POLITICS: Palestinian PM Steps Down- Gives Job to Hamas

Thomas, you do not make peace with your friend but with your enemy. A peace process, which has existed between any group must have started for one reason. Many of these were due to war - now, when One Nation invades another what is that doing? Destroying another Nation.

Should all of those never have happened? Should World War One have ended with the complete destruction of the Axis Powers? In fact, there are Peace Treaties dating as far back as 1280BC... That is how wars have been resolved, by two factions who tend to hate one another sorting it out - step by step.

Peace is nice, I think most can agree, Odium. The problem is, when one side is wanting the destruction of the other side, there is no room for peace when one comes to the table to demand the other side not exist.

Peace treaties come about when one side has beaten the other side, and there is no other recourse for one side, and nothing to lose because of superiority on the part of the other side.

Originally posted by Odium
Thomas, you do not make peace with your friend but with your enemy. A peace process, which has existed between any group must have started for one reason. Many of these were due to war - now, when One Nation invades another what is that doing? Destroying another Nation.

Should all of those never have happened? Should World War One have ended with the complete destruction of the Axis Powers? In fact, there are Peace Treaties dating as far back as 1280BC... That is how wars have been resolved, by two factions who tend to hate one another sorting it out - step by step.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
If their laws discriminate against non-jews, and it is not racsism, what is it then?
Israel is a Jewish Bigot State?

This last statement is similar to those of the Islamic fanatics who seek to destroy the world aka Al-Qaeda.
Firstly, in Israel all relgions are accepted and tolerated. Their is no discrimination to a persons religion or ethnicity. Also the term "race" doest apply to Jews at all ! How can a black person and a caucasian be from the same "race" ???
Race has never been related to the jews with the exception of the NAZI's !!

Israel encourages Jewish identity and heritage and seeks to be a safe haven for Jews who want to escape Anti-Sematic persecution and live with dignity.
It is this self-identity of the Jewish people that is being criticised by those who rampantly exhibit fanatical and extreemist religious views that are hostile to other religions but cannot stand other religions asserting themselves.

ArchAngel
PLEASE provide a source to where any of those nations forced them to move to Israel.

Here you go :

en.wikipedia.org...
More than 600,000 of the Jews living in Arab countries and territories fled or immigrated to Israel, with another 300,000 seeking refuge in various Western countries, primarily France.
........
The net result was that after over two thousand years of living in Arab controlled countries, the atmosphere was sufficiently anti-Jewish that entire communities of Jews in the hundreds of thousands felt they had no option but to take leave of old homes and move to the uncertainties of the new Jewish state of Israel, in effect becoming "refugees" in everything but name.

Odium
IAF101, I'll make this nice and simple for you.

If you disagree with Israeli and the Israeli Policy, you are not Anti-Jewish. If you disagree with the Zionist Political ideology, that does not make you anti-Jewish.

Thats ironic how you put that. You say being anti-Israel/Zionism is not anti-jewish and go on to say that their are two "types" of anti-Semetism.
Their is only one type, that is the hatered of a people simply for being jews and not for anythign else.
That is what has been exhibited when sympathising with the terrorist activites of the Palestinians. Especially HAMAS.

Comming back to the topic at hand, your preaching is irrelevant here. If you have a problem send a U2U and I may consider reading it. Your "decrees" has no meaning here.

ArchAngel
Israel before 1967 Sneak Attack and today:.........
Israel 'grabbed' land that was not theirs, and still occupy it today.
It was a landgrab.

Your maps are absolutely misleading. The territories that you show on the 1993 map are absolutely wrong and should be diregarded by any who see it.
The real map of Isreal for all to see is here From the BBCNEWS.
MAP
[MAP not shown due to its size ]
In your map the WestBank , Gaza are not displayed at all. They give the impression that these have been taken from the Arabs as well ! This is misleading to say the least and undermines the credibility of your source severly.
In 1967 the Arabs attacked Isreal and Israel defended itself from their attacks and in the process drove them back across the accepted international boundary that defines Israel. After the war ended Isreal has given up all portions that are not part of the Israel boundary recognised by the UN including the Senai, parts of syria,etc.

grover
. I also sympthize with what the average Palestinian has been through as well. Whether you call them hate filled fanatics or long suffering pawns, depends on your point of view I guess, but the average person on the West Bank and Gaza wants what everyone else wants, a home, security and a job and not to be treated as second class and peace. And while this is true, it is also true desperation breeds desperate mesures.

