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POLITICS: Palestinian PM Steps Down- Gives Job to Hamas

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posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 01:56 PM
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Grover, as Palestine was not invaded, as those "Palestinians" left their homes because they wantred to see their Jewish neighbors dead, killed by the invading Arabs who promised the "Palestinians" that they'd be able to have everything if they get out of the way, I'd say you are a bit wrong.

As Israel tried to get them to stay, considering they'd be part of a secular nation that would have given them a MUCH better chance than their Arab "brothers", and since they thumbed their noses at that, I'd say you are entirely wrong. As the rst of the Arab world uses the "Palestinian" problem as a tool, and is not in the least bit concerned about the plight of the people, I'd say your hatred is misplaced. As you were earlier wanting to leave silly religion behind, I must have to assume you meant every silly religion but Islam, right? Otherwise, your claims are not congruent.

HAMAS will lead thepeople to more pain and suffering, and as the people voted them in, knowing what they intend to do, the future is squarely on their shoulders.




posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by grover
I couldn't agree more...I don't approve of the violence but desperate people do desperate things and to quote the Roman playwrite Terence "I am a man, nothing human is alien to me." There will be no peace in Palestine until there is justice for the Palestinians. America has certianly earned their hostility by blindly backing Isreal and refusing to seriously consider the injustice of it all. Both ancient claims are illrevelant (besides the Palestianians are decendants of Beduin tribemen who settled the area, not Philistines) what is important are the flesh and blood claims that exist now. Be it truth or myth is inconsiquential, no jurorist worth their salt would pass judgement a such claim based on the Bible. They would rightfully ask instead what are the facts of the claim now? And the fact are, no matter the dogmatism used to justify them, that the Jews were given Palestine by Lord Balfour and the English (remember the Balfour declaration?) without regard to the people that had been living there and dispite the UN mandated lines of demarcation, the Isrealis seized even more land and evicted, often brutally its residents creating massive refugee camps that still exist to this day. The other nations in the area rightfully considered this an invasion and struck back and so on and so forth. So it continues, the Palestinians refuse to resettle in other lands demanding theirs back instead. Dispite the likelyhood of this happening...would any of you act different if you were in their place? I doubt it. I do not support the violence but at least I am smart enough to understand its roots, and compassionate enough to understand the angst behind it. In the long run Isreal is doomed, Judgement day or not, in 50 years the Palestinians will outbreed the Isrealis into illrevalance and the area will become a mixed state.


It's their problem. There was peace in Palestine until they started their terrorist attacks especially in 80ties (intifada), although they were ocupied by Israel for the whole time. They would already have their free state, but the problem is they don't want just free Palestine they want Isreal destroyed . Concernig the Palestinian refugees - there were almost that much Isreali refugees displaced from other Arab nations so it's one-one I think.

And there is nothing like "Palestinian nation", there never was something like Palestine (unlike Jewish state)those people are simply Arabs (Egyptians aand Jordanians). The "Palestinian nation" was created by neighbouring Arab states just to make Israelies look like oppressors (because noone would care about borders change after 6day war, but ocupation of "sovereign" nation is something different, you know).

And who cares if Palestians outbreed Israelies? Most of them don't live in Israel anyway, so they can breed so much as they want, it will only create overpopulation in Palestine.

And who knows if they will even have a chance for overpopulating Israel? It is now also possible than Israel simply declares war on Palestine/Hamas govt after first terrorist strike made by Hamas. And they will have every right to do it, because now Hamas is not some underground terrorist organization but they have goverment responsibilty.
And I am talking about real war, not something like todays child plays, it will look more like in 67 or 73. But Palestine is not Egypt, they have no chance to even put a decent fight when Israelies really go angry.

So maybe the 48 will be repeated and the Palestinians form Gaza and West Bank will soon join their brothers and sisters in refugee camps and Jews will colonize both Gaza and west Bank. And for democratically voting murderers and terrorists into their govt, they would surely deserve such fate.


[edit on 26-1-2006 by longbow]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Grover, as Palestine was not invaded, as those "Palestinians" left their homes because they wantred to see their Jewish neighbors dead, killed by the invading Arabs who promised the "Palestinians" that they'd be able to have everything if they get out of the way, I'd say you are a bit wrong.

