Everyone...you need to understand that bsl is just a med student and only knows what he reads in books. He hasn't experienced much in the real world. bsl: Mercury is Mercury is Mercury. It's ALL bad and all toxic and all quite poisonous...so spare us the lecture on ethyl and methyl mercury vs. plain old mercury. If I mix a pile of crap with a pile of roses, as far as I'm concerned, I still end up with a pile of crap.

So, excitable boy, if "mercury is mercury is mercury", can you explain to me why you can ingest TONS of ethanol (CH3CH2OH) and survive, but if you ingest a considerably smaller amount of methanol (CH2OH), it can cause liver and brain damage? I mean, the elements are there, carbon is carbon, oxygen is oxygen, hydrogen is hydrogen, and yet the polarity and molecular size of these compounds varies and thus changes their characteristics. The same goes for molecular mercury (Hg2) and thimerosal (C9H9HgO2SNA). Very different compounds, very different traits.

I realize not everyone has had the benefit of taking organics chemistry and biochemistry, but this does not allow you to ignore information just because you personally have never read it.

Oh, and as to your personal attack on me, thanks! I really appreciate it. I love you so much for being so rude, really, it just makes me realize you're backed into a corner and must resort to personal attacks to feed your ego. It really brightens my day. Buongiorno!

~MFP

P.S. Although you seem to painting yourself a saint in this argument, your ATS points tell otherwise. Seems you have a habit of making personal attacks when you're out of real ammo, no?

[edit on 2/3/2006 by bsl4doc]

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Demetre
Don't worry about any measles outbreak. There's what's called 'herd immunity'. Another reason I had no problems refusing vaccines.

Great glad we can keep your kids safe to compensate for your neglect . Funny just a few posts ago, someone posted a negative comment about owrrying about the greater good or "Do no evil at all"

"Hello Kettle, its the Pot..... YOUR black"

SO i ask again. Are you willing to sign a binding document stating that you will pay out of pocket all the incured medical expenses. I mean again why should the herd pay for this level of neglect?

Not sure what Your refering to. I didn't post anything concerning "Do no evil at all"??? I guarantee that My children are in better hands with holistic medicine than anything else out there right now. I'm many things but neglectful with My children I'm not. There are many of Us who choose not to vaccinate Our children. We can't ALL be neglectful now. That's what Your saying anyway. Generalize much? Don't be mad-just do your research. BTW, can You say "BAAAA"?

Peace. K*

I was wondering if you are in the US. Also, when you gave birth to your children did they receive the Hep B vaccine or did you decline? If you declined what did the doctor say to you. Did you receive warnings or "static" of any kind? In my state, it clearly says on my first child's immunization records (I didn't have all the information I do now, so he was fully vaccinated) that "You MUST comply with XX state immunization laws to attend school." Now true that I do, now, homeschool my first child, this concerns me a bit for my second. Not that I intend on putting him in public school, but what about college and other areas in which he may need this "PROOF" I was just wondering if you had encountered any negativity from anyone/anyplace about these laws and how you handled the situation. Also I assume your children are healthy correct?

Hey Demetre, I noticed you were back on. I directed these questions at you earlier but can understand if they got lost. Would you be willing to answer these?

Originally posted by conspiracy_101
Demetre

I was wondering if you are in the US. Also, when you gave birth to your children did they receive the Hep B vaccine or did you decline? If you declined what did the doctor say to you. Did you receive warnings or "static" of any kind? In my state, it clearly says on my first child's immunization records (I didn't have all the information I do now, so he was fully vaccinated) that "You MUST comply with XX state immunization laws to attend school." Now true that I do, now, homeschool my first child, this concerns me a bit for my second. Not that I intend on putting him in public school, but what about college and other areas in which he may need this "PROOF" I was just wondering if you had encountered any negativity from anyone/anyplace about these laws and how you handled the situation. Also I assume your children are healthy correct?

