Africa: the Prison Continent

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posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
Paul of Nisbis,

First of all, are we talking about Africa here? Or the Islam. I for one definetaly wasn't talking about Islam here. There are other threads for that.


Seeing the role of Islam in the decline of native black African civilizations, how can we discuss Africa without mentioning it, especially when some people in this thread want to put the all blame on Christian Europe? And, in fact, aren't Christian blacks still being kept, right now, as slaves by Muslims in Sudan?


Originally posted by TheBandit795And wasn't Egypt one of the wealthiest and most powerful cultures on the planet? One of the cradles of western civilisation??


Well, Egypt was in Africa, but I don't think it was black, as opposed to Ethiopia:

Jeremiah 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?"

If Egyptians were black, I think Jeremiah would have used them as the closer example. I can concede the ancient Egyptians for the sake of arguement, but even that granted, their decline and fall would have nothing to do with Christian Europe.



Originally posted by TheBandit795How about the Ethopian emprire which was also wealthy and powerful in it's peak times.


What distinguishes Ethiopia from Ghana, Songhai, etc. is that Christianity, which they received from Egypt (which was Christian by peaceful converison for centuries before Islam invaded them) enabled them to flourish even when all other African civilizations crumbled before Islam. It is no accident that they were the last African country conquered by a European power, and only for a brief time, by the fascist [godless] Italy.

(Western civilization, with its inviolable individual self from whom the state does not have the power to take certain rights from is a product of Christianity (see John Locke), it did not inherit that concept from classical pagan civilizations of Rome and Greece. Fascism, Communism, etc. are all rejections of that and attempts at reaching back to a God like state where the individual is expendable.)

[edit on 2-2-2006 by Paul of Nisbis]




posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Paul of Nisbis
An example of what? Two religions don't exist in peace when they mingle into one artificial mess. If anything, the Muslims will hate them even more, Christians and Jews at least get the option of serfdom if they bow before the Muslim aggressor, but I doubt it will be extended to this group, who will be considered Muslim heretics to be wiped out. All they are doing is weakening the resolve of Christianity, making it easier for the Islamic virus to spread and destroy that country.

I knew people would start Diverting the Topic to typical Islamo-Bashing - which is very Fashionable today. Tell me, besides spreading across the North and parts of West Africa, how has Islam Plaqued Africa? Has the Turkish Empire Colonized the ENTIRE Continent? Have the Exploited its Natural Resources for their own Greedy purposes? Have the made big Money by trading with slaves, gold, ivory and spice? Yes, the Muslims were the first to reach African people, but they had never Exploited and Conquered it like the European colonists.

And Islam is NOT a Virus - it's a Religion.

And the News I have posted is an Example, how this two Religions CAN live & exist in Peace - but I guess that is an Artificial Mess for some people like you. Apparently you think that Christianity is somehow Superior and that Muslims are the Aggresor - but when Christian Colonists do the same, that is not called that.

[edit on 2/2/06 by Souljah]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
And the News I have posted is an Example, how this two Religions CAN live exist in Peace - but I guess that is an Artificial Mess for some people like you.


Once again, that is not two religions living in peace, that is a desperate attempt at appeasement within a country where the Muslims are engaging in yet another attempt to impose Islamic law.

I could lecture you some more on the benefits of western civilization, and Christianity, but what's the point. Good luck with learning Arabic.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Paul of Nisbis
Once again, that is not two religions living in peace, that is a desperate attempt at appeasement within a country where the Muslims are engaging in yet another attempt to impose Islamic law.

It is not a DesperateAttempt - it is a COMPROMISE, if you know the meaning of that word. It is something, that YOU or any other Religious Fundamentalists of ANY religion is not Capable to do. For you there is no Allah - just Your own God. But the Problem is, that the most simple Philosophy, that these people have adopted, is so pure and above all true, that the majority of the people just turn away and say - bah, thats pathetic!

And FACT is that the SAME Sun Dries Muslim, Christian and Jewish clothes at the end of the day...



I could lecture you some more on the benefits of western civilization, and Christianity, but what's the point. Good luck with learning Arabic.

Please do Father Nisbis.

You mean the Benefits of Globalization?

[edit on 2/2/06 by Souljah]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Compare China with Africa.

-Both were completely balkanized by a slew of European colonizers. England, France, Germany, Netherlands were active in both situations, and supported each other's inherent rights to Empire at the same time they competed amongst themselves to see which empire could get the largest.

-Both situations were a welter of small ethnic communities, largely undeveloped, that were practically enslaved to feed European mercantilism.

-Farmers in both areas were forced to switch from subsistence farming to cash crops that served only European markets.

-Multiple occupying forces in the region, while rivals, came to each others' aid in times of widespread uprising. Boxer rebellion is the classic example.

