Does Ballistic Missile Can Attack Aircraft Carrier Successfully?

Originally posted by rogue1
Oh right so you own houses now, you just seem to get more and more grandiouse.

How is it getting more grandiouse?. I said the thigns i said before.? Seriously, more lack of sleep aye?. You were the one which had just accussed me of dropping that line.

"""Unlike you i actually own houses my family are actually very wealthy"""

Which line of this quote didn't i say before?. Because you seem to have trouble interupting simple sentences

You see once again you completely misrtepresent on purpose what I said, the factory has 13 000 people th company runs many facotires that employ about 80 000.

You said the company was 13,000 people, then the next day you said the company was 80,000 people. You only said factory after i brought this up. Factory and company are very different things if your trying to claim this as a slip of the tongue, un-like my missing letter you have a whole different word there

Oh so they speak MAndarin now

I never said that, I said they DONT speak mandarin. You must have problem reading or something because i said it quite clearly. You get some sleep and when you have some more sleep then reply properly

AHem, when I go to a country I like to immerse myself in the local culture.

LOL LOL. If you were with a real chinese/taiwanese business man they would take you to the richest restraunt they could afford to go to, that one looks like a buffet bar instead of a actual restraunt. Man real five star luxury there. You must be very very rich to afford that meal on a ecnomic tourist package or trying to make it big in china.

You brag about your wealth while the only restruant you came afford to go to is some sweatshop in hong kong and the clothers you wear look like the ones you would find in kmart or one of those family stores.

In your u2u you said your family shops at the Salvation Army,

You finding it hard to read again?

Here my quote,
"""You telling me that sweatshop or eating in is expensive?

And you own a few salvo stores"""

Now where did i say it This time you dont even try to make your usual lie

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Umm… Chinawhite do you know what jamming is?

How to they jam encryted signals?. I pretty sure about this but the chinese military use 2.4~5.8ghz for a civillian network and possibly a different signal for a military network. If the chinese use the same signal as americans military one they will be jamming the same signal. Also they would only be able to jam the uits if they were near the satillite which i doubt the would be once they make a cycle pass it

Yes but the target was not moving as such it does not prove that hitting a carrier (a moving target) with that same missile is possible.

It proves that the missile can get with in 50m of the where the carrier was last. With terminal guidence that could mean one second to one mintue depending on the strength of the signal. Depending on the wave length it could travel very fast 1000km/s

[edit on 7-7-2006 by chinawhite]

What are you guys talking about?!? This thread is about "Does Ballistic Missile Can Attack Aircraft Carrier Successfully?". Stay on topic!

I'll post this again, just in case

*snip*
Mod edit: Oh no, you're not! Don't do this! Here is the link to the post you double posted: www.abovetopsecret.com...

And I remind you all to stay on topic!

[edit on 2006/7/8 by Hellmutt]

posted by Chinawhite
My family shops at K-mart, you'll never be able to prove it

^^^ Not that there is anything wrong with K-Mart, but I rest my case

A moron or what ?! Make up your own mind.



[edit on 8-7-2006 by rogue1]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Can you please not break every sentence up and answer from sentence to sentence?

Seriously, try and group similar topics together and answer them in one line instead of trying to write sentence for sentence. You style of posting is the equalvant to slugging it out, theres no information passed just a bunch of words

Well I figured each one of the above warranted its own answer.
I'd rather be precise than generalise my post.

How is being up for 17 hours a day hard to do. You claimed it would be extremly tiring to do but i know a whole bunch of people that have been doing it since they were in high school.

I dont see how waiting for orders would be any different to what i do. The standard sleeping hours is 8. I dont see your point about being tried since they wouldn't be hualing heavy weight around all day

Also i wait and prepare constantly for bell times. I dont think people would just sit there and do nothing just to pass the time

Yes and what do you study at school?
Being awake for 12 hours constantly working is hard, no matter what you may think.

There are a few units kept on high alert, the units that are near the taiwan strait are the ones that are on alert whilst the other units are not keep on 24 hour alert and they would be moving around and changing roles since they are not fixed sites but mobile TEL lanuchers which makes finding the missiles a lot harder and allows the crews some rest

Lol you think moving them around is "restful"?
Lol
Ok mate.
Just to ask, are these units going to be ready to launch in 5 minutes or even 20?

Which cruise liner goes at 30 knots?

Mine which is 20 years old (older than me for gods sake!) does 22 knots and we're the smallest in the fleet.

It wouldn't be like that since the rough co-ordinates will already be known from the fact that the US carrier would be leaving from a nearby asian country like japan which means their rough location is know. Also you will not just fire when you see that beep on the radar. Use ELINT or radar the signals they are emitting.

Lol you mean like in that "small" ocean you call the china sea and the surrounding waters...
Lol you know that nearly every ship has radar...right?

The carrier will also been known after a few of their planes start making bombing rounds at the chinese fleet which is the intended target. I would find it hard to imagine a plane mistaking a carrier for a destroyer or a anti-ship missile for a destroyer

So when the chinese fleet gets sunk you will bomb the seas around tai wan or at the nearest radar blip that emits EM.
Okkk
Well can you tell the diffrence at 500 miles the size of a carrier and a large crude oil container?

No, Im saying that the US would have to bring down the satillite before the PLA gets a foothold on the island since the war will already be lost if they have. And if the war is lost the US wouldn't make all the effort to get into a nuclear war with china over taiwan

Pretty easy considering that the space shuttle has satalite retrieval ability.

Also you making all these concessions for a US carrier. It sounds more like a white elephant if its going to prohibit your actions if it needs more support than it provides to the fleet.

Lol do you know how much fuel it needs to fly planes? Do you know how much FOOD it needs? The logistics are insane, hell look at the RFA ship sizes they are massive compared to destroyers and frigates for one reason: They are needed like hell to supply the entire fleet.

