Does Ballistic Missile Can Attack Aircraft Carrier Successfully?

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posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 01:14 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
I meant no electronics onboard. To use GPS you need passive listeners. And those radars can only detect re-entry and/or launch signatures.
How can you detect a free falling object??


Like I've already said RADAR, the US has had systems in place since the 1960's ever heard of BMEWS and DEW and now they're deploying the new X-Band radar to Alaska. They can EASILY detect re entry vehicles.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by mad scientist]




posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 01:17 AM
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Also the DSP birds in orbit will detect the thermal bloom of an ICBM launch as well.

Someone mentioned GLOSNASS. That system is on the verge of collapse and I doubt it could get your car to the local 7-11 let alone provide the signals needed for such an accurate targeting.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 04:21 AM
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Yes, yes.. but can they track the vehicle after re-entry once it goes "cold"?



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 04:26 AM
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Yes, they can. It is still going to have a radar return coming off the reentry vehicle. It's not suddenly going to dissapear just because it's back in the atmosphere. The X-Band radar has the capability to track, target, and guide interceptors onto an incoming warhead all the way down to impact.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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And then how does it overcome MIRV decoys?
And my point is, if there is any terminal guidance system, then the vehicle is susceptible to ECM, right?
So putting electronics onboard is risky.Irrespective of whether it is passive or active.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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There is a difference between a MIRV and MIRV decoy radar return.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:02 AM
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wow, then you have a fool proof ABM there don't you?



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:07 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
And then how does it overcome MIRV decoys?


Well, the missiles in question, don't really have the capacity to carry many decoys if any at all. A sophisticated computer would be able to distinguish between decoys using factors such as speed and trajectory. To mimick a warhead the decoy would hvae to hvae the same properties as a warhead, so you might as well use a real warhead.



And my point is, if there is any terminal guidance system, then the vehicle is susceptible to ECM, right?


Depending on the terminal guidance, active of course is relatively straight forward to counter, apssive is somewhat more dificult.



So putting electronics onboard is risky.Irrespective of whether it is passive or active.


I believe the new Minuteman III warheads have a anti-jam gps reciever and the Trident II warheads as well. I don't think the Chinese have the technical proficiency to build a GPS reciver to the tight tolerances needed for an exo atmospheric weapon. Also, as said previously the US can tweak the timing of the GPS signals which would make it useless to the Chinese.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:08 AM
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Of course not.
Just because you can TRACK IT doesn't mean you can HIT IT. The ABM system they were using from Kawaj tracked every single MIRV, and was able to differentiate between a decoy and the actual vehicle, and manged to hit it ONCE. Over several years of testing. Having the radar is only one portion of the equation. We still need the kill vehicle.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:13 AM
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don't carriers have a high energy laser on them yet?? maybe two laser turrets powered by mini nuke reactors????

if they do the missiles would be shot down even if they were at Mach 10 laser = speed of light and would hit the target.

Also wouldn't X-BAND Radar and lasers = shoot anything out sky no problems??

I'm sure they would link lasers to x band radars?

[edit on 1-2-2006 by blobby]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 08:34 AM
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there is a reason the us has planes that can attack anywhere in the world in a very short time hypersonic bombers and laser equiped ones.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 08:58 AM
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We do?


We have them in TESTING, but not operational yet.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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Who can tell me whether US has already study using ballistic missile to attack moving target? and when has started? with prove please. I think that if US has researched this kind of project in early, who also knew the countermeasure.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:02 AM
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heck, it's hard enough telling where an aircraft carrier is going to be in 2 minutes from a destroyer following it, let alone where it will be in 5 or 10 minutes from any respectable distance.