So how did China throw off the imperialist yoke?

While Chinese culture seems monolithic to westerners, the fact is that there are a welter of Religions, dialects, and lifeways that are mutually exclusive.

So, how did China throw off such oppression and become a world power itself? Africa has natural resources that equal or surpass China's.

Leaders like Mao and Chang Kai-shek had a task of unifying many ethnic minorities in the midst of their civil war. Surely, the Imperial powers tried to use both of them to re-insert themselves into China, but failed.

It is not like China was self-ruling before the Europeans got there, either. While Africa was oppressed by muslim slavers, Chiina had been ruled by a non chinese minority (the manchu people) since 1611 AD, with the imposition of the alien "Quing" dynasty . . . . Roughly the same time-period of European colonization of Africa.

After the loss to UK in the first Opium War, the Quing rulers gave into every western demand, even granting newcomer imperialists like Japan and the USA trading posts, land, and cash payments.

And, more that native African Leaders like Shaka Zulu, the Quing absolutely refused to modernize, knowing that modernization meant the end of minority Manchurian political and social hegenomy. The Western Powers were aware of this fear, and exploited it to an unbelieveable degree.

So what is the difference here? If anything, the African cultures had a much longer exposure to european technology & military, and could have evolved alongside.

Why did China develop and gain both independence and Unity (while the Europeans backed first the Quing, and later Chang, at every turn?)

.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:36 AM
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dr_strangecraft,

I'm not sure many historians would consider the Manchurians a truly foreign, non-Chinese power. China has been united, one way or another since 221 BC. I don't think they're a good example to use when trying to make a comparison with Africa. In the middle ages, their technological development was on par with the Europeans and they had a massive trading fleet, visiting Europe, East Africa, Asia, and perhaps the New World. Sub-Saharan Africa did NOT have more exposure to the west than China. China was trading with Europe since the days of Alexander the Great. Europeans really only became interested in Africa in the 1400s-1500s.

Another point: Africa has had powerful empires rise up and take control of large areas of land, such as Great Zimbabwe. Yet none of them managed to conquer the majority of the continent and last.

Anyway, I'm interested in what your answer is to the questions that you've put forth.

[edit on 2/2/2006 by Flinx]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
You were right - you DONT WANT to KNOW, thats your problem. If you did, your mind might have reacted differently. Or not.

Skipping past your theatrics;
I said what I and many others feel about the campaign of misery that has continued for the better part of this century in our media and there is no sight of an end to this. Day in and day out for years on end all we see is images of misery and decapitaion from Africa. No matter how much money is thrown to stop this the situation doesnt get any better. Every month a new drama unfold in that continent. This in turn brings yet another round of misery filled multimedia. To add to this we have propaganda style messages, preying upon compassion and questioning people's morality. It is not that I or others dont know what is happening in Africa, I know very well that they are having a hard time but if decades of aid have not helped, then clearly that is not the soluion to the problem.


Frankly, all the Aid that comes to Africa is NOT ENOUGH, if it were, there would not be Wars, Famine, Starvation, Diseases and DEATH all over the Place. And did you know that PRIVATE DONATORS give alot more then any Goverments or Companies?

The West cannot be held as the excuse for the misery in Afrika, doing so is nothing but a vain attempt to cover up the inherent incompetence and apathy of the people. Moreove the US in particular has not had any colonies, what ever external support they might extend to any govt is upto the govt to decide. IF the support is considered as against the countries interests then they should abstain from accepting such help. Surely they know what is and isnt good for them ?
There are WARS because there are militias and war lords who want to wage war not because companies suply guns. If not the West these warlords would get them elsewhere. IT is the AFRIKAN warlords that are the problem.
Famine and Starvation is because of a lack of planning and governmetal effort to counter the food short fall .Also it is the lack of interest of the people in wanting a better society. If they dont want to exert themselves inorder to want change they will dwindle into oblivion.
I remeber that India faced massive drought when the British left and now they produce a large excess of food even though their population is one of the greatest in the world. Yet people still die out of starvation in India. Starvation is not a product of the inavailability of food.
Death and Disease are also rampant in Afrika and who is responsible for this ? Surely the Europeans who have left decades ago have conspired to bring misery upon the people? NOT . The only cause for this is lack of education adn the reason there is inadequate education is because the people dont pay enough importance to it and apply enough pressure on the people who rule to have more schools.
In short all of Afrika problems can be solved if only the people of afrika were more dynamic and assertive than what they are today. Theri fate is determined by them and them alone blaming someone who isnt there is pathetic excuse at best.
About Private donation, the only people who give more than corporations are the people who run the corporations ( Ex: Bill Gates etc ). Corporation usually give more than private induviduals.