As Israel tried to get them to stay, considering they'd be part of a secular nation that would have given them a MUCH better chance than their Arab "brothers", and since they thumbed their noses at that, I'd say you are entirely wrong. As the rst of the Arab world uses the "Palestinian" problem as a tool, and is not in the least bit concerned about the plight of the people, I'd say your hatred is misplaced. As you were earlier wanting to leave silly religion behind, I must have to assume you meant every silly religion but Islam, right? Otherwise, your claims are not congruent.

HAMAS will lead thepeople to more pain and suffering, and as the people voted them in, knowing what they intend to do, the future is squarely on their shoulders.



I expressed no hatred and said nothing about a silly religion stop putting words in my mouth I know darned good and well what I wrote.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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You have voted grover for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Grover, word of advice if I may: ignore the flame bait, its not worth your time or effort


I commend those who can see that both sides of this problem have blood on their hands.

Edit: HarlemHottie, to quote some one you write

[quote][i]Originally posted by whoever[i]
main body of quoted text[/quote]

*Just remember to replace the [] with []

[edit on 26/1/06 by subz]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:32 PM
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I am amazed at the ignorance (or refusal to look at) of history in some of these posts. Even a novel glorifying the creation of Isreal has acounts of atrocities committed by, not just the arabs Isrealis as well. For an excellent primer on the whole situation try Karen Armstrong's book "Holy War" in which she attempts nothing less than to tell the story from both Arab, Jewish and Christian prepectives. An example of the type of tactics that were used, Izak Rabin's group attacked a british convoy, killed all the people in it and then wired their bodies with explosives and set them off when their fellow british soldiers came for the bodies. This is well documented. Whole villages were attacked and their inhabitants were either forced out or killed, not by the arabs but by the Isrealis in their grab for more land after the British pulled out. It goes on and on...there are no innocents in this conflict and never were...fanatism runs amok.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by subz

You have voted grover for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Grover, word of advice if I may: ignore the flame bait, its not worth your time or effort


I commend those who can see that both sides of this problem have blood on their hands.


Thank you Subz. I apperciate that.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by grover
I expressed no hatred and said nothing about a silly religion stop putting words in my mouth I know darned good and well what I wrote.


Actually you did say no jurist worth anything would pay attention to what's said in some bible didn't you?

I'll stay out of this as it's clear no one will win. Hey can I get a WATS vote for disagreeing with an admin too?

By the way, maybe some people should attempt to read the charter of Hamas before endeavoring to make the rest of us laugh by calling them a social service agency. Try google, you'll find the charter posted.

(I'd post a link to it myself but mine will be called propoganda. Find it yourself)



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:50 PM
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..."no jurorist worth their salt would pass judgement a such claim based on the Bible. They would rightfully ask instead what are the facts of the claim now?"


That is what I said and it was not disrespecting the Bible or any religion just a simple statement of fact...if the Arab/Isreali conflict were brought before a judge they would want to know the nuts and bolts of the case, not the religious, mythic or spiritual. And they would be correct in that.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by grover
I am amazed at the ignorance (or refusal to look at) of history in some of these posts. Even a novel glorifying the creation of Isreal has acounts of atrocities committed by, not just the arabs Isrealis as well. For an excellent primer on the whole situation try Karen Armstrong's book "Holy War" in which she attempts nothing less than to tell the story from both Arab, Jewish and Christian prepectives. An example of the type of tactics that were used, Izak Rabin's group attacked a british convoy, killed all the people in it and then wired their bodies with explosives and set them off when their fellow british soldiers came for the bodies. This is well documented. Whole villages were attacked and their inhabitants were either forced out or killed, not by the arabs but by the Isrealis in their grab for more land after the British pulled out. It goes on and on...there are no innocents in this conflict and never were...fanatism runs amok.