ICBM-Inter Continental Ballistic missile
IRBM-Intermediate Range...
MRBM-Medium Range...
TBM- Theater Ballistic Missile
SRBM- Short Range Ballistic Missile



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:35 AM
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Hi everyone:
Excuse my foolish, whivh expert would tell me whether "a terminally guided reentry vehicle with a warhead" means there was something as Radar or sth, alse fitted in warhead with thrust-vectoring so the warhead can do high-g maneuverability at last time when it was very closer to target even?

[edit on 3-2-2006 by emile]



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 03:44 AM
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Hope this helps.


Terminal guidance -- Many missiles are programmed to hit a precise target before they are launched. Missiles with terminal guidance are not pre-programmed and are precision-guided by remote control only as they approach a target area.

www.pbs.org...

Basically it's a missile that's fired at an area, and guided to its target by various means. There are many ways to do this. GPS, INS, Radar, etc. It will guide itself onto a target using them.



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 06:21 AM
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HERE IS A SHESIS FOR DISCUSSION:
THE SHESIS I USED SOME TOOL OF TRANSLATION TO TRANSLATE WITH SOME CORRECT LEAD TO NO CHINESE. I ALSO GIVE YOU A LINK FOR ORIGINAL PAPER:
www.calt.com...

Missile and astronautics delivery technology
MISSILES AND SPACE VEHICLES

Re-entry vehicle attack idling speed activity goal guidance plan research

Chen eastern coastal region of China Yu Menglun Xin Wanqing Li Junhui
(Beijing astronavigation systems engineering design department, Beijing,100,076)

Once celebrated Hunan
(Beijing special mechanical and electrical research institute, Beijing, 100,076)
The abstract has studied the re-entry vehicle attack marine idling speed activity goal guidance plan. First introduced the goal initial reconnaissance positioning system; Then the detection unit as well as the aerological ascent system which may use to the re-entry vehicle attack goal has carried on the analysis; Finally has conducted the research to the guidance rule of re-entry vehicle that enter a trajectory of dives arc. Most greatly escapes in view of the goal the scope, proposed the high low altitude combined guidance plan, the simulation result indicated the plan is feasible.
Key word re-entry vehicle, combined guidance, evasion.
1 introduction□□
The re-entry vehicle attack idling speed activity goal is a brand-new research direction, because the re-entry vehicle has the characteristic which other attack methods does not have, mainly manifests in following several aspects:
A) the flight vehicle firing distance is far, may carry on the attack in the greater depth scope to the goal;
B) The reentry speed of flight vehicle is very fast, may use reentry maneuverability and reentry electric-disturbs, so the ability of breaking defence is very strong.
C) the re-entry vehicle attack might is big, and portable many kinds of forms attack installment;
D) the re-entry vehicle in has the active detection and end in the homing ability situation, similarly may achieve the quite high precision.
Therefore, the re-entry vehicle attack idling speed goal is one extremely effective attack method, but, its guidance plan and the attack fixed target guidance plan has differently. This article by the marine ships took the simulated strike object, from the reconnaissance positioning system, the detection unit and the guiding system and the guidance rule and so on several aspects elaborates the re-entry vehicle attack marine idling speed goal guidance plan.
2 target reconnaissance positioning system
When research re-entry vehicle attack marine idling speed goal guidance plan, first must consider how to goal implementation precise reconnaissance and localization, this is attacks the active goal the prerequisite.
At present, carries on the reconnaissance localization to the seaborne target the main method to include: Sea surveillance satellite, electronic reconnaissance satellite, imagery reconnaissance satellite, over-the-horizon radar as well as nobody reconnaissance aircraft and so on. Because uses the sole reconnaissance means not to be able to satisfy the combat to request, therefore must above the comprehensive utilization each reconnaissance means, achieve real-time, accurately carries on the monitor and the localization to the goal.
Surveys the method based on above reconnaissance positioning system like chart1 to show.

