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Childhood Vaccinations??

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posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:01 AM
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NJE, may statement was in response to this:


If you are just a character, then thank you for keeping this thread alive, and providing us an example of the ignorant statements and cemented ideas, of many of the medical profession, including the newly initiated students.


I highly doubt the moderators would approve of "ignorant statements and cemented ideas". I'm certainly not saying I'm absolutely right, or that their applause warrants that. I'm saying my statements were well thought out and supported. Not necessarily right.




posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:37 AM
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The symptoms of autism and the symptoms of mercury poisoning are identical.

Typical neurological manifestations of mercury poisoning in children include delayed speech, lack of eye contact, impaired or non-present social skills, shyness, perseverative behavior (doing the same thing repeatedly), delayed gross or fine motor skills, sensory integration issues (sound, light, oral, and touch sensitivity), not responding to one's name, inflexibility with transitions, and major, often unexplained, changes in mood. Typical physical manifestations of mercury poisoning in children include food allergies and eczema, general gastrointestinal distress, constipation and diarrhea, yeast overgrowth, lowered immunity, and sleep disturbances. Typical additional physical manifestations where mercury is the likely cause include asthma, juvenile onset diabetes, and other auto-immune reactions.

In a groundbreaking study, Autism: A Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning, the authors conclude:

"We have shown that every major characteristic of autism has been exhibited in at least several cases of documented mercury poisoning."

So this THEORY leads me to believe many patients diagnosed with Autism COULD have been misdiagnosed (due to lack of mercury testing).

The symptoms of Asperger's, PDD-NOS, ADHD, and ADD and the symptoms of mercury poisoning are also identical.

Mercury poisoning manifests itself in a wide variety of ways in different people. Differences in manifestations are due to individual biochemistry and genetic susceptibilities, gender, amount of mercury received, age of exposure, form of mercury, and the presence of other synergistic toxins during exposure to name a few.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:39 AM
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Autism epidemics have begun in other countries and the timing of those epidemics parallel the introduction of universal vaccination programs with Thimerosal-containing vaccines.

Here is a quite from Evidence Of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy, a new book by New York Times contributing writer David Kirby:

"Autism has rarely been reported outside of industrialized countries, at least until recent years. A good example is China, where companies such as Merck and Glaxo-SmithKline have begun an aggressive pediatric marketing campaign, selling millions of dollars in vaccines to the Communist Government, including pediatric hepatitis B, DTP, HiB, MMR and others. On August 11, 2004, the official Chinese news agency, Xinhua, reported that children suffering with autism in that country had suddenly and unexpectedly skyrocketed. In a few short years, the number of reported cases jumped from nearly nothing to some 1.8 million children in 2004. One researcher "estimated that the number of Chinese children with autism was growing at an annual rate of 20 percent, even higher than the world average of 14 percent," the news agency reported. Other increases in autism cases are currently being reported in such far-flung countries as Indonesia, Argentina, India and Nigeria. If thimerosal is one day proven to be a contributing factor to autism, and if U.S.-made vaccines containing the preservative are now being supplied to infants the world over, the scope of this potential tragedy becomes almost unthinkable."



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by bsl4doc




I'm certainly not saying I'm absolutely right, or that their applause warrants that.
Applause?????

Oh I didn't know Moderators applauded? Best Freudian slip I have seen for a while! applause...?????

You have attached the Mod's contribution to your agenda...making it something more than what it is. A Moderator is entitled to have an opinion, just as members do....it doesn't mean they are applauding you because they ask questions that appear to support your argument! And it certainly, most certainly does not mean you are right....and others are wrong...because a Mod agrees with you.

Why, your given an inch and you park in it.....





posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:55 AM
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Few more worthy notes I found

In 1998, The FDA banned the use of Thimerosal in OTC products

In April 1998, 16 years after expressing concern about Thimerosal, the FDA banned its use in topical (on the skin) over-the-counter products. No mention was made of the Thimerosal still present in vaccines administered to infants

In the early 1990's, Thimerosal was banned from small animal vaccines because of its toxicity.