The Average Palestinian is one who is led by the crowd of fanatics and brainwashed from an early age into blaming the jews for all their misfortunes.
The only sympathy he ought to deserve is for the inability to look at his situation objectively and falling prey to fanatic rhetoric.

The Palestinians were offered jobs ,education and homes by the Israelis in an attempt to better their conditions, for they are human after all. The Palestinians who desperately need these facilites refused them and any who took them were ostracised by their own society for going against their fanatical beleifs. Caught between a rock and a hard place the Palestinians are forced if not threatened into following the dictums of the various "powers" that dominate Palestinian life. They have little free choice and this vote also being dictated to them.

Desperation is no excuse for inhuman acts against civilians and any who justify it are just as guilty of these actions because were it not for these sympathetic voices the campaigne of violence would find no support and thus collapse all the more sooner.

ArchAngel
Israel attacked first in a surpise down raid where they bombed the arab airforces as they sat on the ground, yet you say it was not a sneak attack.

This is yet again another misinterpretation of history that is being deliberately carried out to repress the fact that the Arabs were in fact the sole cause for the problems of the Palestinians due to their ceaseless belligerance towards Israel and its jewish populance.
In 1967, the war was started by none other than the Arab League that sort to try its hand at "massacre" one more time. What they failed to gauge was teh level of international support for the Israelis and the international condemnation of the Arabs for their propensity towards hostility.

Hamas and Terrorism - A day in the life…

In the later part of the 1980’s, 1987 to be precise Hamas was formed - The Islamic Resistance Movement. It was formed, and a the present is the largest Palestinian Islamist Movement. The problem is, Hamas isn’t strictly a Terrorist Organisation, it is also involved in numerous social welfare programs. This is why they are so popular.

Move back, to the United Kingdom for example - there are members of the Labour Party who are members on the basis of certain parts of their manifesto and not them all. This is likely the case, with the Hamas. Although they are the more extreme party, they also do Social programs which Fatah didn’t offer. These programs are what got them many votes - not the fact they are set out to destroy Israel. It might seem odd, but again you need to look at in context. If you have no food, no home, you have loyalty to those who give it you and this is what Hamas have done - their leadership, Mahmoud al-Zahar et al are not stupid individuals and they know how to manipulate individuals.

This, level of intelligence [although hard to call it that], can be seen in other areas and not just the fact they have given the people what Fatah didn’t and wouldn’t - in fact, they were able to show the people that the Palestinian Authority were on the “take”. This, further has helped to boost their popularity with the population. They were begin ruled, by a group of people profiting off of their misery.

Now, you have to look at the Historical Precedent of Terrorist Organisation’s, and World over it has shown that when they are brought into the Political process they begin to move away from their extreme methods. Splinter groups, will always emerge and this is what has happened in the two minor attacks that were launched. However, Hamas have primarily agreed to a ceasefire and stuck to it. The next step is to engage them and to begin to give certain things. The Gaza Strip and the Westbank are the first, major ones and eventually shared control of Jerusalem will be the most desired.

Wars themselves, have been started time and time again by groups who desire to wipe out another and who desire to commit horrid actions of genocide. However, look at Europe. Look at our history, of Nation after Nation desiring to destroy one another and eventually these “Old Enemies” made peace. It took time, it was hard work but it did happen however continued invasion and wars, didn’t help it. Israel itself, needs to speak to Hamas - they need to allow meetings, as do the United State’s and the European Union - otherwise the Middle East peace-process, will fall apart and not due to Hamas but rather because we have refused to speak to them. It goes both ways and we need to recognise this just as much as Hamas need to recognise Israel. However, if we try first - if we can show the Palestinian people that the West is trying to help peace than Hamas will have to follow or they will be shown to the people by their own actions.

Originally posted by IAF101

ArchAngel
PLEASE provide a source to where any of those nations forced them to move to Israel.

Here you go :

en.wikipedia.org...
......

I read the link, and it says nothing about anyone forcing Jews to leave.

I stand by my statement.

More importantly, unlike the situation with Israel, Jews were not banned from returning.

ArchAngel
Israel before 1967 Sneak Attack and today:.........
Israel 'grabbed' land that was not theirs, and still occupy it today.
It was a landgrab.

Your maps are absolutely misleading. The territories that you show on the 1993 map are absolutely wrong and should be diregarded by any who see it.
The real map of Isreal for all to see is here From the BBCNEWS.
MAP
[MAP not shown due to its size ]
In your map the WestBank , Gaza are not displayed at all. They give the impression that these have been taken from the Arabs as well ! This is misleading to say the least and undermines the credibility of your source severly.