Exactly. Thats why America has SUPER SIZED MENUS, so that the realy FAT people can Thrown the Extra Pounds of French-Fries - oops I mean FREEDOM-Fries

Spare me your attempts at caricaturizing the WEST. If you have no POINTS to add, I think you should stop posting. Such kind of drivel is useless.
[quote
Thats why America is throwing 50% of their FOOD TO WASTE, which is also creating an Enviromental Problem, with all the Menthane that the rotting food gets out.

WHAT ???
Where did you come up with that ?
Even if the food was never eaten and let to rot naturally the same amount of methanel gas would be produced !

Is this the best you can come up with ??


You have given them NOTHING but empty Hopes and small packages of food - when in fact they need somebody to BUILD them Farms and Infrastructure -

And I am sure given time they would want a refrigerator, TV, Playstation and a car- all financed from the pockets of foolish westerners who actually have jobs and DO work !
You have still not answered my basic question, why is the West supposed to give them anything ? If its colonialism then the US doesnt need to spend a dime on them !


So now its they have to cope with it, when before you said there is nothing wrong with their Enviroment, and that they should live like they did thousands of years ago.

Apparently you have forgotten what you've said about rapid desertification of Afrika. I implied that if such conditions exsist ( like dertification
) then the Afrikans should deal with it in any which way they know how. Their battles are their own, just as the Western worlds battles are our own.
They have survived the dertification of the SAHARA and thrived I am sure they can live unassisted now without aid too. They just see the West as an opportunity to slack off and get fed for doing no work. Now that sort of culture has culminated into a whole lifestyle.


THE HELP GOES TO THE JEWS not the PALESTINIANS! If you did not notice, Palestinians DO NOT Live in Isreal - they live in West Bank and Gaza Strip,
Yet the United States still give FREE Military Technology to Isreal,

Now are yu going to teach me about Israel ? The Palestinians live in the West Bank ??

The "JEWS" are the ones who provide the Palestinians with jobs, civic ammentites like electricity, water etc. Also almost all the hospitals receive aid from the Israeli authority, not to mention food donations. Dont preach to me about something you have no idea about ! Trying to divert the topic is of no use as well, this is about Afrika isnt it ??
Why dont you talk more about Afrika and less about the West, Israel and me.


All I am saying si that, WE - as the Human Race, as the CITIZENS of this PLANET - can Togather, Make it BETTER, FOR EVERYONE! Not just for the Few, Rich - but for everybody! PEACE AND JUSTICE FOR ALL - remember?

Who said that all the citizens of the world are makign the place a better place for the rich ?? Its the other way around. And also about the global citizen platitudes, spare me! If Begging solved all the problems then I wonder why anybody would work ??



Errr, the West has Enormous Resources, because they STOLE alot of it in the Past.

Really ? If the West has so many resources I wonder why they still import oil, minerals, etc all of which are availabe in plenty in Africa. Also isnt Afrika the largest producer of gold ?? They also have oil, natural gas. I wonder what else they need to be given to them on a silver plater so they might condecend to work again !



But, you are practicly GIVING Free Aid to Isreal, why not the Africans, a People that REALLY need it. It is not like Isreali's are starving and dying from simple curable diseaes, is it?

The US gives aid to Israel because it is mutually beneficial to both countries. Why does this mean the US should give similar amount of aid to Afrika ??
Why isnt Slovenia giving more aid to afrika ? why does it spend 300 million on a small country which is smaller that even Israel ?? Why is that the rest of the world takes a back seat approach to the whole situation and look expectently on to the US ?? We are not the purse of the world. There is no point in giving aid to afrika, when the world ignores them and they realize this that is when they will wake up to the reality of the situation and mobilize to do what it takes.


And I think the Asia has a little bit different Climate, then the Africa. Yes, Asia was once also colonized but the White Man, but their history is alot different and their way of life.

ASia might have different climate, which only mean they have differnet problems, which they deal with. They dont appear on TV and start a beggathon do they? In fact I remember that during the Tsunami, some contries like India acutally refused aid ! I wonder how they can do that even after what the "Colonial "powers "stole" their resources! It is because they have realised that what happened in the past is no excuse for slacking off in the present and THAT is the difference between them and Afrika.
Singapore today is one of the most vibrant economies in the world, it was colonized by the British and brutalized by the Japanese. Yet they have reached where they are now. Its is called the human spirit and like you if they kept finding out the reasons they cant succed they might as well have ended up as a small fishing village.



The US prolonged the rule of Zairian dictator Mobutu Sese Soko by providing more than $300 million in Weapons and $100 million in Military Training. Mobutu used his US-supplied arsenal to repress his own people and Plunder his nation's economy for Three decades! To top it all, His family holds his fortune, and his country holds his $12 billion debt - in a nation with an annual income of $110 per capita, each resident theoretically owes foreign creditors $236.