PICTURE 1

Through the sea surveillance satellite system and by the electronic reconnaissance, the imagery reconnaissance satellite constitution other reconnaissance satellite systems, may complete to the goal reconnaissance survey, the recognition and the localization. Although satellite reconnaissance system pointing accuracy higher, but satellite system timeliness is also worse, is unable to meet the wartime needs, therefore may use in usually to monitor. When enters the operational condition, may the target position information which monitors the satellite system through the communications satellite bequeath the over-the-horizon radar system, carries on the all-weather track monitor by it to the goal, real-time recording goal movement information. Because the over-the-horizon radar pointing accuracy is worse, therefore in prepared for action in front of the flight vehicle still to need and so on other methods produces the goal by the satellite system or nobody reconnaissance aircraft the exact location, unceasingly revised the over-the-horizon radar to bequeath the combat operation center the target information. This time has carried on initial Zhu Yuan in the launch unit flight vehicle binding, after the final target location up-dating information arrives the control center, bequeaths the launch unit immediately, adjusts the various Yuan with the recent information, and launch flight vehicle.

3 homing detection units and aerological ascent system
3.1 end homing detection units
With attacks the ground fixed target to be different, with the re-entry vehicle attack goal and must guarantee the attack precision, on the flight vehicle must have own acquisition system, namely end the homing detection unit, and carries on re-entry the homing guidance to the flight vehicle.
End the homing detection unit mainly uses in air-to-air missile and the ground-to-air missile, but has not applied in the re-entry vehicle, but its function is same, namely after the flight vehicle atmospheric reentry, carries on to the goal researches and the localization, and defers to the guidance rule which prearranges to the trajectory to carry on the revision, until hit goal.
Below unifies some host passive compound radar seeker to produce one kind of re-entry guidance plan.
After the flight vehicle atmospheric reentry arrives some altitude, active radar opening machine, carries on the search, the interception, the recognition and the track to the goal, produces guidance intelligence and so on line of sight angle, line of sight angular speed, distance, then active radar closing machine, the flight vehicle by air flap provides the controlling force, makes the evasion according to the guidance rule; When the flight vehicle continues flies to some one highly, the detection unit by the passive form to the goal carries on the search, and continuously produces the guidance intelligence, until hits the goal.
The ending guided system of re-entry vehicle must be more complex than the conventional detection unit,
Needs to solve many essential technical questions,
Mainly includes following several aspects:
A) the re-entry vehicle high speed has, the high temperature greatly dynamic re-entry environment, the detection unit must be able under this environment the normal work;
B) the detection unit range coverage must satisfy the re-entry vehicle guidance plan request;
C) the detection unit must have the target identification ability, therefore needs to develop the corresponding target identification technology;
D) must solve the detection unit to pass through the plasma black bonds when the signal loss question;
E) The detection unit must have the stronger anti-disturb ability.
Whether does the detection unit performance index satisfy the guidance request is the re-entry vehicle attack goal key and the prerequisite.
3.2 aerological ascents system
As a result of each kind of factor influence, the re-entry vehicle re-entry the maneuver capability is limited. When the goal escapes the region surpasses the flight vehicle reentry the mobile scope, only depends on the low altitude reentry maneuverability to be unable to guarantee the hit goal, in this kind of situation, may use the upper air trajectory to amend a plan, namely increases the high aerial guidance section, revises the partial ballistic deflection with the high, after causes the trajectory which re-entry needs to repair measures in the flight vehicle maneuver capability scope.
Must realize the re-entry vehicle upper air mobile front, must have in to be mobile obtains the new target position information. One kind of plan is obtains the revision directive in the flight vehicle flight center-section through the ground station; Another kind of plan is flight vehicle oneself carries the upper air radar-probing system, to this obtains the new target position information.
The preceding kind of plan is the command guidance, the principle simple, but the technical realization difficulty is bigger; The latter kind of plan although quite is complex in the technology, after but actually may achieve the launch no matter. When the flight vehicle flight to arc-dive some altitude, the posture controls the engine to carry on to the flight vehicle adjusts the posture, causes the upper air radar antenna to aim at the goal as far as possible, then radar opening machine, this time the posture controls the system maintenance flight vehicle posture the stability, after the radar antenna scanning, the recognition and the data accumulated, produces then target position information, hereafter radar closing machine, the flight vehicle according to the guidance procedure which prearranged adjusts the posture, then the high ignition, carried on the revision to the upper air trajectory. Certainly, realizes this kind of guidance plan to have very many difficulties, besides guidance plan itself complexity, also to set the higher specification as the hardware foundation upper air radar-probing system.