Israel controls those borders, and Israels military occupies all land within those borders.

If it is not under Israeli control then the Israelies should withdraw their armed forces.

In 1967 the Arabs attacked Isreal and Israel defended itself from their attacks and in the process drove them back across the accepted international boundary that defines Israel. After the war ended Isreal has given up all portions that are not part of the Israel boundary recognised by the UN including the Senai, parts of syria,etc.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

Israel attacked first in the 1967 war when they bombed the Arab airforces as they sat on the ground.

There were many reasons for it, but it still was a sneak attack.

Israel still has not given up territories stolen in that war.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golon, and the Cheeba Farms District were never given to Israel, nor are they included in Israeli recognized borders.

If you think the UN defines the borders as different PLEASE provide a reference.

Arch, you do know that you're being ridiculous now, right?

You claim that because the Jews left Muslim countries in the face of persecution, but left on their own legs, makes the point invalid. However, you believe that the Palestinians were "Forced Out" in 1948.

Sorry bud, dead wrong.

Taken from the official website from the KING OF JORDAN: www.kinghussein.gov.jo...

The violent establishment of the state of Israel led more than 500,000 Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes, with many settling in what became known as the “West Bank” (the west bank of the Jordan River).

FLEE, as in LEFT, as in the same terminology used in the link provided above by IAF.

So if you're saying the Palestinians were FORCED out in '48 you WILL also agree that the Jews were FORCED out of Muslim countries for years.

Who's the bigoted state again?

Maybe I should space this out for you since you have such trouble comprehending it.

Both... sides... have... done... wrong...
Neither... side... is... a... bunch... of... angels...
Stop... warping... history... to... make... one... look... better...

Are we getting somewhere yet?

You really need to stop your attack dog tactics unless you're going to use them on both sides.

Funny thing is if you nailed both sides as relentlessly as you do only one I'd actually have an iota of respect for you. What a shame you choose to only aim for one.

You claim that because the Jews left Muslim countries in the face of persecution, but left on their own legs, makes the point invalid.

NO! That is your interpretation.

I was debunking the claim that Jews were FORCED from their homes in Arab nations.

However, you believe that the Palestinians were "Forced Out" in 1948.

I believe I said that they fled in fear of their lives, and were not allowed to ruturn after the conflict ended.

Who's the bigoted state again?

Maybe I should space this out for you since you have such trouble comprehending it.

Israel is the Bigoted State because no matter the reasons people fled Jews were not denied the right to return to their former Arab Nations[if any even wanted to], but the former Palestinian Arabs were not allowed to return.

In every war there are people that move out of their homes, and thats not ethnic cleansing unless its done by force.

Refusing to allow them to return.....Thats Ethnic Cleansing.....

[edit on 30-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

Good, then I propose that the Persian Jewish community worldwide should be offered to return.

Oh wait... Jews aren't really welcome in Iran. Remember in recent years when shoe salesmen were being tried as Jewish spies simply because they were Jewish? How quickly we forget.

A bigoted state that allows the Waqf near supreme authority. As opposed to the Angelic people who controlled E. Jerusalem before and used the Western Wall as a public urinal.

Whatever.

Claiming one side to be bigoted and the other to be pure is as big a joke as I've ever seen posted.

Claiming one side to be bigoted and the other to be pure is as big a joke as I've ever seen posted.

PLEASE show us all where I ever said the other side was not bigoted, and I want quotes.

Creating a dichotomy from a single side is rather elusive, and you failed at that one.

Were I in a forum filled with people calling for the destruction of Israel I would be defending them, but only up to the Green Line.

I have not seen here one single person of that extreme, but there are many of the opposite extreme.

This forum is strongly Zionist Biased, and if being a Zionist means you support Israel behind the green line in compliance with all international law then I too am a Zionist.

I represent the middle in an area with a far right Zionist tilt.

Above all else I support Equal Rights for all of the CHRISTIANS in Palestine and Israel, and every righteous means leading to that end I may employ.

And if thats Anti-Semitic then I am an Anti-Semite and the word no longer has any meaning.

[edit on 30-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

Oh wait... Jews aren't really welcome in Iran.

Not only are they welcome, they are afforded automatic seat in the Legislature.