Sorry for the delay. Yes, I live in PA. I've refused vaccinations for My children since 2001. My son has had all of the vaccinations required up to age 4. My daughter has had hers up to age 18 mo. I've not encountered any resistance from anyone. Living where I do includes lots of Amish, they don't vaccinate either. I'm sure I'll run into at some time. Look up 'exemption from vaccinations' online. I just told the school that unfortunately I wasn't aware of the dangers concerning vaccinations until recently. My children are very happy, very healthy, very well-adjusted. They know why I chose not to vaccinate them. They also know that 'going with the flow' isn't always right, no matter how long everyones been doing it. When the medicine has a higher incident rate than the disease it's supposed cure I gotta ? it. There is nothing wrong with vaccinating Your children IF You've done Your research. I think we owe it to Ourselves as well as Our kids to ? why We do things, and change 'em if need be. Lotsa people have been vaccinated and couldn't be healthier. I was vaccinated, oh, but I did have a negative reaction to the smallpox vaccination that I recieved when I was a baby. The scar covered most of My right side at one time but has healed very nicely, only 2 small spots remain.
Read up on the subject. Take into consideration all pros & cons and decide from there. Any conclusion that You come to will be the perfect one for You and Yours. Just trust Yourself.

Hello KDX
{EDIT}

I deleted the Amish reply I originally posted! Anyway....sorry, tired now.

Very interesting stuff about the Amish, read both your links. Only thing I would say is YES, it deserves a proper study, and if it finds evidence of a difference, then the anti-vaccination camp have good evidence. At the moment, as the doc in post 2 says - it's 'anecdotal'

Confounders in any study could be that the Amish are a genetic isolate. If autism = genetics+enviroment, you may be getting 'false results'. But again, yes.....a study would be very well worthwhile.

No. 10 summary needs quoting in full - IT COULD AFFECT THE GEIER STUDY VALUES (TM CAUSES PROBLEMS PEOPLE)

OBJECTIVE: The US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a passive reporting system to which anyone can report an event. Publicity related to potential adverse events may change reporting patterns. The objective of this paper is to show how litigation-related reports have influenced the trends in possible adverse event reports to VAERS. METHODS: The VAERS public-use data files were downloaded in July 2004 and translated into identical SAS data sets for analysis. Cases that were related to litigation were identified using a word search algorithm. All cases for the most frequently reported symptoms in litigation (overdose, neuropathy, autism, "mental retardation," arthralgia, and "speech disorder") were reviewed. RESULTS: In recent years, most case reports to VAERS that were related to overdose, neuropathy, and thimerosal were related to litigation. Many cases that were related to autism and mental retardation were as well. CONCLUSIONS: This review shows a previously undisclosed rise in the number of reports to the VAERS related to pending litigation for vaccine injury. The implications of this for understanding longitudinal reporting patterns are discussed.

The Geiers I think do work for drug vaccine damage cases. BUT, they are in Pubmed, which means they pass the first test - which is *ignore anything that ain't in Pubmed*.



I think you can split the ones I put on my clipboard into a few camps. I've numbered them according to the PubMed listings below. I have summarized summaries to the best of my ability, but....BSL4DOC CAN YOU MAYBE CRITIQUE THE 'TM CAUSES PROBLEMS ARTICLES???

Any faults in the 'summary of the summaries' is entirely mine!

NO ASSOCIATION OF TM WITH PROBLEMS

1 - done on 100 000 + kids in the UK (retrospective) didn't find any big correlation in dose of TM to various disorders, apart from (maybe) 'tics'

2 - prospective study on 14000 kids in the UK. Found a 'beneficial effect' of TM on development, contrary to expectations

6 - 400000+ kids, no TM and TM-free differences in autism rates. No dose response link either

8 - US, Sweden and Danes all noted Autism Rates going up, however Scandics never bothered much with TM, and more or less eliminated it.

