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HAMAS to Form Palestinian Army

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posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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HAMAS political leader, Meshal, says they are ready to form a Palestinian army by consolidating armed faction under its military wing.
 





"We are willing to form an army like every country ... an army to defend our people against aggression," Meshal said after the group's sweeping victory in Palestinian elections

www.haaretz.com...

HAMAS is not changing its tune, it is calling for the destruction of Israel and wants to create the organized means by which to accomplish this.

Even a sleepy-headed dolt can figure out what this means:

"We will not recognize the Israeli occupation but we are realistic and we know things are done gradually ... Being against occupation does not mean I can cancel Israel in moments."


Put that in context with this:
We distinguish the strategic, long term goals from the political phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure.
Faisel Husseini, Al-Arabi, June 24, 2001



[edit on 28-1-2006 by Nerdling]




posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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Out of curiousity, does Palestine even have a military force left? Or was it pretty much wiped out when they were briefly at war with Israel?

I'm talking tanks, helos, ect.. a real military.. not the insurgent type military.


Edit addition:

I'm not even sure if Hamas will win this election. They won the vote, but Hamas is under so much international pressure right now, I'm not sure if they'll take the reigns.

The Fatah stormed the Pakestinian parliment last night, the US is threatening to cut all aid, Israel is refusing to speak to a Hamas led government..



news.yahoo.com...
Big ol' boiling pot ready to flow over. Palestinian coup?

Israel weighs in:


"We will not under any circumstances agree to speak with Hamas," he told Israel's Channel 2 television. "If Hamas chooses a way of terror and violence like before ... it will come under an unprecendented Israeli attack."


US Weighs in:


"That's their decision to make, but we won't be providing help to a government that wants to destroy our ally and friend. I don't see how you can be a partner in peace if you don't renounce violent aims," said Bush.

"They've got to get rid of that arm of their party which is armed and violent, and secondly, they've got to get rid of that part of their platform that says they want to destroy Israel," said the US president.



[edit on 1/28/2006 by QuietSoul]



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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What "Palestine" military force? The military attacks against Israel, to my knowledge, have always been by sovereign nations neighboring her.
The "Palestinians" use weapons and explosives, funded and supplied by those same neighboring nations, to conduct terror campaigns, primarily targeting civilians.
There will be no doubt that these same neighbors will support the HAMAS, especially if the E.U and U.S. stand by their words and not financially support a terrorist-controlled PA.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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If-- just IF-- Hamas would and could establish a real, serious, reputable and non-violent government in Palestine, they are not going to be allowed to anyway. The US and Israel have already made their intentions clear-- Hamas will not even be given an opportunity to do such a thing. It won't matter whether they ever could or would-- they're won't be allowed to.

Would a Palestinian state continue attacking Israel? Maybe. Maybe even probably, but the point is that we're not even going to be allowed to find out. We'll never know what they might've actually done if left to themselves.

And the astoundingly ironic part of all of this is that the US and Israel have already signaled that they will treat a Hamas-led Palestinian government with NOTHING but hostility, yet if the Palestinians respond in kind, they will get all the blame.

I've always been cynical, but every day I have less and less hope, or respect, for the human race. As long as we remain in the control of duplicitous, power-hungry scumbags, and worse yet, continue to actually believe their lies and get caught up by their machinations, we just move closer and closer to our own doom. And we'll deserve it.


A pox on all your houses.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Palestinians never had "regular" army, just paramiltary forces, mostly attacking civilian population. And they will never have one, especially if US, and EU stops the funding (almost 1 billlion $). They will have enough problems with checks for police and to feed the people not to build military. Plus Egypt and Syria had huge armies backed by USSR, but they still never won anything, so I really don't thing Palestine army will achieve something.
In case of REAL war Israelies would defeat them in hours.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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Again, just to make sure that in among all the noise you missed a very important point; HAMAS is a terrorist organization, its charter demands the total destruction of Israel and, as one can read in this above-given link, it has no intention of denouncing violence, no intention of recognizing the fact that Israel is a nation, and, when it feels the time is right, will attempt to "cancel" Israel.

Who is it that refuses to give "peace a chance" as they say?

Also, Israel has said it would not deal with the HAMAS government UNLESS it denounces violence, disarms and recognizes Israeli right to exist. HAMAS is the one who gives no quarter, no chance.