Actually, I don't care about Palestinians using terrorist methods. They have right to do it, it's their problem. But what pisses me off is their whining, when Israelies are dancing on their nuts as payback (oh look how bad they are, this and that is against Geneva convention
) The point is - fine they can make suicide bombing so often the want but then they must be ready to carry consequences - no independent nation, house demolitions, targeted killings etc.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by longbow]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by grover
..."no jurorist worth their salt would pass judgement a such claim based on the Bible. They would rightfully ask instead what are the facts of the claim now?"


That is what I said and it was not disrespecting the Bible or any religion just a simple statement of fact...if the Arab/Isreali conflict were brought before a judge they would want to know the nuts and bolts of the case, not the religious, mythic or spiritual. And they would be correct in that.


Grover, I'm not disagreeing with you at all on that point. Quite the contrary. My point was to demonstrate that as TC said, you did imply that religion should be left behind in this.

Sorry if you misunderstood.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Djarums
I'll stay out of this as it's clear no one will win. Hey can I get a WATS vote for disagreeing with an admin too?

Read my previous comment.


Originally posted by Djarums
By the way, maybe some people should attempt to read the charter of Hamas before endeavoring to make the rest of us laugh by calling them a social service agency. Try google, you'll find the charter posted.

Yes you should try reading it. It doesnt call for the destruction of Israel, it calls for the creation of a Palestinian state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. That includes lands appropriated by Israel but does not include the words "destruction of Israel".

Also you would do yourself a service to research Hamas's track record in providing basic services to Palestinians via its inclusion in local government. Facts speak louder than mere rhetoric any day.


Originally posted by Djarums
(I'd post a link to it myself but mine will be called propoganda. Find it yourself)

And when what we find is different from your's, your recourse is what exactly?



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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it is well known that Hamas does indeed have a social services componant of it...whether it is done out of genunine charity or as a ploy to garner support is really moot, it is that component as much as their opposition to Isreal that has brought them such wide support.

Religion should be left out of all attempts to broker any form of peace there, or as a basis for claims to the area. Why? Because using religion in this dispute is not only a travesty to the various religions themselves but a sure fired way to stoke the fires themselves. Using GOD on my side, has never worked and more often than not dragged the name of GOD through the mud instead.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by subz
And when what we find is different from your's, your recourse is what exactly?



There are multiple versions of it? News to me.

I'm just smart enough not to post an online version of the hamas charter and have someone say "you posted it from a biased site" etc.

What about this gem?

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors


That's talking about community service and providing, right?

And this gem?

For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.


It's all about peace isn't it?

And this part?


The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).


I'm not saying either side is angelic, but come on... portraying Hamas as a group of do-gooder meals on wheels glee club? Give me a break.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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simple, if they want to support terrorists they should be treated as such...



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
the way Hamas terrorists are classified in the WOT. Will the fall under the Geneva Accords?

If they wear uniforms and have a command structure then they are soliders, ir-respective if they are soldiers commiting acts of terrorism, or even soldiers directing un-uniformed terrorists. As far as I understand it, its basically about having a recognizable military uniform and a command of officers. Hamas doesn't do this, outside of parades. They send agents into civilian centers dressed as civilians, to kill civilians, so, so far at least, they're not soldiers and don't get the protection that soldiers get.

yetichi
hamas is just a bunch of freedom fighters. good for them in winning the election

I agree, good for them. They have the backing of their people, and now can march off into the utter destruction of their nation with pride.


grover
You would be fighting mad and waging a gurrilla war

You mean, in going to war with the quasi-state of palestine? So what? The palests are already waging a guerilla war, at least now Israel will be able to act as if there is an open war and not just 'drive in' to Palestine for punitive actions.


and this would not be so if palestine had not been invaded, and its people forced out into refugee camps and denied any recourse

The palestinians had no right to claim that they were "invaded" when israel was made, Palestine didn't belong to the palestinians, it belonged to Britian, with the approving stamp of the united nations of the world itself. The only time palestine was invaded was when the arabs, after the formation of israel, attacked it, and then, stupidly, lost. And then, even more stupidly, repeated that process.


djohnsto77
The land belongs to Israel [...] just ask God

I don't think he can provide a lease.

Welcome to the end of times!