15 - Review of various articles on Pubmed (damn. That's an hour of my life wasted. '. The preponderance of epidemiologic evidence does not support an association between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD. Epidemiologic studies that support an association are of poor quality and cannot be interpreted. Pharmacokinetic studies suggest that the half-life of ethylmercury is significantly shorter when compared with methylmercury. CONCLUSIONS: Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.'

TM SAFE BUT PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE GOOD IDEA

12 - no demonstrable risk, and safe HOWEVER 'it is at least theoretically possible that very low birth weight premature infants may be at increased risk from thiomersal-containing vaccines. Until such time as the scientific evidence is to hand, thiomersal-free presentations of hepatitis B are to be preferred for the birth dose'

13 - Precautionary principle. Replace it. Theoretical risks in neurological development in 6 months olds and the fetus

14 - NO conclusive evidence, but precuationary principle, and 'relatively smaller bodyweight of infants has led to concern that the cumulative exposure of mercury from infant vaccines may exceed certain guidelines for the human consumption of mercury. In the US, government agencies and professional societies have recently recommended that thiomersal be removed altogether'

16 - TM being phased out because of concerns it may exceed max dose mercury multiple vaccinations

TM DOES CAUSE PROBLEMS

3 - 'In vitro, mercury and thimerosal in levels found several days after vaccination inhibit methionine synthetase (MS) by 50%. Normal function of MS is crucial in biochemical steps necessary for brain development, attention and production of glutathione, an important antioxidative and detoxifying agent. Repetitive doses of thimerosal leads to neurobehavioral deteriorations in autoimmune susceptible mice, increased oxidative stress and decreased intracellular levels of glutathione in vitro. Subsequently, autistic children have significantly decreased level of reduced glutathione. Promising treatments of autism involve detoxification of mercury, and supplementation of deficient metabolites.'

4,5,7,9 - Significantly increased odds ratios for TM vaccines linked to doses given (DTP)

*NOTE* - this passed my 'if it's not in PubMed I'm not paying any attention to it' test, HOWEVER, The Geiers do appear to be 'expert witnesses' for vaccine damage lawyers. Maybe a conflict of interest to be aware off. Nevertheless - peer reviewed journals, I think. BSL4DOC COULD YOU CONFIRM THAT?

MISCELLANEOUS REF

11 - thiomersal is a useful preservative, not really needed so much in Western countries but maybe important in developing countries to stop contamination

And that's about it.

Would like to know some more about the Geier's, their methods and the quality of their studies.....maybe someone else could look into it.

Off to bed now!