Again you have perverted the truth to suite your agenda. Maybe the antiwar.com or talkleft.com site from where you are blindly quoting the figures have forgotten to mention that the govt of Congo had only 2 of the six provinces under its control in 1961 and Patrice Lumumba, the commisar from mother russia was intent on spliting Katanga from Congo thereby removing the only mineral resources form the region and ensuring that the moderate govt under Adoula would come crashing down making it easier for the Marxists to swallow it whole. To stop this from happening, the US tried under the UN to resolve the conflict without leading to any sucession. However despite that the Marxists-Leninists set up a govt and tormented their people, conveniently this lasted just as long as the Soviet Union and in 1990 they decided to democratise it again.
Your attempt at twisting fact is almost as dispicable as the vain excuses used by the africans to conceal their own inabilites.


They are not BEGGING - they are DYING as we speak! That is not Begging, that is a CALL FOR HELP.

Is it ?? Apparently that 'call for help' has been going on for a better part of a century ! If they were 'dying' I wouldnt be able to hear them anymore but instead they have now permanetly supplanted themselves into the media and refuse to end their beggathon anytime soon. A sort of decolonialism, exploitation of the rich !


So you see a Dying man on the Street, you can see that he is in PRETTY Bad shape, what do you do?

Call 911 so that I can drive out without having to drive around him .



So it is YOUR WISH to Give one Third of 14 Billion dollars worth of ARMS to known human rights abusers? It is YOUR WISH to transferre weaponry to 18 of the 25 countries involved in active conflicts?

Human rights abusers ? You mean the Palestinians ? Then you are right, the US aid to Palestine is indeed unecessary. As for the 25 countries, it is obvious, they would need the money to contend with the conflicts wouldnt they ? If their was no conflict they could do without the aid.
Also giving aid in some cases can bring about a reversal in a situation where the people of the land do the work for themselves and the aid is merely a catalyst in their progress. But not people who start a subsistence culture which depends on western aid.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Compare China with Africa.

I must say an Interesting Observation and Comparison.




-Both were completely balkanized by a slew of European colonizers. England, France, Germany, Netherlands were active in both situations, and supported each other's inherent rights to Empire at the same time they competed amongst themselves to see which empire could get the largest.

Agreed. With a little Difference. Africa is Much closer to Europe, which means that the European influences can be stronger and more efficient. For example, if a Rebellion breaks out in China, the European colonizers, have to send reinforcements half way across the Planet - in Africa they just have to send them South.



-Both situations were a welter of small ethnic communities, largely undeveloped, that were practically enslaved to feed European mercantilism.

I disagree. China had a prior history of a Chinese Empire, which was United and Big before the Western colonizers arrived. Africa never had a King who would Unite the entire Continent to say - like Chinese had. It was far easier to Divide and Conquer African people then it was to do the same to Chinese.



-Farmers in both areas were forced to switch from subsistence farming to cash crops that served only European markets.

True. I would just add, that African climate is alot different from Chinese.



-Multiple occupying forces in the region, while rivals, came to each others' aid in times of widespread uprising. Boxer rebellion is the classic example.

True. However, IMHO the Chinese people had not Suffered and Endured as much as the African did - there was no BIG Slave Trade of Chinese people, like it happened to African.



So, how did China throw off such oppression and become a world power itself? Africa has natural resources that equal or surpass China's.

You are talking about Apples and Oranges here. China is a COUNTRY and once was an EMPIRE - African Continent NEVER was an EMPIRE and never was a BIG, Country like China. You can not compare a Country to a Continent.



Leaders like Mao and Chang Kai-shek had a task of unifying many ethnic minorities in the midst of their civil war. Surely, the Imperial powers tried to use both of them to re-insert themselves into China, but failed.

So you saying that Africans need some Communism?




It is not like China was self-ruling before the Europeans got there, either. While Africa was oppressed by muslim slavers, Chiina had been ruled by a non chinese minority (the manchu people) since 1611 AD, with the imposition of the alien "Quing" dynasty . . . . Roughly the same time-period of European colonization of Africa.

Yes, but you have to Remember then even in the first Chinese Empire arised even in around 200 BC - a United Chinese Empire under the Ruling of Emperor Qin. Chinese have a History of Unity and a History of Empires - Africans do not have that.



And, more that native African Leaders like Shaka Zulu, the Quing absolutely refused to modernize, knowing that modernization meant the end of minority Manchurian political and social hegenomy. The Western Powers were aware of this fear, and exploited it to an unbelieveable degree.

Shaka Zulu was a member of a Small Tribe, that united the people of Southern Africa. He did not united the entire African People - like for example first Emperor of China Qin did. So it is hard to compare the two - one was a famous Chieftan, the other an Emperor



So what is the difference here? If anything, the African cultures had a much longer exposure to european technology & military, and could have evolved alongside.

