. To still be carrying on something that was supposed to have ended so many years back is terrible, I mean heart breaking terrible. They even manage to fool people like yourselves and others on here into thinking that it has nothing to do with them while my family are out there... again pointing out that this is a serious topic and isn't one for people to jump on and comment on without at least getting some facts or reading up on the past posts.

You're talking to someone whos family members could be in trouble right now and I'd be helpless to do anything. lol. Whos family/friends are in trouble right now and I can't do anything.

And guys like you two are the "Revolutionary type" that want to destroy imperialism and provoke even more deaths around the world

Good to see that you recoginse what we are fighting and probably have some knowledge on it. To be honest I'd rather people die whilst trying to rebuild a broken continent than a constant suffering and death of those people for nothing but another nations gain... especially when things dont have to be that way.

i thought this thread was about Africa

Ok, I take back that last comment, you obviously don't know too much about imperialism. This thread applies to the 3rd world in general, including some Arab nations.

Went back on myself trying to catch up.


[edit on 8-2-2006 by Rebel_Lion]