HAMAS is at least telling the truth when it says it will honor only those agreements that serves the "Palestinians" which is just another way of saying it has no bond with its governmental agreements and, therefore, no PA government that truly exists as real nations have.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:29 PM
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Hi everyone. Standing back and trying to take an objective look at it, I don't think that the formation of an Army of Palestine would be a bad thing as this would maybe somehow bring together the various militias and give the newly elected government of Palestine some sort of control. Army life will also hopefully instill some sense of order and discipline and give the new government a chance to really get it together - God knows they need a bit of stability, and so do the Palestinians. As for the "wipe Israel off the face of the map" type rhetoric, which really would not happen - no Air Force etc., I think we may all be surprised. I foresee a long period of drawn-out talks followed by Hamas eventually renouncing violence, and hopefully this will lead to direct dialogue with the Israelis. By the way, wish I could have been a fly on the wall when the free and fair democratic election result was made known to the White House!


To summarise, a Palestinian Army would probably pose less of a threat to Israel than they have faced in the past from the various fragmented groups. give 'em a chance I say!



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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Has this story been taken from ATS? Or is there now no compulsion to follow any of the criteria for posting news stories to ATSNN? One line intro and one sentence news quote. If any one else posted this submission it would be shot down in minutes.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:47 PM
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The PA already has an "army" in that it has a "police" force, larger than that which was allowed, that is supposed to police its own, and at the same time, quell terrorism and other violents acts. When the Israeli soldier was lynched and huing out of the PA police station window we saw how effective they are.
The "Palestinian" people start boot camp at a very young age. They are taught that the Israelis are subhuman creatures, to be despised and killed. Even childrens' television shows aim such hatred and violence-inducing diatribe at the very young. "Summer camps" are designed to teach the young how to use explosive belts and rifles, and teach them to hate the Jew.

The "Palestinians" are not under attack by anyone, they have no need of an Army, and such a entity would do nothing but place more danger in the laps of the Israelis, making the situation totally intolerable and bringing the region closer to war than it has been in a long time. But, then again, that is the intention of HAMAS.

Do not ignore the intentions of both the "Palestinian" leadership as well as the rest of the Arab world. They are serious in their hatred of that tiny little Jewish group of people, and only tolerate them because they know what the consequences will be if they attack right now.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by maldives01
Hi everyone. Standing back and trying to take an objective look at it, I don't think that the formation of an Army of Palestine would be a bad thing as this would maybe somehow bring together the various militias and give the newly elected government of Palestine some sort of control. Army life will also hopefully instill some sense of order and discipline and give the new government a chance to really get it together - God knows they need a bit of stability, and so do the Palestinians.


The Palestinians certainly shouldn't be faulted for desiring a standing army-- that's a basic part of any government, including, to the point, Israel and the US.

And, as you say, a regular army would feasibly bring the various militias together and put them under the command of a central authority-- establishing some manner of discipline and accountability. But it will never happen because, even if it might happen through the actions of a Palestinian government, the Israelis and the US are not going to allow it to happen.



As for the "wipe Israel off the face of the map" type rhetoric, which really would not happen - no Air Force etc., I think we may all be surprised. I foresee a long period of drawn-out talks followed by Hamas eventually renouncing violence, and hopefully this will lead to direct dialogue with the Israelis...
To summarise, a Palestinian Army would probably pose less of a threat to Israel than they have faced in the past from the various fragmented groups. give 'em a chance I say!


Not a chance. If a Hamas-led government was actually interested in some sort of peaceful coexistence with Israel (which they might very well not be and in the past have certainly claimed not to be), Israel and the US will never allow it. International military/industrial strategy requires a permanent war footing, and, for the next few decades at least, the Middle East is going to be used to justify that war footing. The US and Israel have already made it clear that they are going to treat any Hamas-led Palestinian government with nothing but hostility, and they will.

They're already saying, "Whatchoo lookin' at!? You lookin' at me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME!?" and just waiting for Hamas to hit them, so they can say, "See, I told you they couldn't be trusted."

While your scenario of talks leading to some sort of negotiated peace is certainly admirable, and might have even been feasible, it's not going to happen. It's not particularly likely that it would've happened anyway, but just in case, Israel and the US are going to make certain that it won't.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
While your scenario of talks leading to some sort of negotiated peace is certainly admirable, and might have even been feasible, it's not going to happen. It's not particularly likely that it would've happened anyway, but just in case, Israel and the US are going to make certain that it won't.

Can a nation exist without a state?

And as such, and since you did not mention such, allow me to interject a few feasible and common points of view into this, Bob LaoTse, since apparently, you are only looking at this from ONE perspective:

Hamas is recognized my many nations as being a terrorist organization.