I think the difference is in History of both. But as I said, Africa is a continent, not a Country or a former Empire like China. It is hard to compare that.

However, thank You for an Interesting View of the African Situation.

Love the Avatar!





posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Attero Auctorita
Do we really need moderators calling people, who they believe they have a superior view to, son? Show a little class.


Yes my son, and FYI, I call my best friends "son" sometimes...



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Paul of Nisbis
Seeing the role of Islam in the decline of native black African civilizations, how can we discuss Africa without mentioning it, especially when some people in this thread want to put the all blame on Christian Europe? And, in fact, aren't Christian blacks still being kept, right now, as slaves by Muslims in Sudan?


Then start a new thread. I for one was not talking about any religion in this thread. You and others are bringing religion up here.


Well, Egypt was in Africa, but I don't think it was black, as opposed to Ethiopia:


When I talk about the United States, I don't leave out Hawaii.

When I talk about South America, I don't leave out Surinam.


What distinguishes Ethiopia from Ghana, Songhai, etc. is that Christianity, which they received from Egypt (which was Christian by peaceful converison for centuries before Islam invaded them) enabled them to flourish even when all other African civilizations crumbled before Islam. It is no accident that they were the last African country conquered by a European power, and only for a brief time, by the fascist [godless] Italy.


Why are you making this thread aone about Christianity vs the other religion? Please explain that to me.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

I disagree. China had a prior history of a Chinese Empire, which was United and Big before the Western colonizers arrived. Africa never had a King who would Unite the entire Continent to say - like Chinese had. It was far easier to Divide and Conquer African people then it was to do the same to Chinese.



You're statement about apples and oranges is certainly true. On the other hand, there had been major African Empires. The Ghana Empire and Mali Empire being two examples. Great Zimbabwe encompassed as much land as the Roman Empire had, and was contemporary with early Quing.

It's also important to point out that "China" is a political as well as geographic term. The Song dynasty only ruled about a third of what we consider the modern Geography of the People's Republic. And the Quing, tho titular head of much of central china, actually "ruled" in conjunction with local warlords who gave lipservice to Quing culture. Much like the Ptolemaid and Seleucid generals who ruled the Greek "empire" after Alexander.



True. I would just add, that African climate is alot different from Chinese.


But you're not arguing that climate is the reason for the subjegation of Africa, are you?




True. However, IMHO the Chinese people had not Suffered and Endured as much as the African did - there was no BIG Slave Trade of Chinese people, like it happened to African.



I would be hard pressed to rank the relative sufferings of people in history. If you are a slave, it does't matter whether you are a housemaid or a field-hand. You cannot rest without your liberty. Period.

And whether it is institutional slavery, opium imported to dull the people's will, or sharecropping on a plantation, it does't less the gall of opression for the million, yearning to breathe free.




You are talking about Apples and Oranges here. China is a COUNTRY and once was an EMPIRE - African Continent NEVER was an EMPIRE and never was a BIG, Country like China. You can not compare a Country to a Continent.


Certainly true. On the other hand. Are you saying that you must have been an empire in the past for people to acheive self-determination? Neither Mao nor Chaing Kai Shek would have agreed.



So you saying that Africans need some Communism?




Mao was doing good as long as he was liberating. So was Chaing. Both turned out to be Imperialist-style expropriators of the common-man's property and destiny.

Thanks for the thot provoking dialogue. But boss man cometh.


[edit for quotes later]


.

[edit on 2-2-2006 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
It's true that the European empires fell but with the exception of the Russians they generally aren't living in poverty today.


So..? Europeans were living in poverty for 1000 years, which ended with the discovery and colonization of new continents and importing incredible amounts of valuable resources from those countries, of which the colonized countries usually did not see or receive benefit from the fruit of their own land.


Also, this thread seemed to put the blame for the collapse of the African civilization on the Europeans but as myself and others have pointed out many of those regions were colonized by the muslims before the Europeans began to colonize them. Some of the regions fell into decline even before the muslims showed up.


Yes I know. But I posted those links for you to prove a point. Africans have been able to create wealthy and advanced civilisations that were pretty much equal to European civilisations at the time.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Tell me, besides spreading across the North and parts of West Africa, how has Islam Plaqued Africa? Has the Turkish Empire Colonized the ENTIRE Continent? Have the Exploited its Natural Resources for their own Greedy purposes? Have the made big Money by trading with slaves, gold, ivory and spice? Yes, the Muslims were the first to reach African people, but they had never Exploited and Conquered it like the European colonists.

And Islam is NOT a Virus - it's a Religion.

Well I will say that you are severly misinformed if you think Islam had no significant role in perpetuating the Afrika condition for so long.
Moreover, I think what was refered to was Islamic fundamentalism.