4 high low altitudes combined guidance plan
4.1 low-altitude maneuver abilities□□
After the re-entry vehicle low-altitude maneuver ability refers to the maximum maneuvering distance which is the flight vehicle atmospheric reentry can achieve, it many kinds of factors influence. For example, the supposition to the re-entry vehicle below proposed restrains the condition:
A) falls to the ground the rate limitation in 2 Ma - 3 Ma;
B) falls to the ground the time path angle to approach vertically;
C) the most high attack angle and the biggest overload has the limit.
Then the re-entry vehicle low-altitude maneuver ability is decided to above restrains the condition, when design re-entry guidance law must consider these restraint conditions, usually use have the terminal restraint condition the most superior guidance law[ 1,2 ], and carries on the limit to the angle of attack and the overload, but also must carry on decelerates the control, it dives in plane model re-entry trajectory like chart2 to show

PICTURE 2

This ballistic curve is uses some re-entry vehicle the trajectory and the air operated parameter carries on the simulation to obtain. Produces is dives in the plane trajectory, the height of re-entry calculates from 70 km, the guidance law uses is the literature[ 1 ]the center most superior re-entry guidance law. Among them, A is an aiming point, also is the ballistic trajectory point of descent; C launches for the flight vehicle when the goal initial point; B and D respectively be dives in the plane the goal most greatly escapes to after and to front the spot. Because decelerates the control and the overload limit, ballistic trajectory point of descent choice in goal initial spot, because if chooses in C, then in attacks B time not enough horizontal flight to decelerate the section, is unable to satisfy the falling speed the request. Therefore the ballistic trajectory point of descent must choose in A, AD is the flight vehicle low altitude maximum maneuvering distance, but BD is the attack scope.
The AB section showed in chart 2 is for guarantee attacks B and D time the distance which falls to the ground the speed to be able to answer the purpose reserves, in the simulation takes AB=25km, its value decides along with the concrete question. In the chart BC section and the CD section in dive in the plane for the goal most greatly to escape the radius, if the goal escapes the radius to be very big, then possibly is unable to guarantee attacks B and D trajectory can satisfy the falling speed request, namely the re-entry vehicle attack radius is limited. The simulation indicated that, this re-entry vehicle biggest attack radius is 20 km, namely BC=CD=20km, corresponds flight vehicle low altitude most greatly maneuvering distance AD=AB+2BC=65km.
4.2 high low altitudes combined guidance plan
In order to expand the attack scope, may increase the upper air to be mobile. Under produces one kind to be simple provides the controlling force with the solid propellant engine the upper air guidance plan.
Front uses aerological ascent system which states, produces the target position information after it, the flight vehicle starts to adjust the posture, adjusts the ordinate axis with the velocity vector vertical direction, then the high ignition, the realization dives in the plane the upper air trajectory is mobile to front and to after, to the front mobile time ordinate axis and the velocity vector included angle is 90°, to after when is-90°. This plan control mode quite is simple front, the flight vehicle in dives in the plane to be possible to carry on to and latter approaches mobile, fully has used the upper air energy, but must solve the question is:
How does a) use the flight vehicle to control the upper air maneuvering distance in upper air around after the maneuver capability (to refer to upper air mobile inertia re-entry ballistic impact to be apart from not mobile ballistic trajectory point of descent distance), after guarantees re-entry the goal in the flight vehicle low-altitude maneuver scope;
B) The solid propellant engine usually uses exhausts the closing machine way, how in exhausts Guan Ji under the condition to control the upper air maneuvering distance.
Under produces the concrete guidance plan and the conclusion, the inferential reasoning process omits. This plan uses the switch type control, satisfies the low altitude re-entry maneuver capability to take the target, infers upper air maneuver capability which needs, as well as instruction cut position, thus has solved the above two problems well, its principle like chart 3 shows