Having to take out the satillites then wait until the submarines destory try and destroy chinas fleet than the carrier will arrive after the shooting war is over.

Lol you dont need to wait on subs to destroy a fleet, before any war started the US would move ships into the area.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Because one test prototype does not prove its effectivness.

So neither does having a missile that "might" hit a carrier.

I thought you would have know by now. You need to verify its effectiness. Also the test was againest a satillite whos path was already know and timed to hit the area where the satillite will be. Now you will probaly say the US has a database of PLA satillites in orbit aye?

Well yeah since it can track them, or do your satalites have stealth technology and dodge radar?

Also, i do not need to do anything. The burden of proof lays on you since you are making the claim. That means your making the claim that it is in service. Because their are no reports stating their in service that means you will have to bring the source

No they are not in service (and if I could acess the USAF database before MTN crashes bloody satcoms I would verify it) but that doesnt stop them being brough INTO service along with the other ASAT weapons in develop ment along with the the NASA shuttles satalite retrival capability.

They modifed a maximum of 8 planes before 1988. I wonder if the people who modifed them are still alive or even the technology to put them into the planes are still aviable considering that the year was before pentium and other compaines making personal computers became widespread

Technology gets better every day and frankly considering what they have done with most of the other projects they have running a satalite killer would probably be buildable.

Also they modifled prototype of the planes and weren't put into active service. Its just like saying i built one type of car and i am meant to build the same type two decades later without the people i first built them with

If you have the plans you can rebuild them, we have plans for every piece of equipment on the ship and can near enough remake everything being used because we have them.

Not limited but a massive amount of commerical ships that could be used oncce the intial beachhead is won which would mean the taiwanese would be concentrating on the beach head instead of the trasport ships which would follow after.

Beachheads are very vunerable once your supplies are cut off, beleive me the taiwanese would not be soley concentrating on the beachhead plus I doubt you can land hundreds of troops onto a beach from a comercial ship since comercial ships are designed for harbours.

And the taiwanese dont have enough anti-ship missiles for the number of ships in the PLA navy.

Dont need anti ship missiles to sink a navy, the RM almost destroyed an argentinian warship with small arms and rockets.

Like you have said before, they might hit a wooden fishing ship instead of a PLA destroyer because they dont know

Bit diffrent than firing a ballastic missile at a blip on the radar, any fishing boats wishing to travel through an invasion force would be very lucky not to be shot by the PLAN themselves.

Also if you would like you can check up on the number of vessels registered in china. And i doubt that any commerical vessels would be making exports while a war was being fought so that would leave a number of them avaiblefor use in a cross strait invasion

LOL
Every commercial vessel is going to stop transporting goods so they can win the war! Ok let me ask, how do you plan to trade again if you cant ship things?

No, After twenty years without funding the planes would not be safe to fly if they were being kept in storage.

Well we dont know if they have been funded (ie kept in status with regular overhauls) or just been left to rot now do we?

And we are not speculating, you are speculating.

Your the one speculating that the PLAN has the ability to invade taiwan and that the PRC goverment will use EVERY ship in its power to invade taiwan......bit diffrent than me saying : the US can probably get the thing off the ground.

A test is a test. And training is training.

To do a test require a pilot to conduct training it , am I correct in this?

A pilot needs to be proficent in that style and their plane.

Last I checked the US main fighter airplane IS the F-15...

By your logic, i could say that a chinese MiG-21 pilot used a R-77 and killed a F-15 once. Does that mean they could do it all the time or does that mean it was a flute and they still need to do extensive test to make sure it actually works

We will never know if they can do it again until they do it, otherwise its just speculation.

Why wouldn't they? Chinese missile forces have been seen regulary practising with their missiles and there are missile drills in every wargame the PLA stages.

Yes and how many times have the PLA missiles forces practiced firing at a moving target in these wargames?
How many times have they practiced doing so on 24 standby with imediate response time.

The site doesn't tell me anything... It just mentions test that might be done in these years and plans for more but doesn't tell me any ability to do so

Mabye you didnt notice it says :Three prototyes have been built.
Why build a protoype if you are not ready to test?

Protecting the transport fleet with its SAM missiles and providing anti-ship warfare againest the taiwanese fleet of 4 kid class and ASW capabbilities.

And against the US navy which will be built up at the sign of trouble...right?

The russians were in economic troubles and asking for american aid. No way would they have money to make ASAT weapons. Also it was after the cold war when the americans did scale down their military budget

Yes and last time I checked the cold war ended in 1991, I doubt that russias stock of tested ASAT weapons went with out SOME funding.

Also if you want to believe that america has a whole array of ASAT weapons and i'll assume that same for the chinese forces because the US has been accusing them of it for a long time already.

China IS building ASAT weapons, I wont deny that at all.

So if the US can take out chinas satillites than i will assume china can take out americans satillites. What do you think about that

Yes I suppose they can but then again its just tit for tat isnt it?

Either does commerical shipping.

Your telling me that the US or the PLAN navy has ships doing mach 1?

Can you link me I would very much like to see it..

To launch a plane it would need to go at 30 knots and i doubt any ferry would be travelling that fast
[edit on 7-7-2006 by chinawhite]

Several ferrys can travel at 40 knots acorrding to my staff engineer who served on a few, not the best thing to ride in like. Nick named: The vomit comit.
The QE2 does nearly 30 knots.

Originally posted by rogue1

posted by Chinawhite
My family shops at K-mart, you'll never be able to prove it

^^^ Not that there is anything wrong with K-Mart, but I rest my case

A moron or what ?! Make up your own mind.