TD


***********************************************************************
1: Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a retrospective cohort study in the United kingdom does not support a causal association.
Pediatrics. 2004 Sep;114(3):584-91.
PMID: 15342825 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Heron J, Golding J; ALSPAC Study Team. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a prospective cohort study in the United kingdom does not support a causal association.
Pediatrics. 2004 Sep;114(3):577-83.
PMID: 15342824 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Mutter J, Naumann J, Schneider R, Walach H, Haley B. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Mercury and autism: accelerating evidence?
Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005 Oct;26(5):439-46.
PMID: 16264412 [PubMed - in process]
4: Geier D, Geier MR. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing childhood immunizations: a follow-up analysis.
Int J Toxicol. 2004 Nov-Dec;23(6):369-76.
PMID: 15764492 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Geier DA, Geier MR. Related Articles, Links
Abstract An assessment of the impact of thimerosal on childhood neurodevelopmental disorders.
Pediatr Rehabil. 2003 Apr-Jun;6(2):97-102.
PMID: 14534046 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text Association between thimerosal-containing vaccine and autism.
JAMA. 2003 Oct 1;290(13):1763-6.
PMID: 14519711 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Geier DA, Geier MR. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text A two-phased population epidemiological study of the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines: a follow-up analysis.
Med Sci Monit. 2005 Apr;11(4):CR160-70. Epub 2005 Mar 24.
PMID: 15795695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8: Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Autism and thimerosal-containing vaccines: lack of consistent evidence for an association.
Am J Prev Med. 2003 Aug;25(2):101-6.
PMID: 12880876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9: Geier DA, Geier MR. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text A comparative evaluation of the effects of MMR immunization and mercury doses from thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines on the population prevalence of autism.
Med Sci Monit. 2004 Mar;10(3)I33-9. Epub 2004 Mar 1.
PMID: 14976450 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10: Goodman MJ, Nordin J. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies.
Pediatrics. 2006 Feb;117(2):387-390.
PMID: 16452357 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
11: Clements CJ, McIntyre PB. Related Articles, Links
Abstract When science is not enough - a risk/benefit profile of thiomersal-containing vaccines.
Expert Opin Drug Saf. 2006 Jan;5(1):17-29.
PMID: 16370953 [PubMed - in process]
12: Clements CJ. Related Articles, Links
Abstract The evidence for the safety of thiomersal in newborn and infant vaccines.
Vaccine. 2004 May 7;22(15-16):1854-61. Review.
PMID: 15121295 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13: van't Veen AJ. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Vaccines without thiomersal: why so necessary, why so long coming?
Drugs. 2001;61(5):565-72. Review.
PMID: 11368282 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14: Clements CJ, Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Thiomersal in vaccines: is removal warranted?
Drug Saf. 2001;24(8):567-74. Review.
PMID: 11480489 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
15: Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data.
Pediatrics. 2004 Sep;114(3):793-804. Review. Erratum in: Pediatrics. 2005 Jan;115(1):200.
PMID: 15342856 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
16: Kimmel SR. Related Articles, Links
Free Full Text Vaccine adverse events: separating myth from reality.
Am Fam Physician. 2002 Dec 1;66(11):2113-20. Review.
PMID: 12484693 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
17: Patton MA. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Genetic studies in the Amish community.
Ann Hum Biol. 2005 Mar-Apr;32(2):163-7. Review.
PMID: 16096212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
***********************************************************************




[edit on 4-2-2006 by TaupeDragon]

Taupe:
VERY impressive and plausible research you've present. Yes, I've heard of Geier before, the work is credible. The main thing that sticks in my maw over it though is that a lot of their research is looking at the problems caused by molecular mercury and then assuming it is there due to thimerosal. I think it was you that mentioned earlier that obviously, mercury and other heave metals are every where around us and are present in abot everything. I do not doubt that a small fraction of the mercury in the children's system may be metabolites of thimerosal, however, this quantity alone does not cause problems. When compounded in children near industrial areas, cities, factories, or just unclean areas, the mercury becomes dangerously high. This could account for the "Where are the autistic amish" link someone mentioned earlier. Obviously, a simpler life style with no heavy manufacturing would reduce their exposure to mercury.

All in all, sure, I don't don't doubt thimerosal is bad and may cause problems. Is it the cause of autism? No, I don't think so. I think if mercury is even linked to autism, it is more likely the autism is environmental, not vaccine related.

Again, amazingly well done research Taupe. Actually had me thinking for a while. I like that. You get a vote for way above.

Molto bene e grazie mille,
~MFP

Hello Conspiracy 101

If you go to pubmed.com, and type in the PMID number it brings up the article for you. But anyway, seeing as I still have the window open