Northern Africa hosts some of the most active and powerful fundamentalist Muslim movements. They have some of the most fundamentalist elements of Islam in that region with exception to the Iran-Pakistan-Afganistan belt.

[bSudan is under the Islamic rule since the ouster or democratic government by the military in 1989 and wa lead by Sadiq al-Mahdi. This infamous individual has not only commited genocide of non-muslims repetedly he has laid the fundation for decades of unrest. Due to Sudans natural resources the military has been able to easily radicalize the nation persecuting the Chrisians and in effect starving them for refusing to succumb to the muslim faith. One of Islams many exploits include :

United States House of Representatives, Committee on Foreign Affairs
May 20, 1992

To summarize a complex situation, Mr. Turabi helped turn a poor country in the throes of a decades-long civil war into one of the most wretched places on the planet. The Christians of the Sudan face imposed starvation that recalls the Stalinist famine in the Ukraine. Rather than deliver food, the Sudanese air force has responded by bombing relief sites. Of the regime's many barbarisms, perhaps its outstanding accomplishment lies in its forcing some 400,000 Christians out of their homes and into the barren desert; thousands have already died and many more are in jeopardy unless rescued immediately. Among relief workers, the Sudanese authorities are known as the "Khmer Rouge of Africa"-accurately, for they may be mounting a killing field unmatched since Cambodia's.

Turabi even had the gal to secretly divert foreign aid meant for the Sudanese Christians to Iraq during Desert Storm to fight Against the allies.
And are we forgetting Darfur where the killing just cant stop. Another Arab league nation is yet again massacring a minority and the entire Islamic world is silent. The world merely concentrates on the refugees while the Islamic fundamentalists run rampant with massacre which is also known as Jihad to the rest of the muslim world.

www.refugeesinternational.org...
In order to keep the Sudanese Liberation Army and the Justice Equality Movement from controlling any territory in the Darfur region, the Islamic government in Khartoum has employed a campaign of terror in which Muslim women from Darfur are victims of rape conducted and directed by Muslim men from the Arabic nomadic tribes known as the Janjaweed.

“As you have raped me, please don’t leave me alive… kill me with your gun” begged Almina to her rapist. “May shame kill you” was the reply of the Janjaweed militiaman who raped her on July 4th.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 01:22 PM
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Yeah the Arabs were persecuting Africa 800bc times, their way of life is much better suited to that region than that of the Crusaders and many African states are now Islamic. Its a terrible fact that most can't digest that Europe still has a major influence in the affairs of the third world.

Aparthied is still going on in South Africa for example and its the flawed Capitalist system that does it. Islamic countries actually pay tax to their poor and have a brotherhood thing going on unlike the flailing west that still needs to keep a rich and poor divide to survive.

The infighting is down to desperation, no one wants to shoot anyone for no reason, poverty creates desperation and crime. If it was as simple as, ''everyone put the guns down'' it would have happened already... this thread is actually proof of what a great black leader in south africa stated, most white people simply can't understand the situation and should stay out of it. Its not as though any of the ''critics'' on here actually know about the situation in Africa or the rest of the Third World, they're just on here commenting and running around in circles. The proof is there, go to Africa, go to South America and see it, read and study it... something that those ''critics'' wouldn't have done because they have no intrest (or family) in those countries.

I could slate Nelson Mandela, a posted figure of freedom, he did a lot but its done nothing, Africans are still suffering in South America living in the ghettos on their own land, much like the Amer-Indians did before they were wiped out, its something you opposers on here can't grasp and just don't understand.... the debate isn't moving along at all.

Egypt was populated/created by black people, again more miseducation, the media in the west will lie and it can't be trusted, propagander is the flavor of the day... The pyramids aren't simply symbolic of Egypt, they originate from Sudan, check it out on the net; www.crystalinks.com... The core of it is sun worship, I won't go into Melanin and Alchemy thats too much for those on here it seems.

This is all childs play, its a fact that what went on with slavery has left a nation devastated and those nations who perpertrated the crime are still profiting from it, medical trials, oil contracts, the theft of diamonds/minerals. When those poor nations stand, much like Saddam and Iraq did and say that they want REAL money for their nations produce they are shot down by those nations. Its pointless even bickering over it.,, most white people know this but feel helpless to do anything and therefore go the other way. Funny how they state that black people don't do anything for themselves when its so blatant.

Malcom X
MLK
Steven Biko

and so many more undocumented freedom fighters get shot down for doing as I stated above. Its not as though the french are going to be happy to see their Ivory Coast reclaimed by its rightful owners.

''Critics'' on here should take a new stance and state that its nessary for them to do what they're doing to uphold their nations 'dominance' over the world. It'd make more sence than disbeliving whats in from of your eyes.

lol.