LOL

Making up fake quotes LOL

Originally posted by devilwasp
Well I figured each one of the above warranted its own answer.
I'd rather be precise than generalise my post.

There is no generalising. DONT POST word for word or sentence for sentence

I can't remember how much times i was warned for that before

Yes and what do you study at school?

Physics, maths, english

Its more training being a wake using your brain than it is to use light manual labour. And no being awake for 12 hours is not tiring. Unless people sleep for 12 hours that means that most people spend more than 12 hours moving around or awake. An adult is recommended 8 hours sleep a day so that leaves 16 hours awake. Not hard for anything

Lol you think moving them around is "restful"?

AKA rotation. Sitting down for 12 hours in a TEL vehicle then having 12 hours to sleep or prepare to sleep gives you enough rest to repeatly do it day after day. They will not be resting in the TEL they will be waiting, the resting period is the other twelve hours.Their only mission to be prepared and their getting paid for that which means they only ahve to do one thing in their whole life up to that point. Their in the military for god sakes, no beauty naps, no "me" time

If you think that being awake for 12 hours is tiring try this

Wake up at 6:30am then spend your day awake and then sleep at 11:30. That means i am awake for 17 hours each and every day. Once you get into the habit of waking up early its very easy.

Just to ask, are these units going to be ready to launch in 5 minutes or even 20?

LISTEN CAREFULLY.

# Once the carrier is near their general location, they will begin to assemble and prepare for launch
# That means, when the carrier arrives in range they will lanuch, which means they have a preparation time of less than 5 minutes

TAKE NOTE

does 22 knots and we're the smallest in the fleet.

Heres some trivia

The World's Fastest Cruise Ship - OLYMPIC VOYAGER

Link

Tonnage: 25,000 tons
Length : 590 ft - 180m
Breadth : 84 ft - 26 m
Draft : 24 ft - 7 m
Maximum Speed : 27 Knots

Link

As you can tell, much slower than a carrier considering they need to go at least 30knots to launch a aircraft, so that rules out hitting a cruise liner

Also, the name of the boat tells us its purpose, Its a cruise liner which cruises the ocean instead of hitting maximum speed anyway

Lol you mean like in that "small" ocean

China will only attack when the american attacks, Its quite simple getting co-ordinates of the ships when they start lanuching planes at you

No, when it leaves the port it can be tracked by satillites using the co-ordinates china already had

The ZY-1 satillite has a swath of 900km, which means it can cover the chinese coast before american planes are within decent range of the mainland, that allows china to know the distance of the carrier to the mainland. A satillite travels the earth every XX number of hours so that means that the carrier only has a few hours break before its locked on again. Even with this black spot you can calulate the area they will be in and send you AWACS aircraft to the surrounding area

Wide-Field Imager: Two bands (0.63-0.69 µm and 0.76-0.90 µm); 260-m resolution; 900-km swath.

The ZY-1 is the lease-spohiticated satillite in chinese service with another 3 ZY-2 satillites, One SAR radar, one HY-1 and a couple of FSW-3 satillite which could be launched into space. WIth those satillites in orbit, their will be no black spots the americans can spilt though with

So when the chinese fleet gets sunk

Sunk by who?. While your busy preparing the way for a carrier the chinese forces will already have been on taiwan for a couple of days already. It doesn't matter if the PLAN navy gets sunk, all that matters is it did its job and protected the landing fleet from american or taiwanese fighters. Thats if they finish clearing the path for a carrier.

And i doubt the americans will continue a war with china after their main objective was already taken. If they do they know it will turn nuclear because the americans will need to attack the chinese directly

carrier and a large crude oil container?

A crude oil tanker wouldn't be traveling at 30 knots. they are optimized for economic use not to get to the port the fastest and wouldn't be traveling over 20 knots.

Also the old tanker wouldn't be shooting planes at you or have a bunch of other ships around them. Thats the difference

you dont need to wait on subs to destroy a fleet, before any war started the US would move ships into the area.

Unless the Americans can tell the future that is impossible.

So neither does having a missile that "might" hit a carrier.

LISTEN CAREFULLY.

#The missile will not hit the carrier, it will get within 50m of the carriers last location, with terminal guidence, that means a delay of less than a second.

This is what i told Westpoint
""It proves that the missile can get with in 50m of the where the carrier was last. With terminal guidence that could mean one second to one mintue depending on the strength of the signal. Depending on the wave length it could travel very fast at least 1000km/s """


The difference between my missile and your missile is, your missile has only done its intended duty ONCE while mine has proven it can do it OVER AND OVER AND OVER

Use saturation tactics with 10 missiles and you blanket a 3~5km^2 area with sharpnel, little tungsten balls and other things that can rip the carrier and other ships radars on top

When they have no eyes or ears they will be picked off by other ships with missiles that are good in the anti-shipping role like the YJ-62 or the moskit. Also when it explodes it will also damange anything on deck which includes aircraft and personal on board

Well yeah since it can track them, or do your satalites have stealth technology and dodge radar?

You seem to think the americans have set up shop everywhere in the world?

Tracking is bad and good. It also has blind spots and palces where it can't track because of the curve of the earth

If a satillite is going from the north pole to the south pole, longitude 120-130 the american tracking system might have trouble picking it up. I say might even though i think they wouldn't. Theres no stealth, its jsut extremly difficult to track a pin pick in the shy with the other 20,000 other little bits of things out there. Thats why tracking a satillite is quite difficult

but that doesnt stop them being brough INTO service along with the other ASAT

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

AGE WILL

There ARE no planes to fire the ASAT weapons, There are probaly no ASAT weapons left, They have been in storage for a two decades which would have either wreaked the battery or either wreaked the motor for the missile. Leaving missiles out in storage will make them un-functionable like it was demonstated with the R-27 (which was the most reliable weapon in soviet service) in ethiopian war. Also the same with munitions if they leave if out to long


- The aircraft needs to be modifed for a ASAT missile. Rewiring and fitting different electic gear. So that means any global reach the F-15 has, or planes in other bases need to be re-wired extensivly to fire a ASAT missile

- The other planes which have already been re-wired were might have been mothballed or discarded considering the gap of almost twenty years since the program and funding were terminated.