Writes journalist Evelyn Pringle:

"This is ironic in view of the fact that Thimerosal was removed from animal vaccines in the early 90s. Rita Shreffler, the mother of son diagnosed with a form of autism, told Mother Jones about the time she tried to explain that her son had been vaccinated with Thimerosal to Wayne Middleton, of Middleton Microbiological & Environmental Testing Laboratory, in 2001, 'When I explained that a vaccine preservative called Thimerosal had exposed babies to excessive levels of mercury, he said that couldn't be true because he used to work for a lab that made animal vaccines, and Thimerosal had been discontinued in vaccines for cattle back in the early 1990s. He was sure it wouldn't be allowed in children's vaccines,' Rita said."


HOWS THIS FOR SOME NEWS


When the amount of ethlymercury in the The Universal Immunization Recommendations of the Center For Disease Control was increased 246% in the early 1990s, no agency alerted parents or doctors to the change or the potential for increased risk.

There is no record of any warning ever being provided to parents. Doctors are under no obligation to mention that mercury is included in vaccines. Parents have never been advised that vaccines exceed EPA and FDA safe limits for mercury.

The U.S. House of Representatives' Government Reform Committee concluded:

"Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines is likely related to the autism epidemic. This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding injected thimerosal and the sharp rise of infant exposure to this known neurotoxin. Our public health agencies' failure to act is indicative of institutional malfeasance for self-protection and misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry."


It's a simple concept: kids shouldn't be given anything that's toxic. Who would argue with that? Vaccines can be made without mercury, so why not remove the mercury and remove any doubt?""


[edit on 8-2-2006 by dirty_underground]

[edit on 8-2-2006 by dirty_underground]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by bsl4doc
That's why I didn't answer your questiong and why you got the response you did, Riley. You took my sarcastic remark to another user somehow as an insult, and then make baseless accusations towards me and generalize me as "an italian". So, no. I don't regret what I said.

~MFP

I made a point about biggotry.. I thought it would've been pretty obvious to even the most dimmest. I said NOTHING derogatory about italians [your assumption].. yet you thought you had the right to insult aussies. All I said was "Thats right you're italian." in response to racist insults; the rules suddenly changed. Guess what? You got offended. You didn't like it and I didn't even pin an insult to it like you did.. [you also made a quip about us having no culture]. Next time you want to insult people.. don't try cower away from it by calling it 'sarcasm' and don't try hide from the censors and mods by saying "F-you" in italian.

Moving on..

On a side note, my g/f wants to get my youngest tested also.. I already know the answer but we will see where it goes from there.

I'm still waiting on results for my tests.. if they are positive other members of my family may get tested as well. Even if we can't find conclusive evidence outside ATS.. we can find it on our own. Unless someone is exposed to merury through work etc. or breaks a thermometer, I don't think there are many other ways to get exposed to high levels of it [especially children] apart from the vaccines and possibly fillings.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by riley]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 02:59 AM
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Hi Riley... how did you go with the tests?

sorry to get sidetracked with the med student...


edit: sorry, just read your post above... I was curious though to see how you went because were you having probs getting the results back?


[edit on 8-2-2006 by NJE777]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 03:11 AM
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Hopefully it will be soon.. I had to get the copper one re-done today [felt like a rusty nail] because of a 'computer error' [they probably threw out the vile or something] and the mercury is apparently still getting analised. I'll let you know when they come in.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 06:05 AM
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Riley
I was wondering how (urine, blood, hair, etc..) the doctor was performing your tests, specifically the mercury test. And if you just went to your regular doctor or a specialist?

I would like to add a quote from an outside source on metal testing.




since the metal molecules can stick to the inside of cells and not show up in urine or blood. Liver and Colon biopsy testing for heavy metals would be one way to measure levels of metals stuck-in-cells, yet Docs are hesitant to do invasive tests after seeing no metal in urine. It is well understood that heavy metals can definitely cause fatigue by binding to the internal biochemistry and inactivating internal processes.



As I know you have looked into testing already the next quote is more for the others.