PICTURE 3

Chart3 center C still for the goal initial point spot, R was the goal most greatly escapes the radius, namely when flight vehicle hit goal before the target location and the launch binds goal initial point deviation, after also is the flight vehicle uses the attack region radius which high low-altitude maneuver needs to achieve. AB still for reserved distance. In this plan aiming point (namely non- mobile ballistic trajectory point of descent) no longer chooses in A, but is in E, AE length for the flight vehicle to the after upper air maneuvering distance, namely the flight vehicle carries on the upper air mobile ballistic trajectory point of descent to after in A, EF is the flight vehicle to the front upper air maneuvering distance, AF namely for the flight vehicle around sum of to the upper air maneuvering distance (maneuvering distance by point of descent computation).
This plan characteristic is has an instruction cut to selectG, namely after the goal is located G when, the flight vehicle makes the upper air to after to be mobile, its ballistic trajectory can fall on A; But when the goal is located G in front of when, the flight vehicle makes the upper air to front to be mobile, this time the ballistic trajectory point of descent can in point F
After the inferential reasoning may obtain, when satisfies
BG=AF=R (1)
When, low altitude needs the maximum maneuvering distance is smallest, is
Lmax=AB+R (2)
Below from this draws the conclusion:
A) the switch controls the instruction cut selects G is the goal initial point selects C;
After b) must cause the maneuvering distance which re-entry the flight vehicle needs to be smallest, only must choose the high around sum of to the maneuvering distance to be equal to the goal most greatly escapes radius R then.
Take the above flight vehicle as the example, like chart2 shows, the flight vehicle low altitude maximum maneuvering distance is
Lmax=AB+2r (3)
In the formular-chart2 center low-altitude maneuver biggest attack radius or CD.
Therefore by the type (2), (3) may know, after increased the upper air to be mobile and to use the switch type guidance plan, might expand the flight vehicle attack region radius a time, namely
R=2r (4)□§
Under carries on the high low altitude combined guidance simulation to the re-entry vehicle, and most greatly escapes the goal the radius to expand a time, namely R=40 km, after uses the high low altitude combined guidance to dive in plane trajectory like chart 4 to show. Because C cuts the spot, in the simulation when attacks point C in high altitude to use maneuverability
This upper air guidance plan may attack the region radius to expand a time, and enables the high low altitude energy to achieve the rational distribution, it uses has an instruction cut switch control, therefore the high must work; Certainly, but also may use has two instructions cuts switch control, namely when the goal is located two cuts between high not to work, such flight vehicle attack region radius also may increase, after its cut position, was high the energy or the maneuver capability in which high altitude air needed, as well as the expanded attack region radius still may use the above method to infer

CHART 4

Chart4 dives the plane high low altitude combined guidance trajectory

5 concluding remark
The re-entry vehicle attack idling speed activity goal most important condition is on the goal initial reconnaissance positioning system and the flight vehicle acquisition system, they are guide the plan the important constituent, is designs the guidance plan the hardware foundation. Attacks the region in view of the re-entry vehicle the limit as well as the goal possibly appears in a big way escapes the radius, proposed high low altitude combined guidance plan, this plan is really convenient and feasible, effectively increased the attack scope, but still had to conduct the thorough research to the below essential technical question:
A) guided the upper air energy which needed to be bigger, increased the flight vehicle quality, whether could satisfy the overall request;
Whether b) does the upper air posture control the system to answer the purpose;
Whether c) does the upper air guidance precision satisfy re-entry the terminal guidance request;
D) the high works when easily was discovered that, needs the effective defense penetration measure.