- The planes have not been maintaied or if mothballed would need to be checked to see if their still airworthly (if their airworthly). Then shipped to a continent which the satillite passes over.

- The twenty year gap also leaves a twenty year gap between trained personal which will be able to travel 80,000 feet and do a satillite intercept

- Only one test of the ASAT has ever been conducted, which means it may or may not fail when it intercepts. And dont even tell me it will work one hundred percent with only one test firing

NASA shuttles satalite retrival capability.

Yeah, even though a mission will take ages to prepare and implement, the shuttle project is almost cancelled. How much deplays again happened to the recent lanuch?. 2 or 3?

satalite killer would probably be buildable.

If you could build a satillite killer without noticce in a week than the US would already have done that during the cold war

They took years to make that program and it only lasted into the prototype stage. It isn't WW2 where it was simple and had lots of time to come up with new ideas. YOu are given a timeline of a possible week to finsh build lanuch and destroy a satillite.

launchs are planned months ahead because of all the calulations needed to make sure that when lancuhed doesn't not hit space junk and will get into the right orbit. It you do a quick search you will find out how difficult it is to lanuch one. Your thinking to simplly. The americans dont have that capbility, no one ever had. In the cold war the soviets lanuched much mroe satillites on average than the americans did. They had that capability while the americnas choose a longer but seemly more cheaper approach of a re-usable space shuttle

Even the russians in they heyday couldn't have put a rocket in space even through they were making crude rockets and had massive factories making them as fast as they could.

If you have the plans you can rebuild them

What machine tools do you posses to re-make them?. They were not mass-produced nor were produced in large prototype numbers. I doubt the machine tools which were avaible are avaible today. The missiles most likey were made by one person and that one person made all the missiles differently because they did not standarized production

One example would be to re-make the same phone they were making in the 1950s, Its simple technology and you have the designs but you need to remold the phone and make the interior components which make it work. Of course its possible to make a replica but not with the time you ahve avavible

I doubt you can land hundreds of troops onto a beach from a comercial ship

Not a actual beach but a area you already have got eg a foothold on the island. etc . The commerical ships will supplment the military ships.

the RM almost destroyed an argentinian warship with small arms and rockets.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL . No offence should be taken of the laughing, but you ahve to admit its pretty funny.

Number of Naval SAMs

2x TYPE 052C - 48 HQ-9
2x TYPE 052B - 48 SA-N-12
2x 956 SOVREMENNY CLASS - 48 SA-N-7
2x 956EM SOVREMENNY CLASS - 48 SA-N-7 + 8 SA-N-11
1x TYPE 051B - 8 HQ-7 16 spare
2x Luhu Class - 8 HQ-7 16 spare
2x Luda Class - 8 HQ-7 16 spare
2x TYPE 054 - 8 HQ-7 16 spare
7x Type 053H3 - 8 HQ-7 16 spare

Unless the taiwanese airforce had enough anti-ship missiles the rockets or bombs aren't going to cut it. This is not including the land based systems

Every commercial vessel is going to stop transporting goods so they can win the war

And all of them would be sunk by who?

Why would they be trading in a situation like this?. Its just plain common sense to wait it out. And all commerical ships wouldn't be used only the ones which were capable of doing so would be used. They wouldn't be so stupid to fire on a civillan craft.

Well we dont know if they have been funded

Congress stopped their funding. Who else would have given millions of dollars a year to maintain planes which were no use?. Honesty where do you come up with ideas like that.

Planes will be sitting in a airbase getting regular overhuals. they would most likey go to the AMARC, like their other friends

PRC goverment will use EVERY ship in its power to invade taiwan. the US can probably get the thing off the ground.

I said the PRC could use every ship in china to do it. Not saying that they wouldn. You made a comment about the PLA not having enough ships to ship over its troops while i suggested you look into chinas commerical fleet. You saying that the US airforce is able to use its F-15s even though they had no funding now you say we dont know if they are getting funding even though it hasn't been passed by congress

Two different things here, I am not speculating the PRC will use commerical ships because i am certain they will use them as demonstrated by them putting tanks on them and using them as shore bombardment. Also i know the PLA has the capability to invade taiwan, which has been acknowledged by taiwan. Their policies and their pleding to the US for protection. Im difinatly not speculating

To do a test require a pilot to conduct training it , am I correct in this?

Yes you are correct but not to what i said.

I said the pilot that will fly the mission NOW will have to require training not the pilot how did the original testing, Most like he is over 50 now and would not be able to fly to 80,000 feet because he is to old to be flying that fast and that high. Unless there are pilots which fly to 80,000 feet and do ASAT runs then they have no experience in the airforce at all and would need to do other test to make new tactics

But all of this happens if other factors happen in the americnas favour

Last I checked the US main fighter airplane IS the F-15...

Yes and you said F-22 pilots flying that high not F-15 pilots

How many times have they practiced doing so on 24 standby with imediate response time.

Heres a picture from yesterday or today depending where you are

Mabye you didnt notice it says :Three prototyes have been built.

Am i missing something but it doesn't say anything of the such in the link you gave me????

I doubt that russias stock of tested ASAT weapons went with out SOME funding.

There were more important things than ASAT weapons that didn't get funding

their missile force navy, airforce and airforce would have been in the same category and most people here knnow what happened to them. Even the Anti-ballistic missile system around moscow didn't get any funding

Your telling me that the US or the PLAN navy has ships doing mach 1?