Hamas is heavily supported [i.e.: finacially, military supplies, etc] by Iran, who is currently under international pressure regarding its pursuance of nuclear weapons. Furthermore, Hamas, as with Iran, has not recognized the right of the nation of Israel to exist, thus have both continually called for the eradication of Israel from off the face of any map.

It is because Hamas rejects the right of Israel to exist, besides being a US determined terrorist organization, that the US has told Hamas that if you wish to be recognized [process of recognition, as with a state] as a legitimate Palestinian politcal enitity in the eyes of the international community, that Hamas must disavow what they have always avowed.

Hamas was democratically elected into an political position of authority, representing the Palestinian people. As such, Hamas has two choices here, Bob LaoTse, what are they? They are either to pursue their continued 'wipe Israel of the map' creedo, which would be a hinderance and quite possibly counter to what the Palestinian people want or desire, or simply accept the right of Israel to exist, thus working towards the objective and goals of the Palestinian people, which is the establishment of a Palestinian state and peaceful co-existence alongside Israel.


Hamas, in my honest international relations opinion, may likely fracture and create an internal civil war between itself and/or Fatah. Why? Because there will be those of leadership within Hamas that will want to achieve the goals of a Palestinian state on behalf of the Palestinian people, and then there are those of leadership within Hamas that will seek the continued eradication of Israel policy, exemplified by what Meshal is advocating: the establishment or creation of a Palestinian army. You see, the establishment of an national army normally comes after the creation of a state, not before. At any rate, though you see Israel and the US as a hinderance to peace, there are quite a few of us in international studies that see Hamas as being the possible hinderance to any peace settled peace plan.





seekerof

[edit on 28-1-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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When Hamas puts togather an army it will be a very good project for them. It will also be an excellent learning experience. They will learn what Egypy, Jordan, Syria and the rest of the armies learned when they attacked or were attacked by Israel. This time Israel will not be held back from using all their weapons to a very good use. It is time to have a real showdown. Let the winner take all. Might makes right.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Hamas's victory seems to be more of a protest vote against Fatah ineffectiveness and corruption than an endorsement of Hamas itself.

As for internal conflict among Palestinian factions, it's not new, but we'll see it continue to intensify - indeed the Hamas government is going to have little effort to expend on "destroying Israel" (something they are not capable of anyway). They're going to be far too busy fighting other Palestinians.

I am a little less alarmed by this development than others here - now that Hamas has to assume the mantle of power they're going to have to deliver on their campaign promises - and I doubt they can. With foriegn countries withholding aid, and Israel with holding their tax money I dont think they'll be able to do much of anything at all. Which spells political doom for Hamas.

The same anger we saw expressed towards Fatah this round, will be focused on Hamas next time, except probably more so. So while this is a near term loss for peace, in the long term it may prove less awful than we think now. If Hamas is defanged, or forced to adopt a more moderate stance, it's likely to take a lot of wind out of the sails of Islamic extremism in Palestine.

As for their "army", I don't expect to see anything emerge that has any hope against the IDF. Talk is cheap.

[edit on 1/28/06 by xmotex]



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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Intelect over reality. Always a good out of the real situation on the ground. That type of intellect kept us in Vietnam.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Hamas was democratically elected into an political position of authority, representing the Palestinian people. As such, Hamas has two choices here, Bob LaoTse, what are they? They are either to pursue their continued 'wipe Israel of the map' creedo, which would be a hinderance and quite possibly counter to what the Palestinian people want, or simply accept the right of Israel to exist, thus working towards the objective and goals of the Palestinian people, which is the establishment of a Palestinian state and peaceful co-existence alongside Israel.


Absolutely, and it sickens me that they aren't even going to be given that choice.



Hamas, in my honest international relations opinion, will fracture and create an internal civil war between itself and/or Fatah. Why? Because there will be those of leadership within Hamas that will want to achieve the goals of a Palestinian state on behalf of the Palestinian people, and then there are those of leadership within Hamas that will seek the continued eradication of Israel policy...


This is quite likely, but, as I've been trying to stress, essentially moot. The nascent Palestinian state is not even going to be given the chance to fail on their own.

Of course there will be elements in the projected Palestinian government that will advocate continued violence against Israel, and of course there will be elements that will advocate peace and a concentration on actually creating a viable Palestinian state. If Israel and the US actually desired peace, they'd be best-served to ally themselves with the latter elements against the former, but they've already signaled that that's exactly what they're NOT going to do. Instead they're going to paint the entire government, and, by extension, the Palestinian people, with the same broad brush and treat any and all of them as nothing but mortal enemies.

