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POLITICS: Palestinian PM Steps Down- Gives Job to Hamas

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posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
They don't need a coalition, they have a ruling majority - last I checked, they had over 50% of the vote.



I've posted the results the Central Elections Commission announced here, and I also explained possible scenarios which are discussed within the PA at the moment there.

There is no doubt that a new government will be under Hamas' direct and absolute control. Hamas has the absolute majority and cabinet members will need the approval of the parliament for each and any decision they make.




posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Nygdan, Hamas has now stopped for near to a year and they have said they will stick to the cease-fire.


Probably you would like to check your statement?


One thing I can remember at once (- without checking the death lists - )

is the kidnapping and murder of the Israeli Sasson Nuriel

-end of September 2005.

Hamas released CD Rom of kidnapped Israeli Sasson Nuriel before his murder.

I would say this is four month ago - and not "near to one year."



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:33 AM
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In point of fact T.C., Hamas has changed some. Their charter, beliefs, etc. may not have changed, but they are now a political entity in addition to whatever else they are. They may end up being a very short lived political entity if they do not soon recognize Israels right to exist. The Jeruselum Post had an analytical article in it today concerning the dillema Hamas currently finds themselves in--I tend to agree with the major points of that article.

Don't take offense, I realize you were speaking about the goals, etc. of Hamas and not the window dressing they have taken up. However much we may not like it there are only two or three real alternatives that present themselves to my mind just now. The Israeli's can proceed to simply destroy Hamas and any other group that gets in the way. They can more or less ignore Hamas and the Palestinians and get on with whatever it as they feel like doing., Or, they can talk to them to try to resolve as many problems as possible.

Given that world opinion and probable condemnation by most every government on the face of the Earth would follow very quickly on the heels of the Israeli's taking the first path, it's a pretty safe bet they will not do that. That doesn't leave much. Essentially they either ignore them completely (or perhaps even start a civil war between Fatah & Hamas--a war unfortunately that Hamas would eventually win unless outside powers aided Fatah), or, as distasteful as it may be, talk to Hamas. Given the convoluted politics evident in Israel itself, the Israeli's might do more than one of the above.

I really expect Hamas to moderate their stance towards Israel because of the enormous pressure being placed upon them. At the same time though, I expect covert encouragement and support of at least some elements of the PLO to keep the pressure on Hamas. In parallel with this I expect Israel to work hard at trying to get Arab countries to put pressure on Hamas--these efforts will necessarily be focused through the U.S., the E.U., and the U.N. Concurrently, I expect some sort of very large carrot, or carrots, to be held out to the Palestinian people, and Hamas, if they comply with the demands for peace with Israel. (In a nutshell, the contrast between the consequences of continuing down the terrorist path versus complying with world opinion will be made as stark and as widely separated as possible.)

Would it be right to reward the Palestinians for pursuing peace? Probably not, but that is what will happen, much to the chagrin of many other groups around the world. The world is pretty much fed up with the situation over there and if showing a little favoritism to the Palestinians will help end it, then that is what will happen.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by Astronomer68]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 06:11 AM
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Status right now is, the Hamas Party has made it clear that they do not support the right of Israel to exist. So Hamas closed each door - be it within other groups in the PA - or to the EU, U.S. and of course, to Isarel.

IF a newHamas-led government commits to non-violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist ( = changes the Hamas Charter), and accepts current Mideast peace agreements, I see no obstacles for Israel or the international community to talk to them or to provide crucial aid.

Israel is more than patient with the PA. - One example:

The IEC (Israel Electric Corporation) supplies power to the PA both in the Gaza Strip and in Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinian Authority's arrears to the Israel Electric Company recently reached NIS 220 million ($47 million).... - Most Palestinians don't pay their bills and the PA doesn't pay IEC.

The PA also owes (Israeli company) Mekorot for much of its water, (Israeli Company) Bezeq for communications services, some of Israel's cellphone firms, many of the country's hospitals and numerous private Israeli suppliers and businessmen, who have little if any redress. "With any other customer we would have switched off the switch," a senior Electric Company official said.

But the one thing some often forget when they look into the picture is
the inner struggle in the PA.


One example:

There has long been bad blood between Hamas and security forces. (



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by Odium

Riwka, my comments are actually aimed at not Hamas and Fatah, but the Palestinian Government and the Israeli Government.


Oh, really?

That is sad.