I didn't say mack one, i said carrier to cruise ship

Originally posted by chinawhite
There is no generalising. DONT POST word for word or sentence for sentence

I can't remember how much times i was warned for that before

Why shouldnt I ? Its answering questions, if we are going to start restricting how to answer questions where will it stop?

Physics, maths, english

And do you wake up and do PT in the morning before that?

Its more training being a wake using your brain than it is to use light manual labour. And no being awake for 12 hours is not tiring. Unless people sleep for 12 hours that means that most people spend more than 12 hours moving around or awake. An adult is recommended 8 hours sleep a day so that leaves 16 hours awake. Not hard for anything

Yes and for those 12 hours are they constantly sitting waiting on the order to fire/
Do you think the officers would let them wait for 12 hours by thier units sleeping and becoming lazy or would they be drilling them like mad?

AKA rotation. Sitting down for 12 hours in a TEL vehicle then having 12 hours to sleep or prepare to sleep gives you enough rest to repeatly do it day after day.

Lol you think they will just wait and sit?

If you think that being awake for 12 hours is tiring try this

Wake up at 6:30am then spend your day awake and then sleep at 11:30. That means i am awake for 17 hours each and every day. Once you get into the habit of waking up early its very easy.

And do you sti in a TEL for 12 hours waiting? Have you ever spent 12 hours on watch?

LISTEN CAREFULLY.

# Once the carrier is near their general location, they will begin to assemble and prepare for launch

How can it be near there general location if thier location is mainland china?
I understand what your meaning but I still doubt it.

# That means, when the carrier arrives in range they will lanuch, which means they have a preparation time of less than 5 minutes

Oh will they?Time the PLA missile force launching sequence have you?



As you can tell, much slower than a carrier considering they need to go at least 30knots to launch a aircraft, so that rules out hitting a cruise liner

Lol, so your radar can tell at several hundred miles away exsactly what speed its doing aka 27 nkots and not 30?

Also, the name of the boat tells us its purpose, Its a cruise liner which cruises the ocean instead of hitting maximum speed anyway

Lol you've never been on a cruise liner have you?
Cruise liners REGULARY run at top speed or "Full cruise" as we call it in PO, to get form place to place. Its not the ship that attracts people, its the ports.

China will only attack when the american attacks, Its quite simple getting co-ordinates of the ships when they start lanuching planes at you

How so , I'd like you to explain how knowing WHERE they attacked one time is close enough to give GPS co-ordinates.

No, when it leaves the port it can be tracked by satillites using the co-ordinates china already had

Satalites pass over the earth many times, hence why they can only take pictures at certain times. The US was prepared for russian satalites in the north atlantic by making rapid turns and course changes once the satalite had passed since the US knew when they would pass. Also satalites do give it "just a few hours to move" , they give it several hours hell maby nearly a whole day depending on the orbit.

Sunk by who?. While your busy preparing the way for a carrier the chinese forces will already have been on taiwan for a couple of days already.

The US navy is not carrier dependant, the US navy has several warships capable of operating without aircover and alone. One up to date destroyer against an un supported PLAN will have little trouble.

It doesn't matter if the PLAN navy gets sunk, all that matters is it did its job and protected the landing fleet from american or taiwanese fighters.

Uhhh ok tell that to the PLAN high command and its sailors and see the response you get..

And i doubt the americans will continue a war with china after their main objective was already taken. If they do they know it will turn nuclear because the americans will need to attack the chinese directly

Your really overconfident about the ability of the PLAN task force, the US has several ships able to attack the PLAN at long range and as far as I know PLAAF cant intercept ship to ship missiles.

A crude oil tanker wouldn't be traveling at 30 knots. they are optimized for economic use not to get to the port the fastest and wouldn't be traveling over 20 knots.

No they are not the fastest but then again we are talking about size here, the carrier itself doesnt need to do 30 knots all the time.

Also the old tanker wouldn't be shooting planes at you or have a bunch of other ships around them. Thats the difference

Ever been in a shipping lane?

Unless the Americans can tell the future that is impossible.

SO the PLAN is now ready at less than 24 hours notice to invade taiawn?
The PLA has the ability to be ready within 24 hours to invade taiwan?

#The missile will not hit the carrier, it will get within 50m of the carriers last location, with terminal guidence, that means a delay of less than a second.

You mean 50% of it will get near it, that is what CEP means, that 50% of the missile will hit its target.

The difference between my missile and your missile is, your missile has only done its intended duty ONCE while mine has proven it can do it OVER AND OVER AND OVER

Your missile has not proven it can get within 50 metres of a carrier , until the PLA fire it at one its not tested , it only theory.

Use saturation tactics with 10 missiles and you blanket a 3~5km^2 area with sharpnel, little tungsten balls and other things that can rip the carrier and other ships radars on top

Yes and what is the effective range of this shrapnel?

When they have no eyes or ears they will be picked off by other ships with missiles that are good in the anti-shipping role like the YJ-62 or the moskit. Also when it explodes it will also damange anything on deck which includes aircraft and personal on board

How are the PLAN going to mobilise a fleet like that without being sunk itself? You think that 10 missiles will destroy a US taskforce or atleast blind them?

You seem to think the americans have set up shop everywhere in the world?

No just in strategic places.

Tracking is bad and good. It also has blind spots and palces where it can't track because of the curve of the earth

If a satillite is going from the north pole to the south pole, longitude 120-130 the american tracking system might have trouble picking it up. I say might even though i think they wouldn't. Theres no stealth, its jsut extremly difficult to track a pin pick in the shy with the other 20,000 other little bits of things out there. Thats why tracking a satillite is quite difficult

You mean it would be hard for say an american satalite tracking staion say In oh I dont know....ummm austrialia? To watch a chinese satalite on 120 degrees longitude?

