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Hamas will make a deal! Withdraw For End To Armed Resistance

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posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:27 PM
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no israel really doesn't have to...

they have took on all sides more than once and won...

your sense of fair play and some sort of survivor guilt may be clouding your judgement. but at the end of the day they still always won. And at the end of the day the winner sets the terms of the peace which they agreed to at the time. not anyone's fault but theirs if they all of a sudden have buyers remorse for a badly struck bargain.... END OF STORY

My comments on this are at an end, if you want a more rabid or less pragmatic response you can attack I have no doubt it will come along. But I have presented my point and don't intend to debate with someone who doesn't acknowledge the bulk of others' statements so good day to you sir.

I truly do hope you find your peace

[edit on 1-2-2006 by Sugarlump]




posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
How do you tell if you are offense, or defense?


Well, the easy way is to ask whether you're destroying folk, or folk or trying to destroy you. And if you think that the Arab states have done anything except attempt to destroy the Israeli state, you are delusional.


You look at the ground under your feet.

If it didn't belong to you before the conflict began then you are the offender.


That's a blanket statement. Of course, shall we get a map? You'll notice that the Sinai and Straights of Tiran were the means by which Egypt enforced a blockade on Israel in an attempt to strangle the state. So, unless you are willing to tell me that Israel can exist without trade, you are wrong. Similarly, the Golan Heights were the position by which Syrians could commit acts of agression, adn from which they launched numerous assaults on Israel. Therefore, in order to secure the safety of the state, the Golan Heights had to be taken, or the Syrians would simply have moved back in and resume shelling.

In essence, you do not know why Israel took and held these locations at the cost of hundreds of lives and millions of dollars.


If it was only survival Israel would have withdrawn long ago.

The occupation is the largest single source of hatred against them.

In order to survive Israel must allow an equitable solution.


The current state of Israel IS an equitable solution. All states are secure. The only persons causing trouble are the anti semites, and the Palestinians (who refuse to assimilate into Israeli society). As shown above, your conclusions are simply WRONG. The source of hatred is the indoctrination of the youth by radical clerics and politicians. the plight of the palestinians (largely of their own making) simply provides a focus for this hatred.

DE



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:33 PM
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ooooh oooooh ooooh one more statement just because I can.... they did give back the suez otherwise egypt would be a pyramids of giza tourist gift shop and y'all know it.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:34 PM
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I believe there will be peace for a time. Palastine has sacraficed almost all of their males with suicide, etc. What a waste. They are also hungry and want work.

As far as the position that Isreal is techno'd advanced more than the other privious countries that were enemies in 1967. But Hey! 1967 was 1967. And guess what eles that is not being told. The other nations surrounding Palistine was secretly being supplied with advanced weaponry for a reverse. Reverse? Yea just like the sneak attack in 1967. The new weapons will result in a stab in the back to the USA. Why? Because the advanced weapons are being supplied by the Chineese. The other countries will overcome Isreal on behalf of Palistine and Palistine will wear the jewels of Isreal. Meaning the infrastructure.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
How do you tell if you are offense, or defense?
You look at the ground under your feet.
If it didn't belong to you before the conflict began then you are the offender.


You just classified yourself as an offender. So if you can't and have not abided by your own whimsical ideology, then no one else should be expected to.

To the victors go the spoils. No one has yet to reinvent humanity, so deal with the "might brings right" paradigm. You're not going to invalidate the rights of conquest with hypocritical rhetoric that's main purpose is assuage your ethnocentric ego.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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The only persons causing trouble are the anti semites, and the Palestinians (who refuse to assimilate into Israeli society).


You really don't understand.

The Palestinians are not allowed to become Israeli citizens.

They are afforded no rights by the Israeli Occupational Army.

They are in a sort of legal limbo.

It is Israel that refuses to assimilate the Palestinians while also refusing to withdraw from their lands.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
The Palestinians are not allowed to become Israeli citizens.

They are afforded no rights by the Israeli Occupational Army.

They are in a sort of legal limbo.

It is Israel that refuses to assimilate the Palestinians while also refusing to withdraw from their lands.


Mayeb that's because they support foreign powers, or commit acts of terrorism. Maybe it's because they have a history of aiding and abetting the forces trying to obliterate the state of Israel. This has been shown, over and over again. Collaberation, and the constant insistence that Israel be destroyed seem good reasons to wtihdraw rights.

I have discussed the very valid reasons why they won't withdraw.

DE



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

Mayeb that's because they support foreign powers, or commit acts of terrorism. Maybe it's because they have a history of aiding and abetting the forces trying to obliterate the state of Israel. This has been shown, over and over again. Collaberation, and the constant insistence that Israel be destroyed seem good reasons to wtihdraw rights.