I thought you came to this thread to add something in reagrd to the topic.
Just in case you forgot it:

This topic is: Palestinian PM Steps Down- Gives Job to Hamas

Do you have anything to add here?



Wow! Excellent job at bringing the conversation back on target. The topic of this conversation should be the PA and not the Israeli government, and, as the Islamic Resistance Movement is the organization that was given the PA by the voters and, as the former PM stepped down to give it to the Islamic Resistance Movement, your point is on target and taken to heart.
After reading your following posts, Riwka, I'll go and make a cup of coffee as there is nothing else to add.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
They have moved forward, however they are not being met half-way.

They are permited to exist, thats a heck of an olive branch from the yehudis.


Riwka, what is the general sentiment amoung israelis about this? Do the people expect hamas to go mainstream, or do they expect hamas to radicalize the government? Is this seen as supporting or hurting olmert?

More on topic, what do the israelis expect Abbas to do in this situation? I've also heard that the egyptians are acting as mediators between hamas and Abbas, which seems highly unusual.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
More on topic, what do the israelis expect Abbas to do in this situation? I've also heard that the egyptians are acting as mediators between hamas and Abbas, which seems highly unusual.

I would think that the Israelis would hope for some sort of split within the HAMAS so that the radicals and the moderates might be separated thereby diminishing HAMAS's power. Another way would be if there was a re-election and maybe the Palestinians change their mandate but it seems unlikely that either of this will happen. Maybe the situation will degrade into a civil war and that would require UN rule in Palestine.

Anyway about the Egyptian dimension to the fallout between Fatah and the HAMAS considering the history of Egyptian support for the Palestinian movement especially in the line of that followed by HAMAS. I think that the Egyptians are using this mediation to gain back their influence on the Palestinians by influencing the Fatah and HAMAS. If the Egyptians remember their history well they might try the whole UAR thing again by convincing the Fatah and HAMAS to agree to an Egyptian Mandate in Palestine ! That would definitely solve a lot of the immediate problems, like the Palestinian para-military's refusal to be under the HAMAS and the international pressure against Palestine falling into HAMAS's hands. Also they could use this as an excuse to free the HAMAS from any accountability and allow it to carry out its agenda. This may be far fetched but you cant rule out such possibilities with the Palestinians.





[edit on 1-2-2006 by IAF101]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

I've also heard that the egyptians are acting as mediators between Hamas and Abbas, which seems highly unusual.


Yes. Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman said Wednesday, Mahmud Abbas will only ask the Islamist movement Hamas to form the next government if it renounces violence and recognises Israel




Middle East Online: Abbas warns Hamas to recognise Israel

"Hamas should be committed to three things," he [ Omar Suleiman] said after a meeting between Abbas and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Cairo.

"One, to stop the violence. Two, it should become a doctrine for them to be committed to all the agreements signed with Israel. Three, they have to recognise Israel," he said.

"If they don't do it, Abu Mazen (Abbas) will not ask them to form the government. Abu Mazen will (in this case) form the government with other parties," said Suleiman, who attended the meeting and also met Abbas Tuesday.

"If they don't accept to commit themselves to these issues, nobody will deal with them," said Suleiman, who has frequently been the main mediator between Abbas' mainstream Fatah and the radical Hamas in recent years.



A next a meeting is expected to take place in Gaza Friday during which Abbas and Hamas officials were expected to discuss the formation of the government.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia and Qatar pledged Wednesday to transfer $33 million to the Palestinian Authority to ease a severe budget crisis and to pay an estimated 140,000 government workers. Iran also said, they would step in to fill the finance gap.

  • The World Bank had withheld a December payment from a multi-donor reform fund because the Palestinians had not fulfilled reform goals,

  • Israel halted monthly tax payments and

  • the United States and the European Union have also threatened to cut off future funding if Hamas does not reject violence and recognise Israel.

But: A senior Hamas official said the group would not change its policies toward Israel.


In Israel, Hamas victory did not affect Israeli voters. A Haaretz poll showed that the voters remain consistent in their positions and voting intentions:


(source) -[Size=-2]The poll was conducted on Tuesday by Dialog under the supervision of Professor Camil Fuchs. Six hundred fifty people were surveyed.)
  • Kadima ->Olmert: one seat less than in the previous week

  • Labor -> Peretz: no change

  • Likud -> Netanyahu: lost a seat compared to last week; the fear campaign against Hamas that Likud Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu and his advisers hurried to launch did not benefit the party.