Oh and about the ASAT, true that it has been out of service for 20 years and true that there is no one probably left in service who has trained to do a steep climb to 80,000 (although I'm sure there are pilots who can) and yes the weapons MIGHT have been moth balled, not looked after, left to rot and all that....BUT....the question is this...: What stops them building another?

Yeah, even though a mission will take ages to prepare and implement, the shuttle project is almost cancelled. How much deplays again happened to the recent lanuch?. 2 or 3?

Yes it probably will take ages to prepare, the same ammount of time the PLA takes to move forces into position and removes its weapons from storage.

Originally posted by chinawhite
If you could build a satillite killer without noticce in a week than the US would already have done that during the cold war

No need 3 are already built and the laser defence system has been used to "illuminate" a satalite at less than 50% power, I wonder what effect a powerful laser would have on a fragile satalite.

What machine tools do you posses to re-make them?.

Onboard, lots, too many to name unless I got down and see the store keeper.

The missiles most likey were made by one person and that one person made all the missiles differently because they did not standarized production

Lol, yes one person made all of this missile , no probably one person helped designed all of the missile but not make it.

\
Of course its possible to make a replica but not with the time you ahve avavible

What time? You already know how long it will take to win the war? You can read the future?

Not a actual beach but a area you already have got eg a foothold on the island. etc . The commerical ships will supplment the military ships.

Lol ship to ship crossing!
Mate you need specialised crafts for that, not cargo ships and cruise liners. Ever been onboard a cruise liner? There are few exits and entry points and depending on the ship , not a lot of room to land a heli.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL . No offence should be taken of the laughing, but you ahve to admit its pretty funny.

What? Its true, they almost hit the armour with a small rocket, dont believe me then look it up.

Unless the taiwanese airforce had enough anti-ship missiles the rockets or bombs aren't going to cut it. This is not including the land based systems

Is this from the south china fleet or is this from the entire PLAN ?

And all of them would be sunk by who?

That little force you dont seem too bothered about called the US navy.

Why would they be trading in a situation like this?. Its just plain common sense to wait it out. And all commerical ships wouldn't be used only the ones which were capable of doing so would be used.

Well if you hadnt noticed that even though there IS a war on trade still happens. IE look at WW2 , convoys? Commerce does not stop for war.

They wouldn't be so stupid to fire on a civillan craft.

Anything with a PLAN flag on it is a legal target , otherwise you would be breaking the rules of war by using civilians as human shields.

Congress stopped their funding. Who else would have given millions of dollars a year to maintain planes which were no use?

Planes which where no use? I dont think so, there are many projects that where "Scrapped" yet the aircraft where still used ie YF-23.

I said the PRC could use every ship in china to do it. Not saying that they wouldn. You made a comment about the PLA not having enough ships to ship over its troops while i suggested you look into chinas commerical fleet.

A commercial fleet is not an invasion force, it is a sitting target, for every ship you need one escort ship because unless the PLA is breaking international law then commercial ships are not armed.

Two different things here, I am not speculating the PRC will use commerical ships because i am certain they will use them as demonstrated by them putting tanks on them and using them as shore bombardment.

Wait wait a second.....your going to use tanks on ships as commercial ships as shore bombardment? What in hell!

Also i know the PLA has the capability to invade taiwan, which has been acknowledged by taiwan. Their policies and their pleding to the US for protection. Im difinatly not speculating

They have the ability, but with US forces that might change.

Yes you are correct but not to what i said.

Yes it is, you said no one was trained for it, they done a climb test therefore they must have trained for it.

Unless there are pilots which fly to 80,000 feet and do ASAT runs then they have no experience in the airforce at all and would need to do other test to make new tactics

No they would probably need to get the old instructors back and teach the pilots how to do the old moves, unless your saying that a move cannot be taught?

Yes and you said F-22 pilots flying that high not F-15 pilots

F-22 pilots are trained on both.

Heres a picture from yesterday or today depending where you are

Am i missing something but it doesn't say anything of the such in the link you gave me????

Exscuse me while I find the link for it.

There were more important things than ASAT weapons that didn't get funding

Yes but the russian armed forces is a bit of a mess wouldnt you agree?

I didn't say mack one, i said carrier to cruise ship

Well frankly you did say mach 1, also 3 knots is not that biga diffrence.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Why shouldnt I ? Its answering questions, if we are going to start restricting how to answer questions where will it stop?

LOL...

Your not answering the questions you are asking questions

Im not going to spend my time answering every single one of you sentences questions. Enjoy your life, your post are always draining since i have to answer every question you come up with

Why don't we get back to the topic ppl and stop witt his rubbish already. aballsitic missile might or might not be able to hit a moving target.

1.)A ship will know that the misisle has been alunched.
2.)It can perform an intercept.
3.) it can slow down /speed up significanly or change it's course.


a ballsitic missile can

1.) be launched as close as possible
2.) Use MIRV's to overwhelm defenses and attack multiple targets
3.) can be retargeted

It's possible you can hit a few ships with a ballsitic misisle but not practical an anti ship missile is a better option.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Im not going to spend my time answering every single one of you sentences questions. Enjoy your life, your post are always draining since i have to answer every question you come up with

Hmm, but you expect other people to answer every little sentence of yours, most of which are off topic. @ sets of rules ...... LOL.

Originally posted by rogue1
Hmm, but you expect other people to answer every little sentence of yours, most of which are off topic.

Answer?. All he did was present another question when I answered his questions. And i dont expect people to answer me because i rarely ask for anything and provide my argument

Difference between answering my post and asking questions to hard to understand for you?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
And then how does it overcome MIRV decoys?
And my point is, if there is any terminal guidance system, then the vehicle is susceptible to ECM, right?
So putting electronics onboard is risky.Irrespective of whether it is passive or active.