I fully recognize what might happen in a nascent Palestinian government-- my entire point is that Israel and the US have already made it quite clear by their rhetoric that they are not going to even consider ANY possibilities other than overt and continuing hostility, which will ensure just that.



At any rate, though you see Israel and the US as a hinderance to peace, there are quite a few of us in international studies that see Hamas as being the possible hinderance to any peace settled peace plan.


You've missed my point, as I'm sure many would. I wouldn't deny for a second that Hamas could certainly hinder any peace plan, and I honestly would be surprised if they, or at least their more extreme members, didn't do everything they could to do just that. My ENTIRE objection is that they are obviously not even going to be allowed to make that decision themselves. The US and Israel have already decided how they think a Hamas-led government will rule, and they've already announced their intention to treat the entire government, and, by extension, the entire population, based on that preconception. Rather than waiting to see if the people and the more moderate elements can triumph over the extremists and, most astoundingly, rather than actually assisting the people and the more moderate elements in doing just that, Israel and the US are going to treat everyone based on the actions and statements of those extremists.

I've never said, nor have I meant to imply, that a Palestinian government necessarily would recognize Israel and live in peace with her. My entire complaint has been and is that Israel and the US have made it quite clear that the Palestinians aren't to even get that chance.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 05:11 PM
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What is this all about? Land? Money? God?

Or something else?



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 05:22 PM
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I have nothing to add to this thread at all, I was just reading it.
But once again....Seekerof gets my Way above...



You have voted Seekerof for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


-DT



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
Absolutely, and it sickens me that they aren't even going to be given that choice.



yes they will, all israel and the US want is hamas to recognise israel and stop stating a desire its destruction and drop violence.

is that so hard for you to understand? clearly you want peace so bad that you cant read what israel and the US said, and they stated, no talking unless you quit violence and a desire to destroy israel, simple.

hiow can there be peace if they refuse? how are we or israel not givng them a chance? all we want is hamas to act like any normal political party, if they do we will talk to them, if not we wont.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by namehere
...how are we or israel not givng them a chance? all we want is hamas to act like any normal political party, if they do we will talk to them, if not we wont.


Hamas is expected to not only stop promoting violence, but to stop the violence altogether. They're not only to stop sponsoring violence, but to somehow prevent individuals from engaging in violence. What do you think the odds are that they'll be able to do so in light of the complete elimination of foreign aid and diplomatic relations? What are the chances that there will be anything BUT unrest and violence when Palestine, due solely to the PAST rhetoric and PAST actions of their new ruling party, becomes a pariah? Hell-- the unrest has already started, and meanwhile, while the new government has to deal with that, the foreign aid is already scheduled to stop. What happens then? The government is supposed to take time out from its hectic schedule of quelling its own unrest to guarantee that nobody anywhere decides to attack Israel and to jet around and pat world leaders on the hand and assure them that they'll be nice to Israel? How much patting on the hand is necessary, and what happens if some extremist with a suitcase full of C-4 decides to carry on the violence while the new government is busy patting the hands of world leaders? And meanwhile the foreign aid for Palestine is still not coming in, but of course the vastly larger amounts of foreign aid for Israel are rolling in unimpeded, but the Palestinians are not allowed to be resentful, since to do so would simply prove the contention that they're violent savages that can't be trusted to govern themselves anyway.

One never gets anything admirable out of people by expecting the worst and treating them based on that expectation, then demanding that THEY prove that they're worthy of something better than that. All that breeds is resentment.

The approach that you're characterizing as so fair and practical is the same that's exemplified by the old joke office sign, "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

If the US and Israel really wanted a viable Palestinian government and peace in the region they'd work to make it easier for the Palestinians to create just that.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
If the US and Israel really wanted a viable Palestinian government and peace in the region they'd work to make it easier for the Palestinians to create just that.

Just as Hamas, Iran, and Syria are doing, huh?
You might find this a worthwhile read, since of course, you are continually referencing the US in relation to a Israeli-Palestinian peace?
Saudis: U.S. paved way for Hamas victory

And since Hamas [Meshal] has re-affirmed that they will continue to carry out attacks against Israel and Israeli civilains, peace and the interests of the Palestinian people are being met and made easier where exactly, Bob LaoTse?




seekerof

[edit on 28-1-2006 by Seekerof]




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