[edit on 1-2-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Riwka
Status right now is, the Hamas Party has made it clear that they do not support the right of Israel to exist. So Hamas closed each door - be it within other groups in the PA - or to the EU, U.S. and of course, to Israel.


That does NOT close the door.

Hamas has in the past, and even today has been willing to abide by a ceasefire for a generation so that a final solution can be worked out by the next generation after a period of peace.


Hamas will make a deal
.................
Contrary to the claims of alarmists who see the Hamas election victory as a threat to peace, new opportunities for making peace could now emerge. The peacemaking episodes of the past were based on assumptions absolutely unacceptable to the majority of Palestinians and those who support the justice of their cause. From Oslo to the road map it was always assumed that Israel was the victim that needed to live in peace and security and that the key to this was the end of Palestinian terrorism. The new peace process that Hamas may indeed be willing to be part of should be based on the fact that the Palestinians are the victims and have been victims since Israel was created on their soil. It is not Palestinian terrorism that is the problem, but Israeli aggression.

Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, who was cut to pieces when Israel shot him with an air-to-surface missile, spelled it out long ago. We shall never recognise the theft of our land, he said, but we are willing to negotiate a ceasefire whose duration can be as a long as a generation, and let future generations on both sides decide where to go then. His ceasefire conditions are fully compatible with international law. Israel would have to give back what it occupied in 1967 - then without any Jewish settlements - and release all Palestinian prisoners. For that Hamas would halt its armed struggle and instead pursue peaceful means.

Continued....


The problem is that Israel is not willing to give back what they took in the land grab after the 1967 sneak attack.

Israel is not a Partner For Peace.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by ArchAngel]



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel

[urk=http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1697707,00.html]Hamas will make a deal[/url]
.................


The problem is that Israel is not willing to give back what they took in the land grab after the 1967 sneak attack.


So by quoting a left-wing source you claim to disprove the fact that HAMAS has still not recognised Israel's right to exsist ??
The only sneak attack was by the Al-Fatah when on dec 31 they did a sneak attack across lebanon in order to destroy the water pumping plant that supples water form galilee to Negev. The bombing by Israeli jets was in retalitaion to the imminent heavy armoured coloums racing towards the Israeli border. With only 30 tanks to defend against 3 tank coloums, the odds were against israel.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101

So by quoting a left-wing source you claim to disprove the fact that HAMAS has still not recognised Israel's right to exsist ??


Left-Wing, Right-Wing, or even Chicken-Wing the article is from an Arab paraphrasing Yassin, so it is the words of Hamas not so long ago.

The 1967 Arab-Israeli War Kicked off when Israel bombed the Arab Airforces as they sat on the ground in a surprise dawn raid.

No matter the reasons Israel invaded they were the ones to attack first, and it was a surprise when they did.

Thats a sneak attack.

I stand by my statement even if you don't like the spin.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel

Left-Wing, Right-Wing, or even Chicken-Wing

Choose whatever you like, it does not at all affect the situation in the Middle East.

The things HAMAS has to do are pretty clear.
  • One, to stop the violence

  • Two, it should become a doctrine for them to be committed to all the agreements signed with Israel ( like the Oslo accords that set up the Palestinian Authority and the "road map" peace plan, which calls for the dismantling of armed groups like Hamas.)

  • Three, they have to recognise Israel

Egypt and Jordan - both nations have signed peace treaties with Israel - joined the West in pressuring the militant group Hamas Wednesday, declaring it must recognize Israel and renounce violence if it wants to lead the Palestinians.

But Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel, defends the right to use arms, and considers Oslo null and void. Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahar told Al-Manar TV on Jan. 25: "Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River. (more: NYT)






[edit on 1-2-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Feb, 3 2006 @ 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
Left-Wing, Right-Wing, or even Chicken-Wing the article is from an Arab paraphrasing Yassin, so it is the words of Hamas not so long ago.

So you are saying that a biased report in a biased paper is your version of HAMAS's facts ?? Also the guy who wrote that article is :
Azzam Tamimi is director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought.
and NOT a spokesman or a member of HAMAS. And yet you think that his words are more than just his lopsided view ?

The FACT is that HAMAS has vowed to destroy the state of Israel by pursuing terrorism and violence. By giving them a mandate, the Palestinian people are guilty of aiding and abetting a known terrorist group, making them no better than these terrorists themselves.