The end of the world in christian eschatology is preced by a period of universal peace no? As long as the palestinians and yehudis are killing each other, then everything is ok.
So things should be ok for another millenium or so!


grover
There will be no peace in Palestine until there is justice for the Palestinians

bah, who wants peace there anyway? Once the yehudis complete their wall, it won't matter if the palests are still angry with them. There'll be violence, but it will be yehudis rampaging through their occupied territory and palestinians dying within sight of the wall. It doesn't matter if there is peace in the west bank or gaza.

In the long run Isreal is doomed, Judgement day or not, in 50 years the Palestinians will outbreed the Isrealis into illrevalance and the area will become a mixed state.

Not likely, especially if the palestinians in the occupied territories raise enough cain that the yehudis can just kick out all arabs in their state.

Whole villages were attacked and their inhabitants were either forced out or killed, not by the arabs but by the Isrealis

And there will probably be even more of that as the yehudis continue to fight against the palestinians. Lets face it, the palestinians have no army, no resources, and no international backers that can give them either. The yehudis have the least to loose in a situation of "eternal strife and war" between the two of them, so what do they care right? As for the rest of the world, the west ain't going to help out as long as hamas is in power, and the only thing that can really help the palestinians is if the other arabs do something about it. Of course, the last couple of times they tried that, they got trounced, and now isreal has nukes and the US occupies iraq and probably iran before the year is out.

Everyone is talking about the bible, but they're forgetting the most relevant passage. Daniel 5:5, iow, the handwritting is on the wall with respect to the "future" of the palestinians: permanent refugees in their former territory. Until no one bothers to call themselves 'palestinian' anymore.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 05:40 PM
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well guess who has a hamas seat, the woman who sent her son to bomb tel aviv and made that video...just saw this...



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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There is an old saying.

"You do not make peace with your friend, you make peace with your enemy."

So far, the Palestinian People do not seem to beleave the former Political Process has been working for them and due to this they have voted a more "hard-line" group into Goverment.

Maybe, we should take note of these feelings and allow people to see that "Democracy won't give you all you desire". Especailly now people seem to think voting and the democratic process, will remove terrorism and hopefully our Government's and the Israeli' Goverment can take note and listen before things get worse.

Edit:

Just to point one thing out, Hamas has been setting up schools, feeding children and so on and so fourth through the money they have gained. They have been giving the people what the Goverment could not and that is a major reason as to why they got voted in.

[edit on 26/1/2006 by Odium]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 06:46 PM
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Does Bush even read what he talks about first?
This has got to be one of the most blatent loads of BS to ever come out of his mouth. Does he not know what 'hypocracy' means?



In Washington, Bush said Hamas's victory was a sign that Palestinians were unhappy with the status quo and showed democracy at work, which was positive for the Middle East.

But he stuck firmly to the US view of Hamas as a terrorist group.
It has carried out nearly 60 suicide bombings in Israel since the latest uprising began over five years ago.

"I don't see how you can be a partner in peace if you advocate the destruction of a country as part of your platform," Bush told a news conference.

Uhhh Bush, where they hell have you been for the last 5 years? That's pretty much US policy your touting there

"You can't be a partner in peace if ... your party has got an armed wing."

news.ninemsn.com.au...


Another piece in the puzzle is placed.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by grover
And the fact are, no matter the dogmatism used to justify them, that the Jews were given Palestine by Lord Balfour and the English (remember the Balfour declaration?) without regard to the people that had been living there and dispite the UN mandated lines of demarcation, the Isrealis seized even more land and evicted, often brutally its residents creating massive refugee camps that still exist to this day.


Thumbs up to your post, but just a little clarification.

The British conquered the Ottoman Empire, occupied for decades, and gave most of Palestine to the Jews because Lord Rothschilds asked.

The Queen, and British government submitted to the Jewish Zionist aspirations.

Thats a lot of power, huh?


The Balfour Declaration

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.


Since he owned the Bank of England what choice did they have???



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
Since he owned the Bank of England what choice did they have???


Well it was only a matter of time till someone said something like that.

Can we go back to the topic of the Palestinian elections yet or do we have to engage in the obligatory "zionists own the world!" debate again?



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