Reference

1 Zhao Hanyuan Flight vehicle re-entry dynamics and guidance Changsha: National University of Defense Technology publishing house, 1997.
2 Kim M, Grider K V. Terminal guidance for impact attitude angle constrained flight trajectories. IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic System ,1973, AES-9 (6): 852 ~ 859
Chen HaidongYu MenglunXin WanqingLi Junhui
(Beijing Institute of Astronautical Systems Engineering, Beijing, 100076)
Zeng Qingxiang
(Beijing Institute of Special Mechanical and Electronic Devices, Beijing,100076)

Abstract In this paper, the guidance scheme of reentry vehicles attacking slowly moving targets on the sea is studied. First, initial reconnaissance and location systems for targets are introduced; then, the target seeker and high altitude detector which can be used on reentry vehicles to attack the moving target are analyzed; finally, a guidance law in downward phase of reentry vehicles is studied. By considering the largest escape range of the target, a compound guidance scheme in highlow altitude is presented. The trajectory simulation sh
ows the feasibility of this scheme.
Key Words Reentry vehicle, Compound guidance, Flight maneuver
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If you are intersting in it, I hope you will save in your PC, I am afraid this link will be no long existance.


[edit on 3-2-2006 by emile]



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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why do people assume that the missile is IR or IC range ? i read the origanal report on Janes defence and there was no mention of the range of this ballistic anti ship missiles. for example a standard anti-ship cruise missiles have ranges from 40km-280km why would these ballistic anti-ship cruise missiles have longer ranges? they could just be designed for a layered anti-ship defence to be lanched from subs to a aircraft carrier and only have a range of 80km-280km to match the anti-ship cruise missiles to create a layered attack against a carrier.

saying a ballistic missile would miss its target becuase the ship moves is also stupid becuase the warhead is coming down in a top attack fashion meaning it has a birds-eye view and from the janes report it will have a visual guidence system similar to a spy sattelite scanning the ground it will also scan the ground probably image mapping or thermal/visual guidence etc..

also china also already has russian iskander-e missile technology :
sinodefence.com...

iskander missile has good acuracy of 20-30m CEP at 280km and can hit moving targets and becuase this missile is only 150km range it will have greater accuracy becuase the shorter the distance the more acurate the missile will be and the surface of most aircraft carriers is bigger then 30meters and if this missile is converted into submarine launched it will be very deadly and at 150km range it is also a good match for sub launched KLUB/club missiles that china purchased from russia and will make good layered attack.

there are alot of assumptions in this thread of what a ballistic missile can do and cant do these are wrong becuase just a few weeks ago russia showed a missile that can manuver on take of mid air and decent and can take manuver flight at high speed and still have good accuracy. these assumptions are true for a standard attack missile for ground based land targets that dont move. but alot of things can be done to the missiles to make it more accurate.

china is not stupid they will not waste money on something they know will not work. making a short range anti-ship ballistic missile is achivable by a country like china all they have to do is make there b611 into sub laucnhed version and create a datalink with a visual tip(thermal camera?) on the end on the missile warhead and then they will have a workable missile in the next 2 years.



posted on Feb, 4 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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The problem is that the new Chinese anti ship MRBMs are not inertial or GPS guided, they have a huge warhead that has a active radar seeker which prompts a CEP well enough to home in on ships with a size of anything bigger than a frigate. And they are not free falling objects, these anti ship warheads have a reentry boost rocket accelerating it to well beyond mach 10 during the terminal phase where the active seeker goes off.

China is known to have built Molniya radar, IR and SAR sattelites, we also have radar and indigenous programs.



posted on Feb, 5 2006 @ 12:16 AM
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I think you must understand Chinese, and also good at English, if you wish plaese do some correct on that I post which translate from Chinese shesis





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