Could take you on a trip out there if you'd like.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 01:30 PM
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This is just something that I saw recently which pertains to African Turmoil.

I recently watched a documentary on the Discovery Times channel about Liberia's second Civil War, the documentary was called Liberia, an UNCivil War, lets just say it really highlighted some key points. The people of Liberia had always thought of the US as their ally and in this instance looked up to us to help them out. They were asking the US almost on a daily basis to send Marines to restore peace as the fighting intensified in 2003. Instead of helping them out we did nothing, we couldn’t even give them a straight answer. We kept giving false hope when we knew full well we weren't going to send in troops. Now, the rebels were fighting for a just cause, they wanted to remove Charles Taylor, who in my opinion deserved much worse. Charles Taylor could have been removed through international pressure, he did not have to be removed via a bloody Civil War. Once Charles Taylor left for exile African Peacekeepers came in to stabilize the region until democratic election could be held.

In my opinion the US missed an opportunity to show those people that we did care, and that we would help out. We could have easily stopped the civil war. This Civil War for me not only illustrated the lack of US involvement in this issue but also the ineffectiveness of the UN, the UN also did not send any Peacekeepers to help out.

The reason the US did not get involved in my opinion is not good enough. We feared that we would get bogged down and have to commit long term, when in reality we really didn’t. The rebels were offering to stop the fighting if the US stepped in and removed Charles Taylor. Taylor also claimed that if the US were to step in he would leave for exile. In the end we figured it would be best to let them fight it out and let the rebels remove Taylor by force, instead of actually doing something


I basically gave you a summary of what happened but I could never describe to you the looks of desperation an hopelessness in the faces of those people. They looked up to us and we let them down. You may think by reading this that we made the right decision, however reading about something and watching it unfold uncensored are two different things.

In 2005 two years after Taylor's exile Liberia in its first democratic election since Taylor took power elected the first female head in African history and she was inaugurated in 2006. What's remarkable is that they did all of this largely on their own.
This should be the future and model for Africa, free democratic elections, no monarchies and no dictatorships.


In the run-off election of November 8, 2005 between soccer legend George Weah and former finance minister Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, Johnson-Sirleaf became the first female elected head of state in African history. She was inaugurated on January 16, 2006.

Liberia


[edit on 2-2-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken

Africa has certinaly been exploited historically, but when the west left they often left countries well on the way to first world status, Rhodhesia, Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana. What happened after that is the responsability of the new states themselves.



Yes they did leave good influences behind but more so the disappointment of the people when they took with them no only part of their natural resources but also the relationship with the governments left behind that didn't included the people, they instead were oppressed during occupation and they still oppress after.

The people more often than not were not prepared for the vacuum that occupation left behind




The problem is that you can't take tribal based groups and weld them together to become nations from the outside, as the west tried to do.


This is very well said, you know exactly what the social structure in Africa is all about.

Neither UK or the US can change the way of life of people in a certain area when it comes to what they are, believe or rule by.

US has tried and many others with not good results because changing people's believes or way of life never works.



It has to be an internal intrinsic change of the people themselves. Thats why the new nations failed, they are based on artificial borders and tribal groupings. They also imposed western ethics and social structures upon people unready and unable to live in that manner.


Good point also, like I said before just because it works for us in this part of the world it doesn't mean its going to work for everybody else.

Then when the people is left behind the struggles between corruption and different views that are alien to that particular region creates chaos and destabilization.

That along with desperation creates violence and when education is not available it brings the mess we now see in Africa.



When the western "leaders" left, the people reverted to more traditional practices and societies. African nations have to develop their own way forward, the western template of a good society is not necessarily the right one for every people. This is exactly the issue facing Iraq.


Bingo!!!!!!Also when they left the struggle to retain and maintain the identity became a fight for power.




That working through takes generations, it also takes a degree of honesty and self awareness admitting that their society has problems that only they can take the blame for. People can't call themselves victims forever, they eventually need to stand on their own feet and start afresh.



I agree, but without education and the west supporting corrupt governments already established in Africa because some corporate links is never going to work.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Rebel_Lion

Islamic countries actually pay tax to their poor and have a brotherhood thing going on unlike the flailing west that still needs to keep a rich and poor divide to survive.


The Islamic countries don't seem to be doing any better the the Europeans when it comes to wealth disparity. In fact European nations are at the top when it comes to an equal share of wealth, while Latin American and African ountries are at the bottom.

List of countries by income equality



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

I knew people would start Diverting the Topic to typical Islamo-Bashing - which is very Fashionable today. Tell me, besides spreading across the North and parts of West Africa, how has Islam Plaqued Africa? Has the Turkish Empire Colonized the ENTIRE Continent? Have the Exploited its Natural Resources for their own Greedy purposes? Have the made big Money by trading with slaves, gold, ivory and spice? Yes, the Muslims were the first to reach African people, but they had never Exploited and Conquered it like the European colonists.