This is the no. 2 summary you asked for the info on

OBJECTIVE: There is an established link between exposure to mercury and impaired childhood cognitive development and early motor skills. Thimerosal (also known as thiomersal), a preservative used in a number of children's vaccines, contains ethylmercury (an organic compound of mercury), and there has been concern that this exposure to mercury may be of some detriment to young children. The aim of this research was to test in a large United Kingdom population-based cohort whether there is any evidence to justify such concerns. METHODS: We used population data from a longitudinal study on childhood health and development. The study has been monitoring >14,000 children who are from the geographic area formerly known as Avon, United Kingdom, and were delivered in 1991-1992. The age at which doses of thimerosal-containing vaccines were administered was recorded, and measures of mercury exposure by 3, 4, and 6 months of age were calculated and compared with a number of measures of childhood cognitive and behavioral development covering the period from 6 to 91 months of age. RESULTS: Contrary to expectation, it was common for the unadjusted results to suggest a beneficial effect of thimerosal exposure. For example, exposure at 3 months was inversely associated with hyperactivity and conduct problems at 47 months; motor development at 6 months and at 30 months; difficulties with sounds at 81 months; and speech therapy, special needs, and "statementing" at 91 months. After adjustment for birth weight, gestation, gender, maternal education, parity, housing tenure, maternal smoking, breastfeeding, and ethnic origins, we found 1 result of 69 to be in the direction hypothesized-poor prosocial behavior at 47 months was associated with exposure by 3 months of age (odds ratio: 1.12; 95% confidence interval: 1.01-1.23) compared with 8 results that still supported a beneficial effect. CONCLUSIONS: We could find no convincing evidence that early exposure to thimerosal had any deleterious effect on neurologic or psychological outcome.


That's me! No more! Bed!

Just to restress, and this really is my last post, I'm knackered - the Geiers, I think, get their data, at least from the PubMed stuff from VAERS, which is a passive reporting system of adverse effects to vaccines - anyone can report.

So is an increase in reporting due to vaccination? Or due to increased publicity.

Too tired to think about this any more.

Night all!

TD

BAH!!

quote -
"Results of the study should be available in September 2007, Nowak said. "
"The study includes 300 children with ASDs, 200 of whom have full-syndrome autism, as well as a comparison group of children who do not have the disorders. "

I don't understand... only 600 children in this study? From the mighty CDC?
And they won't be available until Sept 2007?

looks like they might be dragging their feet on this, and trying to save face at the same time.

Political conspiracy against our children.


[edit on 4-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

Hm.

Hello KDX

Is 300 and 300 statistically valid? Might be - probably not as convincing as 100,000, but then again maybe you will not lose smaller individual factors being 'averaged' out in huge studies.

I know that in periodontology, the original statistics made the mistake of 'averaging' out mean gum pocket values - so it was assumed that gum disease was an slow, irreversible process that affected all the teeth eventually leading to total tooth loss. More advanced statistics in a population showed that

1 it progressed sporadically with bursts of activity and quiescence
2 only some people were affected
3 of the affected people some teeth were unaffected.

This is totally off-topic, I know, but medical or dental statistics is a complete nightmare, and despite doing the courses I don't feel qualified enough to comment with great confidence.

I'm not a medical statistician - maybe BSL4doc could comment about whether not this makes for a good study. It might.

Certainly better than Andrew Bloody Wakefield and his 12 kids that started the whole MMR thing in the UK.

I don't know if they are dragging their feet, or engaged in a conspiracy. I'd bet money plays a role - Evidence Level 1 studies are ruinously expensive. They also take time to do - so maybe the 2007 date is a reflection of that.

TD

Hey Taupe,

I'm not really in epidemiology or medical statistics classes, so I'm not sure as far as study size, but I would think 600 would be a decent enough size to extrapolate data. I've seen neurological and cancer studies with fewer people.

Yes, thank you for the reply Taupe.

It seems such a small sample of children to me...
Maybe they should do a "parallel" study of larger numbers and compare the findings. Or do we have to keep drawing this research out?

How many Autism research dollars make it to the research we keep demanding?

Everyone including myself, will want to see the full study when it is complete, and go over the data set.
To see that the study is valid, and no sleight of hand is going on.

I suppose we will have to withhold judgement until Q3 2007...

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick , tock, tick, tock, the clock is ticking...



Lance - Yes, I believe more studys need to happen, considering the Amish Anomoly. They need to look at Asthma, and other diseases on the rise as well. They need to look at the specific environmental differences.


[edit on 4-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]