Article 13 of the Hamas charter, which states, []“There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad” and says “[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.”

Article 16 lays out a required duty for members of Hamas, saying, “I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill.”

What part of this is unclear to the Palestinians? They know exactly what HAMAS wants and they know exactly what its means are. They are also fully aware of the international opinion about HAMAS.
YET despite all this they have voted HAMAS into power ! Can you still be naive enough to believe that these are peacefull people ??



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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If today we are unable to win the conflict decisively, for reasons known to all, we must not pass on to our sons a disgraceful defeat by recognizing the Israeli enemy's right to exist, where it has no such right.

Mahmoud Al-Zahar


www.discoverthenetwork.org...

The Arabs want the entire area, and will even deny the Jews this one little sliver of land. How sweet, they are. They steal the name "Palestinian" from the Jew and claim it to be their own vast area, when it is only a small area that the Jews can call their own. Yup, these new leaders are going to make the future and interesting time, huh?



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The Arabs want the entire area, and will even deny the Jews this one little sliver of land. How sweet, they are. They steal the name "Palestinian" from the Jew and claim it to be their own vast area, when it is only a small area that the Jews can call their own. Yup, these new leaders are going to make the future and interesting time, huh?

Seems you begrudge these people from even using a moniker. Do you think the best way to combat hatred is to hate? Coz I sure dont



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 01:42 PM
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Gee, Subz, you are at it again, you try and paint anyone who brings to light the truth as either racist or hateful.

They are not "Palestinians", they took that moniker as a way to muddy the waters. You see how it has worked? People actually think they are a separate people from their kin folk in Syria.

I will not allow them a moniker that is not theirs. They could have had another moniker, they could have been Israelis, but they chose to side with the attacking Arabs.

Again, Subz, your tricks at name-calling will not work with me, nor will the attempt to deflect from the truth.

Subz, as far as I can tell, and in my way of thinking, continuing to follow a line of deceit, continuing to spread propaganda and lies and continuing to demand that Israel do what should be done by the Arab world is hate. Let's not hide behind "love" when we feel it is the strategic thing to do. It won't work, and I will not allow that quarter.



[edit on 6-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Gee, Subz, you are at it again, you try and paint anyone who brings to light the truth as either racist or hateful.

They are not "Palestinians", they took that moniker as a way to muddy the waters. You see how it has worked? People actually think they are a separate people from their kin folk in Syria.

I will not allow them a moniker that is not theirs. They could have had another moniker, they could have been Israelis, but they chose to side with the attacking Arabs.

Again, Subz, your tricks at name-calling will not work with me, nor will the attempt to deflect from the truth.

Subz, as far as I can tell, and in my wayu of thinking, continuing to follow a line of deciet, continuing to spread propaganda and lies and continuing to demand that Israel do what should be done by the Arab world is hate. Let's not hide behind "love" when we feel it is the strategic thing to do. It won't work, and I will not allow that quarterr.

Who's name calling? I didnt say you were calling any one names and I didnt call you a name either. If you post something that is hateful then be prepared to come off looking...hateful.

Your contempt for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians is obvious. A simple question can clarify this issue: Do you respect the Palestinian people?

A Palestinian is some one who lives in Palestine, or the area once called Palestine. I cant see how that exclusively applies to Jews, as you claim. You can deny them that moniker as much as you like, it wont change anything.



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 01:56 PM
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What, do you just come around here rigfht before I have to go to work and try and play games simply for fun?

Don't try and play word games, Subz. You know what you inferred about hate.
In case you are slow to remember, go back and reread other threads in which we have both posted. I have stated that the term "Palestinian" was offensive to the Arabs before 1967, they took that word only for political purposes.
They highjacked that word in order to convolute the conversation.
Just as you are trying to do right now.



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 02:12 PM
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Just like Zionists have hi-jacked the term, Anti-Semite.

It's a nice big circle, which far too many of us seem to be trapped in only taking one part of it which suits us and refusing to see the other sides of the story.



posted on Feb, 6 2006 @ 09:13 PM
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Well whatever happens, for good or ill, the Palestinian people have no one to take the blame, or credit, but themselves. It was a free, and by all accounts a fair election. So be it. Israel ain't happy, but what in life is fair. The Palestinian's deserve this chance. Whatever happens in the days and months ahead is on their heads and hands. Here's hoping they work it out.




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