And Islam is NOT a Virus - it's a Religion.



[edit on 2/2/06 by Souljah]


are you kidding me? The arabs sold more africans into slavery than anybody.....who do you think brokered those deals between europeans?
The muslims are also responsible for some of the worse atrocities in africa. Souljah seriously, you have a very skewed view of things

[edit on 2-2-2006 by XphilesPhan]

[edit on 2-2-2006 by XphilesPhan]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Tell me, besides spreading across the North and parts of West Africa, how has Islam Plaqued Africa? Has the Turkish Empire Colonized the ENTIRE Continent? Have the Exploited its Natural Resources for their own Greedy purposes? Have the made big Money by trading with slaves, gold, ivory and spice? Yes, the Muslims were the first to reach African people, but they had never Exploited and Conquered it like the European colonists.


The Islamic empired colonized quite a lot of Arfica, a third or more as far as I'm aware. Those Islamic empires were just as exploitive as the Europeans were and, as mentioned by XphilesPhan, the muslims were active in the slave trade when the Europeans arrived.



BBC

Mohammed Ture Askiya promoted Songhay in the Muslim world. He went to Mecca. He visited the Caliph of Egypt, who in turn made him Caliph of the whole of Sudan. Sudan was a loose term for a large area in sub-Saharan Africa usually embracing Mali, Chad, north west Nigeria, and Niger. In government matters, he took the advice of three distinguished jurists, or qadis. Generally the government of the Askiya dynasty was more centralised than that of the Mansas of Mali.

TRADITION AND TRADE
Some aspects of traditional religion were preserved, including the sacred drum, the sacred fire, and the old types of costume and hairstyle. As in Mali, there was a privileged caste of craftsmen, and slave labour played an important role in agriculture. Trade improved under Mohammed Ture Askiya, with gold, kola nuts and slaves being the main export.


[edit on 2-2-2006 by AceOfBase]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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The west is built on the back of others, including the Arab nations (Laurence of Arabia). The camera crews missed the applause Yasser Arafat used to get in UN meetings from the 3rd world nations.

Its been calulated that Europe can't even afford to pay back those who have been enslaved. It runs into Trillions. The Jews played a major part in it as well through insurance of ships etc... Look into the history of Wall Street, a wall built to keep back the smell of dead slaves.

The Islamic countries don't seem to be doing any better the the Europeans when it comes to wealth disparity. In fact European nations are at the top when it comes to an equal share of wealth, while Latin American and African ountries are at the bottom.

Prehaps a mistake I've made, not all nations measure their prosperity in monetary terms. The Saudis and others make sure that everyone gets a fair share of things. Its something most don't pay attention to 'we' in the west think that money is god whereas knowledge is a means for prosperity in the East. Totally diffrent thinking.

The main problem is that certain nations have taken control of the industry in the third world, Water (if there is any) and other amienities are controlled externally, things like schooling are also controlled from the outside.... its a weapon of war in itself, if you can take over the schools of a country you'll have their children in your hands.

Most Africans, and again this is almost non debateable and something I prehaps shouldn't even comment on for fear of ridicule of my people, are actually ashamed to be African. Its devastating. Their culture has been taken away from them, even their language in many places (the Ivory Coast) and through schooling they have been taught that their ancestors were evil and that they were lesser beings to their european counterparts (evolution theory).

What their people have achived isn't taught to them and its left to us/them, to find out what has been contributed to society... the school system even perpetuates this in the West, denying the fact that Africans have been around for a very long time and have even travelled to England and fought alongside the Romans and against the Spanish.

Most would assume that Africa was ''founded'' by some group as though the continent dosen't near enough touch Spain and Saudi Arabia. Its made out as though they were monkeys swinging in trees before the great white hope came and taught them how to use their brains. The tribes of Africa live in the conditions they do through choice after being scattered from their once great civilizations. The battle won against them wasn't easy, it took hundreds of years and only came about with the invention of the machine gun and other weapons.

Ancient Africa








We had/have Samauri;

(Tribal Avengers. Read the blurb info; www.amazon.com..., they wear the same type of clothing as Samauri in China)

Whats needed now is the handing back of that industry. Something Europe isn't quick to do... and yes the Chinese have invested intrest in the continent as well. No handouts and aid its industry thats needed but as I mentioned everytime a group of people try to do something they are taken down by arms traders, diamond dealers and other nasty figures who profit from the nations poverty... even the medical industry, wouldn't want to know about trials out there let me tell you.

Those people get taken advantage of in this 'civilized' world of evolution.




[edit on 2-2-2006 by Rebel_Lion]





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