Islamic Republic of Iran Constitution
.......
Article 64

There are to be two hundred seventy members of the Islamic Consultative Assembly which, keeping in view the human, political, geographic and other similar factors, may increase by not more than twenty for each ten-year period from the date of the national referendum of the year 1368 of the solar Islamic calendar. The Zoroastrians and Jews will each elect one representative; Assyrian and Chaldean Christians will jointly elect one representative; and Armenian Christians in the north and those in the south of the country will each elect one representative. The limits of the election constituencies and the number of representatives will be deter-mined by law.

Although small, the Jewish community in Iran is represented in the government.

[edit on 30-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

That's amazing!!

You do know Arabs are on the Knesset as well right?

That's cool stuff though... 1 seat out of 270 to the "jews and zoroastrians".

You learn something new every day!

ArchAngel, I really thought I had a short attention span. Here, let me remind you of 1967 again:
I would like to take the time to address one more lie that I have read, and that the 1967 War was a sneak attack. It is insinuated that the Israelis acted out of a land grab. This is absurd when one looks at some very revealing facts.
Arab terrorist attacks were numerous before the ’67 war. In the two years beforehand, there were 76 of them. There were an additional 37 attacks launched in the first quarter of ’67. Syrian attacks from the Golan Heights seem to be not mentioned in the assertion that Israel’s preemptive strike was deceitful. It is also not mentioned that on May 15, Egyptian troops were massing near the Israeli border in the Sinai, and Syrian troops were making ready for war in the Golan Heights. The Arabs ordered the U.N. Emergency Force out of the Sinai and the Voice of the Arabs declared this on 18 May:
“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain anymore to the U.N. about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.”

Now, trying to move forward, if possible, rather than having to recap again and again....


Yes, let us look at Hamas, or the Islamic Resistance Movement. I am very glad that someone brought up the IRM name of Hamas. considering someone earlier in the thread wanted religion removed from the equation.

Here are a couple things, in today's news:

"The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and denounces the peace process" Had to remove the ex tags from this because it was putting the entire post in external source mode for some reason.

What Hamas calls for today:

"Israel must remove the two blue stripes from its national flag,” Zahar said. "The stripes on the flag are symbols of occupation. They signify Israel’s borders stretching from the River Euphrates to the River Nile.”

The source:
www.newsmax.com...

Yup, really sounds like these people are just ALL ABOUT love and harmony, peace and co-existence. Uh-huh.

Interesting words of a mother of a Hamas homicide bomber:
"Jihad is a religious commandment imposed upon us."
Okay, that is in accordance with Qur'anic scriptures, can't argue against it...
"We must instill this in our sons' souls, all the time...
Well, I suppose if it is in accordance with the Book, who can argue?
"What we see every day, massacres, destruction, bombing homes, strengthened in the souls of my sons, especially Muhammed (her dead homicide bomber son) the love of Jihad and martyrdom"
Never mind that the destruction was in retaliation of other attacks, and the destruction was always preceded by warning, so that people could get out of the way...
Allah be praised, I am a Muslim and I believe in Jihad"

Between the words of the mothers of Jihadist bombers, willing to send their sons, daughters and mentally handicapped off to kill men, women and children in coffee shops, pizzarias and market places, and the clear and unyielding words of destruction and unwillingness to "give peace a chance", I don't see what you people want, other than for the Jews to simple die. If they do not do it on their own accord, the Islamic belief states the rocks and bushes will cry out to the Islamic Jihadists that a Jew is hiding behind it, and to come over and kill him.

Well, there is a possibility of peace in the way of thinking for the Islamic Resistance Movement. As one hadith says to do when confronted with the infidel...Invite them to accept Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them...
Okay, but what is I don't buy into their way of believing?
If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them Jisya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands...
Youknow, the Americans went to war against England because of things similar to that; do we have another choice?
If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

After we all convert, agree to pay extortion to be treated as 5th class citizens but allowed to live, or fight and be killed, then there will be peace the Hamas way. That is their belief. That is what they are telling you, but you do not want to hear it. Or, you agree with it and are trying to deceive others from realizing the truth before it is too late.
Sorry, I know the truth.

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Destiny's Road

So, in light if all that's happened, what happens next?

The way I see it, it boils down to Hamas being defanged or all-out war possibly leading to outright expulsion of the Palestinians (whether considered "voluntary" or "involuntary") -- again.

Since an about-face by Hamas would amount to its self-discreditation among the people who voted for it as a political force, war seems most likely.

Despite puzzling insinuations on the part of some members, democratic elections do not ensure peace. The majority of the past century's scores of millions of dead were killed by democracies -- or dictatorships posing as them, an often subjective or academic distinction.