Urine- A urine test is the best test to evaluate ongoing exposure to mercury, such as exposure at work. This is not the right test for mercury from fish. If urine results are elevated, there is an exposure source which is not fish. Results greater than 20 micrograms per liter (20 ug/L) may indicate a hazardous level of mercury in the body.






Blood- A blood test measures recent exposure to all types of mercury, including mercury from fish. Results greater than 2.8 micrograms per deciliter (2.8 ug/dL) may indicate a hazardous level of mercury in the body





Urine and Blood -If you want to evaluate other sources of mercury exposure in addition to exposure from fish, both a urine and a blood test should be performed at the same time. If the blood test is elevated and the urine test (taken at the same time) is normal, fish ingestion is probably the source of mercury exposure. If both tests are elevated, exposure is coming from some exposure source besides fish.





Hair- This test is not recommended except in unusual cases to test a mother's hair to estimate her child's exposure before birth.


(sorry I couldn't seem to get them posted in the same box)


Also I saw some notes that said Mercury exposure could lead to sleep difficulties (by way of affecting the melatonin levels in the body). Does anyone know any more info on this.
Riley, do you have any difficulty in sleeping or with your sleep patterns. I know my son's sleep patterns are continously cycling around (in constant change). He has been know to stay up for very long periods of time. No matter what (we even tried medication for awhile) and he was not affected by it. Just wondering if this could be a factor in mercury poisoning.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 06:21 AM
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Also I wanted to post this link about Mercury. It has several articles, press releases, etc... on Mercury and vaccines (their are some that may not apply to this particular thread). I only wanted to post it for the articles (several pages worth) listed. There have many questions/skepticism on journals/articles/releases of information and I thought this could be helpful to some. While some may think of this site as biased (which in fact, I'm certain that it is) there are some things listed that are fact (and fact is fact no matter who states it).

Mercury Exposure-Press Releases




***Also as a side note to whoever mentioned it earlier something about UFO's and conspiracy sites and what not....I think we are all here because of one main common thought...we haven't been given the whole truth about everything and just maybe.....just maybe there is more truth to a story than what we are told. If not, then why would you even bother with a site such as this? Just a thought............



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 07:40 AM
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The symptoms of autism and the symptoms of mercury poisoning are identical.


Wrong. Mercury poisoning is most often from methyl mercury. Thimerosal breaks down to ethyl mercury. Link


Autism epidemics have begun in other countries and the timing of those epidemics parallel the introduction of universal vaccination programs with Thimerosal-containing vaccines.


Wrong. See my link on the previous page about the Japanese study.

Oh, and NJE, they do give applause. You get a little U2U that says "Applause!" and you get 250 points. I guess you haven't gotten any. And how would that be a Freudian slip? A Freudian slip is replacing one word with another you are thinking about at the moment. I don't think Freudian slip means what you think it means.

~MFP

[edit on 2/8/2006 by bsl4doc]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by conspiracy_101
Riley
I was wondering how (urine, blood, hair, etc..) the doctor was performing your tests, specifically the mercury test. And if you just went to your regular doctor or a specialist?

Regular doctor sent me off for a blood test.

Thanks for the info you provided.. have you got a source on that?


Riley, do you have any difficulty in sleeping or with your sleep patterns. I know my son's sleep patterns are continously cycling around (in constant change). He has been know to stay up for very long periods of time. No matter what (we even tried medication for awhile) and he was not affected by it. Just wondering if this could be a factor in mercury poisoning.

Thats my main reason for getting tested. I need to get some sleep.
My brain is in constant overdrive and it's frustrating and means I spend the majority of my days worn out.
I guess it couldn't hurt getting your son checked if only to rule that possibility out.. I hope he improves soon.

www.idph.state.il.us...
Chronic exposure to lower levels of mercury vapor causes effects to the central nervous system. Symptoms of chronic poisoning vary, but may include tremors, psychological changes, insomnia, loss of appetite, irritability, headache and short-term memory loss.

Direct contact with the skin can lead to dermatitis. A rare syndrome called acrodynia, or “pink’s disease,” can occur in children exposed to mercury vapor. Its symptoms include severe leg cramps, irritability and painful pink fingers with peeling hands. Few children exposed to mercury develop acrodynia.