In order to 'withdraw' rights you would have to first give rights.

Are all four million of the Palestinians guilty of what you describe above?

Is it really reason to deny so many people their freedom?


I have discussed the very valid reasons why they won't withdraw.


If you did I must have missed them.

Maybe you could sum it up in clearer words.

What solution do you propose for the Palestinains in the occupied territories?


In essence, you do not know why Israel took and held these locations at the cost of hundreds of lives and millions of dollars.


I certainly do understand.

Because Israel wants the Palestinians land for their own.

It is selfishness pure and simple.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by ArchAngel]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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Looks like Abbas and Egpyt doesn't want any part of the current Hamas either. So there will be no deal with Hamas, until the internal and regional powers agree. The other option is civil war or regional war, and then they will agree by rules of conquest.


Hamas says Israel has opened 'gates of hell'

MAHMOUD Abbas, the Palestinian president, will refuse to ask the Hamas party to form the new government unless the radical movement recognises Israel and renounces violence, Egypt's intelligence chief claimed yesterday.

...they said the new government would have to adhere to the 1993 Oslo self-rule agreement with Israel and other international commitments of the Palestinian Authority, including the United States-backed "road map" peace plan, which lays out a two-state solution to the crisis.


Now if someone has a working model without spewing loads of hypocrisy, let's hear it. No that doesn't mean you ArchAngel, we already know you can't live by your own ideals.





[edit on 1-2-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
In order to 'withdraw' rights you would have to first give rights.

Are all four million of the Palestinians guilty of what you describe above?

Is it really reason to deny so many people their freedom?


When the better part of them advocate and would act upon any opportunity to destroy Israel? When they train their children to become suicide bombers? When they fight Israel at every step? When they threaten to destroy, Israel, yes. Take away their rights. This is what happens when you put people in prisons. And, for the record, Israel does allow Palestinians to work in Israel, like foreigne workers...which they basically are.


If you did I must have missed them.

Maybe you could sum it up in clearer words.


Without these territories, Israel will be under attack and in a position of significant disadvantage. Unless you support Syrian shelling of civilian settlements, you're SOL. These territories - the Sinai and the Golan Heights- are NOT palestinian.


What solution do you propose for the Palestinains in the occupied territories?


Make Palestine into a standing economic being, devote all their resources to removing the squallor, not explosives. If Palestinians are willing to make a go of peace, by all means. But that means stopping the flwo fo funds of suicide bombers and militants, and not collaborating with Arabic expansionism.


Because Israel wants the Palestinians land for their own.

It is selfishness pure and simple.


Of course, I laid out a simply worded and very clear historical and tactical precedent, but you're not listening. Like Sugarlumps, I tire of trying to teach someone who will not be taught.

To be frank, I tire of your anti-semetism. I hereby quit this thread- anyone who wants to try to teach Archangel, don't. His mind is closed.

DE



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 11:33 PM
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To be frank, I tire of your anti-semetism.


PLEASE show one example where I ever said anything anti-semitic.

Anti-Zionist certainly, but never Anti-Semitic.

If its Anti-Semitic to support equal rights then I am an Anti-Semite, and the world no longer has any meaning.

The hatred is your own.

You hate the Palestinians, and in my opinion that is no better than the people who really are Anti-Semites.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by ArchAngel]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 09:55 AM
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Hamas wants to make a deal? Since when is something like this a deal? They are not offering peace, just TRUCE. Plus they still think Israel needs to be destroyed. Basically they say something like "we are too weak to go to war with you now, so let us make a "deal" until we are strong enough to destroy you". I really see NO reason why should Israel to deal with them under such circumstances.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
If Israel withdraws from the territories it occupied in 1967, the movement will end armed resistance

And what about the PLO, and Islamic Resistance, and the Al-aqsa brigades, and al the other groups? Will hamas police the palestinians and execute anyone that breaks the peace and attacks israel?


The fact that Hamas does not, and will not, recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel does not mean that Hamas is not capable of negotiating a peace deal that would end the bloodshed. Hamas is prepared to negotiate a settlement based on the concept of a hudnah (truce).

Why the heck would the yehudis accept a truce? They have the upper hand. They occupy the palestinians. They don't need a truce that will be broken once the palestinians have sufficient military power to attack. The yehudis have no reason to accept anything other than complete recognition of a two state system and a peace treaty between israel and palestine.

[edit on 2-2-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:08 AM
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The topic of this thread isn't 'Who hates the jews' its Hamas' offer of a cessation of attacks in exchange for an end to the occupation without recognition of israel. Please discuss that.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Apparently, from a reading of the posts on this Thread, none of the intellectuals have read Isreali history. How do you think Isreal obtained its independence from Britain? Terrorism as we modern day types coin it. The only difference is that Isreal considered their males as precious other than sending them on suicide missions, especially the youth. It is just a tecnique that they learned from Isreals history books. Now where is the blame game?