I don't see much reason to expect a sudden change in this pattern in the case of the Palestinian Authority and Israel.

Just more war, as before.

Hitler needed a democracy in order to gain power - legitimately. You are right.

The "Palestinians" were expelled? By whom; not the Israelis. They left Israel by their own volition, at the urging of the Arabs of the neighboring states. They gambled that the rest of the Arab sorl would kill all the Jewish Israelis and then they could have it all to themselves. they lost the bet. the Arab nations who coaxed them into making the bet refused to cover the bet, and would not take them into their countries. AS it was said time and again by the Arabs of back then, there is no such thing as an Arab Palestine, but just part of Syria, then they must be Syrian and the Syrian government should have taken them instaed of using them aas pawns against their Jewish enemy. This is still what should happen.
Or, as Jordan's leadership has claimed through the decades that it is Palestine, how about there? Hmmm, seems there are solutions tothe lousy betting skills of the Arabs who were once "Israeli" but turned against their homes in favor of being with Israel's enemies, and still sides with those who wish her destroyed.

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Yup, democracy in action, "Palestinian" Hamas style. Uh-uh.



[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

More interesting information, not to be found on Fox news that I have seen:

The incoming Hamas government will move quickly to make Islamic sharia "a source" of law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and will overhaul the Palestinian education system to separate boys and girls and introduce a more Islamic curriculum, a senior official in the movement said yesterday.

Spelling out the domestic agenda of Hamas for the first time since the group's stunning victory in a legislative election this week, Sheik Mohammed Abu Teir also said Hamas would not go to foreign donors on bended knee if they withdrew aid to the Palestinian Authority.

The armed struggle against Israel will continue as long as Israel continues its occupation of Palestinian lands, he added.

www.theglobeandmail.com...


[edit on 31-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Does anyone know who will lead the new government? It's fine to say Hamas this and Hamas that, but sometime we have to get down to actual people. I have never really bothered to look into the group that is called Hamas--oh I know their charter and their oath and I know what their behavior has been in the past (both the good and the bad), but I don't know who their actual leader is, or where he lives, etc. Same goes for the rest of the senior leadership. I know a lot of my ignorance is because the Israeli's have a habit of targeting the Hamas leadership whenever they can, so the information isn't exactly bandied about publicly out of fear of becoming a target. It would appear though the situation has now changed sufficiently that the leadership will have to become public--of course that may take an official statement by the Isreali's that they will not target the leadership unless terrorism spikes up again (or some such thing).

That does bring up an interesting point though. Now that Hamas is the legitimate government of Palestine and not just a terrorist group I'm not certain Israeli law will permit their targeting. I know U.S. law does not permit such a thing and further proscribes cooperation with any nation that does permit such a thing. (Kind of a funny way to take out an insurance policy isn't it.) This particular issue has the potential to lead to a real problem between the U.S. and Israel.

When I think about Fatah and it's leadership, I'm not certain Fatah ever really renounced violence (in their hearts). I know they did on paper, but their actions did not always reflect that. I'm sure a lot of the Palestinian attitudes towards Israel are the result of intentional training (or brainwashing, or what have you) that every Palestinian child endures in school and throughout the social structure of the country. It would be surprising if any of them really liked Jewish people.

Thinking back to the 1967 Mid-East War (a war I happened to be pretty deeply involved in), I can state with absolute certainity that Israel launched their preemptive strikes only when it was abundantly clear war was inevitable anyway. Had they not done so, there is about a 50/50 chance they might have either lost that war or else ended up in a protracted conflict leading up to tens of thousands of additional casualties. What they did was act out of self preservation with the full fore-knowledge of the U.S.

The 67 War was not nearly as one-sided as it now seems. The Israeli Air Force was the real hero of that war. Even though they took out better than 80 percent of the Egyptian Air Force with their pre-emptive strikes, they still took horrific losses to the surface to air missiles provided by the Soviets (a missile the U.S. had no counter to at the time). Had the Egyptians used their Air Force the way Israel did, there is no question who would have won that war. As it was, the Israeli's had less than two weeks of supplies left to fight with when the war ended.

Forgive me if I'm rambling again--it happens when you get older.


[edit on 31-1-2006 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Does anyone know who will lead the new government?

That is a very interesting question.