[edit on 8-2-2006 by riley]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by NJE777

Oh I didn't know Moderators applauded? Best Freudian slip I have seen for a while! applause...?????


Please remain civil in your responses.

And yes, for your information, mods can applaud. So can FSMEs. So can supermoderators. Most members know this.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by KDX175DUEX
Ok bsl4doc -

I opened my arguement with a 1991 Thimerosal MSDS direct from the manufacturer.
Thimerosal Material Safety Data Sheet 1991
Which states that Mental Retardation could be a side effect.


The operant word is "could"... not "is."

Now... let me present a few things you might not have thought of:
* Before 1991, billions of children were vaccinated with vaccines containing mercury -- including military brats like myself.
* Before 1970, the number of shots that kids got was much higher than today (I don't think a year went by that my brother and I were not vaccinated for something or another. My dad, as a child, also had lots of vaccinations.)

Where are the huge numbers of autistic people that should have resulted from those vaccines?

Further, the level of mercury in fish is higher than that in any single vaccination. www.cfsan.fda.gov...

Why aren't the children of people who eat fish having a high rate of autism? Why don't countries where the principle protein source is fish have a high rate of autism?
www.rochester.edu...



You enter the debate with this stance:

bsl4doc -Also, if 3-6 in 1,000 children having autism is too high a rate of side effects for you, perhaps you should consider the other 994 children who won't contract measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, etc. .

And later you responded with this:

bsl4doc - I don't see why you and a few other people think it's okay for a pandemic of measles, mumps, and rubella to occur just to prevent 3 out of 1000 children from developing an autism spectrum disorder.

So at this point everyone in the thread thinks you are aware of the problem, and explain it as a necessary causualty of the vaccine age.
Basically saying that it is ok to make new diseases if you can fight other diseases.


There's no "new disease" being made here. Autism was around for a long time before vaccination and the kids usually died very early.

The ethical question being asked is: "Do you not vaccinate and allow the death of thousands of children (or the survival with handicaps such as deafness and so forth) or do you select the risk where 2-3 children may die of allergies but other children and adults in that town won't."

No, it's not an easy decision to make... until you've worked during an epidemic in the US (like the polio epidemic that I lived through in the 1950's) or worked in health care in countries where vaccines are not available. No treatment is 100% effective and 100% safe. Do you prefer to let babies and children die from things like pneumonia and diptheria (30% death rate)... things that we have vaccinations against... instead of vaccinating them?

(and remember, diseases have an incubation period where a person can be spreading germs to the population at large and not appear to be sick)



And finally -- let's tone down the combative tone, okay? We can discuss our views without getting snarky... right?



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd



And finally -- let's tone down the combative tone, okay? We can discuss our views without getting snarky... right?


Where were you when bsl was insulting Australians? Where were you when he told someone to go forth and multiply in Italian?

Noticed you told me specifically to 'be nice' and yet you havent said a thing to bsl???

so its ok for him to insult other people in a personal derogative manner?

and we are expected to accept it?



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
* Before 1970, the number of shots that kids got was much higher than today (I don't think a year went by that my brother and I were not vaccinated for something or another. My dad, as a child, also had lots of vaccinations.)

Where are the huge numbers of autistic people that should have resulted from those vaccines?

Does this include baby vaccinations? I am unsure what vaccines were around back then as some diseases would have been irradicated and new vaccines would have been introduced.
EDIT:

VACCINE AVAILABILITY IN ONTARIO
1970 Live further attenuated measles vaccine was distributed through Medical Officers of Health. The rubella vaccine (live) HPV-77DE5 was also distributed through Medical Officers of Health. Rubella vaccine monovalent - HPV-77DE5 available.
1970 October. Killed measles vaccine was discontinued.
1972 Combined measles - rubella vaccine was distributed to physicians and Medical Officers of Health.
1974 Rubella vaccine HPV-77DE5 was distributed to physicians and Medical Officers of Health.
1975 Combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine distributed to physicians and Medical Officers of Health. Referred to as MMRI - RI = HPV-77DE5.
1977 December 10. Measles-rubella vaccine discontinued.
1980 January. Rubella vaccine RA27/3 monovalent was introduced and replaced the HPV-77DE5.
1980 April 16. MMRII vaccine with RA27/3 component was introduced to replace the MMRI.
1981 Introduction of diploid cell rabies vaccine for all post-exposure treatment (HDCV).
1982 July. Immunization of School Pupils Act introduced.
1983 Hepatitis B vaccine distributed at cost to specific groups at risk. Discontinued in 1985.
1984 Introduction of absorbed vaccine. DPT Polio, Td Polio, Tetanus Polio and Tetanus.

I'm looking for similar pages..

There's no "new disease" being made here. Autism was around for a long time before vaccination and the kids usually died very early.

How does someone die early of autism? There are many other handicaps that effect longevity and health but autistics are physically normal [unless they have multiple handicaps].

No, it's not an easy decision to make... until you've worked during an epidemic in the US (like the polio epidemic that I lived through in the 1950's) or worked in health care in countries where vaccines are not available. No treatment is 100% effective and 100% safe. Do you prefer to let babies and children die from things like pneumonia and diptheria (30% death rate)... things that we have vaccinations against... instead of vaccinating them?

Given thimerosal is being phased out I would now feel much more comfortable giving my kids vaccines.. but will still be very cautious and perhaps delay some unessesary injections [hepititus, flu etc] until their brains are more formed. I would also opt to have single injections rather than three in one as I don't like the idea of that kind of bombardment on the immune system. I completely understand the risks of pandemics etc but I have a family history of autism and similar disorders which may be increased by external factors. I believe there is a possibility that there are some babies who are more at risk to 'aquiring' autism as their systems may be unable to process and filter out higher levels of heavy metals and they leach into the brain while it is at a crucial stage of development. They may very well end up with some form of autism anyway [toxins are in the enviroment] but it may not be as severe.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by riley]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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NJE-

I'm sorry you don't read entire posts and thus haven't seen the 4 or so posts where I hae said that was a sarcastic remark. I would have just ignored your "contributions" to this thread except for one thing. A poster asked me to clarify something I had said, so I did. You then jumped on and said I didn't deserve to clarify myself because I'm a medical student (and which med school did you attend?) and that I could get myself and ATS sued (which is just totally untrue). So really, had you noe posted your vendetta against me, I never would have made the flippant remark.

~MFP



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by bsl4doc
..
Wrong. Mercury poisoning is most often from methyl mercury. Thimerosal breaks down to ethyl mercury. [



This argument, as far as i can tell works against thiomersal, since ethylated compounds may even be more easily absorbed than methylated ones, the link has been given twice already:

www.safeminds.org...

courtesy of KDX

furthermore:


bsl4doc
..

So really, the vaccines are not tainted or anything like that. For 98-99% of the population, they are fine. For those with this genetic mutation, they are not. The same goes for diet coke. Those with phenylalanine deficient pathways (called phenylketonurics), diet coke can be harmful. For the other 99% of the population, it's not.

..


Since when is impaired glutathione production a mandatory life sentence in your personal prison of mind? i can't see the logic, if you're allergic to diet coke, don't drink it, if you do the effects aren't immediately lethal or debilitating and you can choose normal coke - or water - if you know you have that problem.

Wether this is the root cause or not i find it highly irritating that you are apparently regarding a potential 1% (heck even 1 permille would be too much) as acceptable 'collateral damage' in an immunisation effort.. and that from a future MD, not encouraging.

On a final note, there's always been the seafood argument, let's just say that this stuff isn't fully absorbed and that ethyl- doesn't equate methyl-, which actually works against your argument, as shown above.


www.generationrescue.org...
The mercury received in a vaccine is no greater than in a can of tuna. Eating a can of tuna has certainly never caused autism.
This myth has received a lot of publicity because it offers an analogy anyone can understand and makes the mercury-autism connection appear trivial.