Is all about the crushing of them economically and the Palistinian civil infrastructure i.e. hospitals, markets, jobs, money, Yea where is Palistine going to get their money to run this new government. Just where country that the news is not telling you. Isreall itself or America. in order for the Isrealis to make Palistine submissive, not through warfar and HAMAS knows it, all their sons are gone, just old men are left. Palistine is also looking to the future and will make peace, for a time. They need to build their male population that they blew up themselves. You are going to see peace there for about seven years. Then Syria, ect., like 1967 with tactics reversed. Surprise!



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Ravenmock1


Apparently, from a reading of the posts on this Thread, none of the intellectuals have read Isreali history. How do you think Isreal obtained its independence from Britain? Terrorism as we modern day types coin it. The only difference is that Isreal considered their males as precious other than sending them on suicide missions, especially the youth. It is just a tecnique that they learned from Isreals history books. Now where is the blame game?


SomeIsraelies used violence against British, however I don't remeber anyone of them deliberately killing British civilians, woman and children. They attacked soldiers. I also don't remeber any Israelies blowing themselves in London.
But Hamas and such groups are targeting almost exclisively civillians, they are too big cowards to fight guerilla war against Israeli army.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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SomeIsraelies used violence against British, however I don't remeber anyone of them deliberately killing British civilians, woman and children. They attacked soldiers. I also don't remeber any Israelies blowing themselves in London.
But Hamas and such groups are targeting almost exclisively civillians, they are too big cowards to fight guerilla war against Israeli army.


Hello Longbow

I really don't want to get into the 'who is the bigger victim' debate, because it goes around in circle, but anyways, here are 2 good examples of terrorism in the best sense of the word during the founding of Israel.

91 dead civilians

UN peace envoy murdered

As the moderator said though - this is *not* about who is the biggest b*****d, it's about whether or not Hamas will go for peace.

Here's a BBC middle-eastern correspondant's opinion:

BBC op ed

And here's their opinion of the probable new PM

New PM?

If they get into government, and if they carry on violence, they'll get precisely nothing from the international community, and donations appears to be the only way Gaza stays afloat. It would destroy them politically, and it must surely be concentrating their minds as we write this.

TD


[edit on 2-2-2006 by TaupeDragon]



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:00 PM
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Hamas has called many times for the destruction of Isreal they are backed by Iran whose president wants to wipe Isreal off the map and you really believe Hamas wants peace. Wow.



posted on Feb, 2 2006 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by gallopinghordes
Hamas has called many times for the destruction of Isreal they are backed by Iran whose president wants to wipe Isreal off the map and you really believe Hamas wants peace. Wow.


Hey. Was this a reply to my post? Where have I said that Hamas wants peace? If this wasn't aimed at me, I apologize!

TD



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel

Originally posted by DeusEx
In essence, you do not know why Israel took and held these locations at the cost of hundreds of lives and millions of dollars.

I certainly do understand.
Because Israel wants the Palestinians land for their own.
It is selfishness pure and simple.

THAT I think we can safely say is the crux of your misconception !
The Land that the Palestinians have is more fertile, has easier access to water, has better geocgraphics and hold most of the religious sites in Palestine.
Despite these glaring disadvantages the Israelis have progressed through dedication and ingenuity while the Palestinian arabs have been caught up with their belligerance and forgotten to take hold of their land.
Today Palestine Authority controlled areas have effectively degenrated into a vast unending ghetto with a few points of development while the Jewish pockets are in much better conditions. This disparity in the quality of life which they face now is due to their demographic strategies they have employed. This disparity has inturn caused jelousy and hatered towards the Israelis whom they "feel" have deprived them of something while in actuall fact the Isreali portion and the Arab portion of Palestine were relatively same during the 1947 split.
Thus it is in fac the Palestinians who seek Israeli land rather than the other way around. The Jews would get nothing by taking Palestine as the entire area would have to be levelled, fumigated and cleared off before this land could be used to resettle on. Also the basic infrastructral facilites that were ment to be maintained and that the PA claims it need the money to maintain are all in a state of disrepair and non-exsistent in some parts. With the situation so abysmal in the Arab areas why would the Isreali seek to take their land. Israel has already stabilized its water requirements and through technology has reformed their agricultureal needs, so even these advantages afforded by the Arab areas are no longer there.
The only reason someone would assume to insinuate that Israel is greedy because they wanted to protect their cities and their towns form Arab assault is because they cant look past their own prejudice against the Jews of Israel and have lent themselves to be a party of the popular arab slander house.



[edit on 3-2-2006 by IAF101]



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