At least with regards to the U.S. inventory, the two current MKV (Multiple Kill Vehicle) designs are capable of taking out incomming missiles along with any decoys they might be carrying (at least that's what the video sais). Decoys and countermeasures are statistically more effective when you only have one kill vehicle per missile payload. With multiple kill vehicles that all communicate with one another the situation is different. Any one of the vehicles in the cluster can take over what is basically automated command and control of the other units.



Alot of the new guidance details are classified (at least I would guess) but from what I've seen and read the newer kill vehicles currently being developed by the U.S. are all being designed around ways to defeat the target regardless of whatever countermeasures might be deployed to deter it from doing so.

They just did the hover test for the first MKV model back in December 2008. (But I think alot of you already know this just because I know the knowledge and background alot of you guys have from past threads).



There are videos of the testing all over youtube and they are pretty mind boggling (some of the video commentors on youtube actually think the sudden movements make it look like CG).

If you want to get technical though, putting electronics on any bomb, missile, or weapons platform is risky.. ECM are only going to be as effective as the window you have to react to an incomming threat too. My uncle flew the EA-6B Prowler for the U.S. Navy during desert storm and later worked for the government, as a civilian, as one of the engineers in charge of updating and improving the airframe. I don't know what new technologies are out there currently or are being developed, but I don't know of any ECM system that is fully automated. That means human hands in the mix and that requires a very specific time window to detect and react to the threat. (A time window that might not be big enough).

I don't know if you guys saw THIS Fox news story earlier today.. But this is basically what it said.

"Chinese 'Kill Weapon' Gives U.S. Navy Cause for Concern"

Details are emerging about a Chinese-developed “kill weapon” that potentially could target and destroy a U.S. aircraft carrier in a single strike.

The U.S. Naval Institute, a pro-military organization, notes that a post on a Chinese blog considered credible by military analysts provides a description of an anti-ship ballistic missile that could hit U.S. ships from about 1,240 miles.

A senior U.S. Navy official at the Pentagon confirmed to FOX News that such a weapon is a tangible threat from China, but it isn't a new threat. And the U.S. Navy has systems, such as the Aegis missile defense system, that can counter the threat posed by the Chinese missile.

The size of the missile, according to the U.S. Naval Institute, allows a warhead large enough to inflict significant damage on an American super carrier in a single strike, and it raises the chances of evading tracking systems and reaching its moving target unscathed in less than 12 minutes.

In recent months, the U.S. Navy's strategy has shifted toward improving the capabilities of its deep-sea fleet and developing anti-ballistic defenses, the U.S. Naval Institute reports.

The fox news story is based off of an anonymous blog post that was posted talking about this specific missile system. I later saw THIS
story at the U.S. Naval Institute's website.. Which gives a direct link to a translated version of the original blog post in question.
You can see that blog post HERE at a blog site called "Information Dissemination" . It's pretty interesting discussion going on in there too (definately applicable to this thread).

Since the guidance is currently the main topic of discussion I thought I would post this from the information dissemination website (which talks about the original mysterious blog post)

What are the sources that provide targeting data for this ASBM system?
The blog basically listed 5 sources and they are:


Reconnaissance Satellites - I think you can look at the Ziyuan and Yaogan series of satellites that have EO, CCD and SAR sensors as possibilities here. They could also be talking about the FY series, which is actually expected to be a constellation of Earth Observation satellites. I think it's important that in the 18th Committee on Earth Observation Satellites plenary and workshop in 2004, they announced they would launch over 100 Earth Observation satellites. I don't know enough about this to comment on which specific satellites I think will be used for scanning ships, but the blog did mention that China has used FY-2 series of satellites to track movement of targets. Another possibility is launching many short duration, micro-Earth Observation satellites in times of conflict. It mentioned that China can launch a 100 kg satellite on 12 hours notice. In peace mission 05. They launched an experimental satellite on August 2nd for detection/science experiment work. This operated for 27 days and returned to earth on August 29th after the conclusion of the exercise.
Elint satellites - It mentioned something like USN's White Cloud Spaceborne ELINT System. The problem I have with this is that I can't find any mention of China having similar system anywhere.

OTH Radar - Has a range of 800 to 3000 km. The accuracy in targetting is around 20 to 30 km. This can be improved to 2 to 3 km with improved algorithm. OTH radar can work with the recon satellites to provide more accurate targeting info.

UAV - As mentioned above, China does have a robust UAV program going right now including the aforementioned XiangLong program. As we've seen in the Zhuhai airshow, they have numerous HALE and MALE UAV projects going. The major problem currently with Chinese UAV programs is that they simply don't have many small turbojet/turbofan engine series. As a result of having to work with what they have, the major design institute in AVIC-1 can't come up with the most optimal UAVs. I think that this will change in the next 10 years, so this part of the targeting system is behind recon satellites and OTH radar.

Radio post - This is problem the most confusing one for me. The blog talked about working with elint satellites (which I don't think they have) to get the location of the carrier group through communications between ships and satellites/aerial assets.

Pretty advanced from a country like China (If this isn't all just disinformation aimed at fear mongering). Of coarse we wouldn't necessarily have any way of knowing all the REAL details for obvious reasons even if our government found out. And all this currently going on right after naval forces were deployed to the area of the North Korea missile launch debacle. Pretty good timing for a country like China to drop some anonymous blogs / disinformation as a way of telling us to "stay off the porch". What is interesting is that China seems to be on our side (at least sofar as they agree not to reject any official sanctions on North Korea if they go forward with their missile launch plans all over the MSM right now). Yet, what is clear is that they really don't like us being in their part of the woods AT ALL.