First, some statistic data:

The list of Change and Reform [HAMAS] obtained 74 seats

the Fatah Movement obtained 45 seats

the list of the Martyr Abu Ali Mustapha obtained 3 seats

the Alternative received 2 seats

Independent Palestine received 2 seats

the Third Way received 2 seats

and the Independents list obtained 4 seats.

CEC Announces Final Results of Second PLC Elections

The CEC indicated that the number of voters reached 1,011,992. The total number of registered voters reached 1,332,396. The voting percentage reached 74.64%.

The total number of voters in all West Bank districts reached 582,471, i.e., 73.1%.

The total number of voters in Gaza electoral districts reached 429,521, i.e., 76%.

Whatever government will be formed in the PA - there is no doubt that it will be under Hamas' direct and absolute control. Hamas has the absolute majority and cabinet members will need the approval of the parliament for each and any decision they make.

Several things are possible now:

PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen)was elected last year to a four-year term. But nobody knows how he can function with an opposition government, whose diplomatic and social worldview contradicts his own then.

an other possibility can be that Fatah (Abbas) and certain minority parties will try to form a coalition with Hamas ( Fatah leaders are currently rejecting any such possibility).

Probably Hamas will try to establish a government on its own, comprised of representatives elected in last week's parliamentary elections

Some believe, Hamas will decide to form a cabinet of experts, whose members will not be directly affiliated with the Islamic zealots. This could help them to blur their diplomatic and social ideology and earn international recognition and aid.



[edit on 31-1-2006 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

"I was fed up with the Conservatives and Christian Democrats, so I figured this nice Mr. Hitler could really clean things up"

odium
If their desire is to destroy Israel, locking them out of the peace-process will only help that.

Why should the yehudis even bother to work on the peace process anymore? They worked with the PLO, they were there when it politisiced into Fatah, they got them to more or less settle for their own independant state in the future, and then the palestinian people said "NO we want all of old Palestine, we don't want peace with our evil enemy". So why should Isreal even consider working for 'peace'?

Their efforts now should consist of

1. Completeing and fortifying the wall
   
2. Dissolving the palestinian 'government'
   
3. Assasinating anyone that is associated with Hamas
   
4. Closing the border of the territories
   
5. Bombing any meeting of terrorist/liberation groups

Because thats what you do when you are at war. This pretense of there being two states, this facade of there being a workable peace process, this joke of a situation, its over now. The doves in Isreal ain't getting nowhere anymore. Every single move that they've made has been a hand-wringing hair pulling event for them, and none of it has gotten them anything. Any security and peace they have is from their wall.

Thomas, you do not make peace with your friend but with your enemy.

What? Where'd you learn that? You kill your enemy, you make peace with him if he stands a good chance of killing you.

Riwka
Fatah leaders are currently rejecting any such possibility

From what I understand, fatah members are interested in forming a coalition and radicalizing no?

Whats the situation with the electors who are in Isreali jails? Are they going to have regents speak for them?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
ArchAngel, I really thought I had a short attention span. Here, let me remind you of 1967 again:
I would like to take the time to address one more lie that I have read, and that the 1967 War was a sneak attack. It is insinuated that the Israelis acted out of a land grab. This is absurd when one looks at some very revealing facts.
Arab terrorist attacks were numerous before the ’67 war. In the two years beforehand, there were 76 of them. There were an additional 37 attacks launched in the first quarter of ’67. Syrian attacks from the Golan Heights seem to be not mentioned in the assertion that Israel’s preemptive strike was deceitful. It is also not mentioned that on May 15, Egyptian troops were massing near the Israeli border in the Sinai, and Syrian troops were making ready for war in the Golan Heights. The Arabs ordered the U.N. Emergency Force out of the Sinai and the Voice of the Arabs declared this on 18 May:
“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain anymore to the U.N. about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.”

The only thing you reminded me of was your ignorance, and denialism.

Did Israel stand up and say 'Hey guys, we're attacking now' When they bombed the Arab Airforces on the ground?

No, they did not.

The 1967 war began with an Israeli sneak attack no matter how you try to spin it.

Land Grab?

Land

Grab

Did Israel grab land in the 1967 war?

Even today, two generations later, Israel is occupying land that was not ever given to them, and was not within their borders at that time.

Israel 'grabbed' land in the 1967 war making it a land grab.

The Israeli 1967 sneak attack, and land grab was not only a violation of international law, it was a violation of the very National, Civil, and Human rights of the Palestinian people.

I really, really don't understand how a seemingly rational person can say the things you did, and believe it.

It absolutely flys in the face of reality.

What you need is a long stint with the shoe on the other foot.