We can start by comparing a 200-pound male adult consuming tuna with the infant who receives a single vaccine on their first day of birth (since day-old infants don't eat tuna). On the first day of birth an infant receives the Hep B vaccine with about 25 micrograms of ethlymercury - this does approximate the 30 micrograms of methlymercury in an average can of tuna. Since the average infant weighs about 7 pounds, the weight equivalent number of cans of tuna for an adult would be 28 cans. (The adult male weighs 28x more than the infant.)

If you take those 28 cans of tuna and distill it down to mercury content, you would have 840 micrograms of mercury (30 micrograms per can). Keep in mind that the stomach successfully absorbs and excretes about 90% of any mercury ingested through food, leaving only about 10% of the mercury to be absorbed into the bloodstream. Since the mercury in vaccines is injected directly into the bloodstream where 100% of it can be absorbed by the organs, you would need an additional 252 cans of tuna to get the equivalent amount of mercury into the bloodstream for a total of 280 cans of tuna and 8,400 micrograms of methlymercury.

Also, remember that a developing brain is far more sensitive to toxins than an adult brain. Current estimates say mercury is 5-10x more toxic for a developing brain. We'll use the low end of that range, so multiply the 280 cans of tuna by 5 and you get 1,400 cans of tuna.

So, receiving the Hep B vaccine with Thimerosal on the first day of birth is the equivalent of a 200-pound adult male consuming 1,400 cans of tuna in a single day. One final adjustment: the adult male in the analogy needs to have no capacity to excrete mercury. As Boyd Haley, Ph.D. notes, "it is very well known that infants do not produce significant levels of bile or have adult renal capacity for several months after birth. Bilary transport is the major biochemical route by which mercury is removed from the body, and infants cannot do this very well."

So, a 200-pound male who consumes 1,400 cans of tuna in a single day and has their ability to excrete mercury severely diminished is the same as a day-old infant receiving the Hep B vaccine. Now the analogy is fair.


Of course, i took that link off this thread, so my take is just simply overlooked them. Note that i'm NOT saying 'what i post is The Gospel, bow down' but i'm afraid you'll have to refute these key issues before going ahaead, won't you?



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 03:37 PM
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Excellent comparison Lance, 1400 cans of tuna would be quite an accomplishment in one sitting!


So, a 200-pound male who consumes 1,400 cans of tuna in a single day and has their ability to excrete mercury severely diminished is the same as a day-old infant receiving the Hep B vaccine. Now the analogy is fair.


Byrd- your link on fish did not show anything for comparing.
Quote your best piece of evidence from your link. That might help.

Your statement of Autistic children "just dying early" before 1930 is perhaps one of the strangest things I have seen you say. Kanner diagnosed Autism as an emerging disease in the 1930s.

bsl4doc - Finally, we come full circle with you when you see the research about glutathione defencies. Bsl4doc you now agree that Thimerosal could cause an ethylmercury buildup in this genetic subset of the population. But then fall back on the agruement of protecting 99% of the populace while leaving the other 1% in the dirt.
Not a view that I, and many others share.
The actual figure as you know is 1 in 166 has autism.
But how many have ADHD?
and how many have Asthma?
How many children are really being affected to a lesser degree? probably more than your 1%

So... given your glutathoine "epiphany", how about some research into the deficency in this 1% subset and the medical removal of this built-up ethylmercury from these damaged kids.
They have to admit the damage ethylmercury does first, to do the proper research. That is our stumbling block to better research. Admission of the problem.
But what has the IOM done? "recommended that research be directed in more
promising directions, NOT Thimerosal or ethylmercury."
Outrageous? you bet.
So you now see the frustration and anger parents have regarding this issue.

I noticed that nobody on the pro-vaccine side has even touched the Question of the Year. Is this question too hot to touch maybe?
I guess its not called the Question of the Year for nothing eh?





[edit on 8-2-2006 by MonoIonic_Gold]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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This reference link is only for Riley (heavy meatls and sleep disorders), not for the group discussion on vaccines.

Riley here is the link I located on the effect of sleep disturbances from heavy metals (reguardless of the cause). Paragraphs 7 and 8 have the info.

Heavy Metals and CFS



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