This new anti-ship "ballistic" missile, from what I have read, doesn't act like a traditional anti-ship missile that approaches the target either above water just above the waterline or beneath the water altogether (such as one of the Iranian anti-ship missile/torpedoes that is so fast it's scary). This is a solid-rocket fueled ballistic missile that has basically been overhauled from an older existing ballistic missile system. It still must reach altitude and attack its target from above. This lower's its overall effectiveness as an anti-ship weapon in alot of different ways even though it is extremely fast and purportedly well-guided. Our ships already have the systems on board to counter such a threat (in the form of Aegis).

The only threatening thing about this new missile, IMO, is the closing speed and its reaction when it approaches vicinity to the target. Supposedly this missile can travel Mach 10 (of coarse all ICBM warheads do upon reentry I think). But supposedly when this missile reaches the vicinity of its target it doesn't deploy countermeasures (at least they aren't mentioned in anything I came across). The mysterious blog post sais that it "Oscillates" but that could just be for slowing down the weapon just before impact and/or detonation above the target. It could also just be a mode of the guidance unit to have time to reassess target tracking and continue to make course corrections just before impact/detonation.

Isn't China also constructing their first aircraft carrier too?

-ChriS

[edit on 2-4-2009 by BlasteR]

[edit on 2-4-2009 by BlasteR]

Whoever that poster is, he/she thinks China's "new" and untested communication links and nodes will work well under wartime conditions when their C2 etc., is being challenged? They must be pretty sure of their anti-space and electronic attack capabilities, I'm not though.

reply to post by chinawhite


I think both of you need to get a grip.. We're trying to have a discussion here about the new Chinese ballistic missile and its potential to destroy/sink aircraft carriers. Enough with the personal attacks, off-topic rants, and meaningless talk about who is right and who is wrong over some theoretical B.S. having nothing to do with the topic. BLAH!!

I honestly think I'm the only member on ATS that actually U2U's people when I'm pissed off at them or their posts...

Why don't you just contact each other, debate, get it off your chest, make up (or not), and move on...

Nobody likes to admit when they're wrong.. But that doesn't mean this thread should end up like THIS ONE because of it.

-ChriS

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Whoever that poster is, he/she thinks China's "new" and untested communication links and nodes will work well under wartime conditions when their C2 etc., is being challenged? They must be pretty sure of their anti-space and electronic attack capabilities, I'm not though.

This is what's so curious about the blog post in general. The defense department, for as-yet to be released reasons, believes the anonymous blog post is credible. But we have so little knowledge about what covert R&D is REALLY going in on in China that there isn't any way to rule out the possibility of a modified ballistic missile capable of destroying an American supercarrier.

When you think about it though, its the perfect ploy.
This would be the perfect way for the Chinese Government to covertly:

1 - Get the attention of the international community
2 - Send a clear warning to naval forces worldwide (but mainly the U.S.)
3 - Throw disinformation into an already complex geopolitical catastrophe.
4 - Send a clear message of political intent that they will cooperate with the U.S. economically and geopolitically to a degree but not to get too excited about it. And that they are still a powerful communist regime and a key player in what unfolds in the global scheme of things.

All from one anonymous blog post..

Also, we only have so many geostationary spy satellites above that region. If we tap out our resources searching for this new ship-killer, that takes the eye off the prize in North Korea's missile launch site. I don't think we would risk sending spy planes over that region at this point. Especially after all the very specific threats telling us NOT to do so. But we already have U-2's based in South Korea (I was stationed at one of the bases there) and probably throughout the entire far-eastern region. If Russia could shoot down a U-2 spy plane in the sixties, China could do it today. Of coarse, the technology has evolved with the times but its a risk I don't think our leaders would be willing to take.

That makes the intel from the spy satellites much more meaningful and valuable..

If we scanned the entire Chinese mainland looking for proof of the existence of this new ballistic missile system, we are either going to find it or we aren't. But it isn't exactly that easy. If it does exist, its going to be extremely difficult to verify even with the best satellite imagery. That's because, remember, this is supposedly a modified version of an older ballistic missile system but still looks pretty much identical. If it doesn't exist, we could end up spending alot of time and resources on a wild goose chase (maybe that's what the Chinese leadership wants though).

There are alot of different ways you can look at this anonymously posted information (If it is even real). But the overall theme here is that we are smart enough to question it and the reason WHY it was posted. Did the poster have an intent to deceive or disinform? Anyone could technically author a post like that with what is freely available all over the internet and leave an IP address based out of China to make the defense department scratch their heads... All it would take is a creative mind and a little time to put together a believable/credible story. Would China, itself, post disinformation in this manner to make a geopolitical statement? It would make sense to be careful and covert about how you warn the elephant in the room (us). Otherwise someone just did it for personal fulfillment.

If someone in China posted it, why would they chance being tracked down by some of the most prolific hackers on the planet (already in China). A communist nation like china is more likely to monitor the internet traffic of the entire population. And if the poster is found, and the information is real, he is likely going to be found and killed (if he isn't already). They already have mobile lethal-injection vans killing people all over the country. Sick..

The more you think about it, the more bizarre this all seems. I can tell you, though, that our Navy is not going to take any chances or tempt fate. We are trying to keep North Korea the focus right now (and we should). They are, easily, the biggest threat to global stability in the region and our leadership knows this whole ordeal can go south at the drop of a hat. I've always believed World War 3 would be the quickest war in history.

We definately have things heating up around the world with what seems to be a resurgance of nuclear weaponry just in the past few years. I think the main reasons are geopolitical stability related to the war on Iraq, the war on terrorism, and a resurgance of big egos and short tempers the likes of Russian, Venezuelan, Chinese, North Korean, and Iranian leaders..

-ChriS