Modular Rifle Caseless.

I was just checking out my new avatar, when I notice the rifle the man was holding and I seen it somewhere before but I forgot. I didnt know what the heck it was. Not to mention how different it looked. Then I remember that since it was based on the game, I expect that the game creators would help identify it. Yep, I manage to find out that it was called the Modular Rifle Caseless. Also the suppose specs for it.

Specs-
900 rounds per min.
Capable of carrying 45 caseless rounds in its clip.
Plastic outer shell
6.8 mm round
Capable of firing the 40 mm grenade launcher.

Of course at first when I saw the rifle on my avatar and think it was not real, I realize that the Ghost Recon is based on real equipment. I try to search more info on the weapon and to see who was developing this rifle. I hit jackpot. After all the game designers are working with the U.S. Army to make it as realistic as possible.

www.cryeassociates.com...




[edit on 25-1-2006 by deltaboy]

DB,

>>
900 rounds per min.
>>

Which might mean something if it was bipod mounted and belt fed.

>>
Capable of carrying 45 caseless rounds in its clip.
>>

I would expect more given the length of the gun (bullpups are crafted to be short) but there is no detail to indicate how the bulked up stock feeds the clip. Is that a rotary stripper/feed/breach mechanism on the back? If so, what's the ejection port doing so far forward? How does one keep hot brass from biting your cheek?

>>
Plastic outer shell
>>

Is it a certified 'wooden clip' preload out of the factory or can you hand-mash magazines in the back of a bouncing truck, in the dark, at 30`? What is the case:bullet length fraction or is it telescoped too? If it's CT, does the plastic seat and seal well? Does it stick when the gun get's hot?

>>
6.8 mm round
>>

How many grains? How many fps out the muzzle? How much residual energy 100-200-300m downrange (you shouldn't be shooting personal weapons farther than this).

What is the recoil force? It looks like the front of the gun may have some kind of recoil compensator in it's foregrip but then again, given the excessively complicated 'thumb hole' cutout, it could just be decorative.

>>
Capable of firing the 40 mm grenade launcher.
>>

Whoopie. The number of times you can (preemptively, safely) fire a 40mm indoors or in general FIBUA=collaterals saturated conditions in general is on the other of 1 in a 1,000 engagements. OTOH, for those instances where the company sniper is elsewhere and you have no smoke or frag RT to close the distance on that third floor window shooter YOU CAN SEE, a 20-25mm weapon (i.e 10 gauge shotgun) can still fill the room he's standing in with plenty of stinging bees. Preferrably more than once.

The question then becomes whether you want to have both on one gun and for me, the answer is typically going to be _no_.

A rifleman has one job. Point fires in his sector with precision and high rate of engagement and target sorting.

A SAW/CAWS/Grenade man has another. Suppressing an AREA of potential threats and keeping the 'long view' about who is where and what their vulnerability is to your fires as well as the enemy. His job is often to decide to put a round into a DARK window. Because the squad is fully strung out in-bound and now is the time that someone would get maximum kills if they are there at all.

Switching jobs means switching mindsets and it's just not worth the carry weight, not least if you have to reload it like an M203 (though I notice a suspiciously narrow looking clip in one of the LINK photos).

A decent mini should be able to do more than what existing systems do, faster. That can only mean an internal magazine and 20-25 rounds with smart fuzing, able to saturate every window in a house with buck or the room beyond with explosive fragments. As quick as you can pull the trigger.

If you get to thinking deepXwide that way, with a rifle, sure enough, as soon as you 'bend over' to shuck that tube and load a new round 'because that's what you've been doing' (instead of paying attention to your front) bad-habit wise, someone will pop up out of the weeds 20 yards in front of your exposed position and 'mistake you for a rifleman'.

Open field, things are different. But there I'm more concerned with an anti-mech threat and my rates of march chasing down the local hill billies.

>>
Of course at first when I saw the rifle on my avatar and think it was not real, I realize that the Ghost Recon is based on real equipment. I try to search more info on the weapon and to see who was developing this rifle. I hit jackpot. After all the game designers are working with the U.S. Army to make it as realistic as possible.
>>

It ain't bad. But it's still a heckuva carrying case from the pistol grip aft. And 45rds is just too little an improvement over today's guns to be worth having to take the gun offline while you monkey about with whatever is in the buttstock. In many conditions this is going to be akin to "Here I am, empty and waving at you!".

I am also _Flat Out_ against having that much (sight package) bulk and weight ahead of the receiver group.

Eye relief be damned, you're blocking half the bloody target area at close range which means you can't switch from the optics to a 'battle sight' muzzle indexing without going to some kind of SWAT droop on the weapon as a whole which I consider ludicrous on a trained threat shooter with autofire and ambush conditions on his side.

You try and go through a door at high port or low cross angles and 'see something move' and you WILL strike the door frame bringing the weapon up and around. And there goes your muscle memory reaction curve as you instinctively look at what you collided with rather than deeper into the room.

Alternatively, if you're a girl (short arms) and/or tired and you will feel every ounce sagging the muzzle down.

While, if you go full auto, even a superb compensator is not going to keep the sight picture steady.

To me, this isn't GR so much as a 'Halo Gun', which is to say that the volumetrics and functional mechanics of the weapon just aren't well enough explained to be convincing within it's given moldline, let alone 'real', ballistically, for how I would size a 6.8mm round enclosure up to that port.


KPl.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by ch1466]

Don't expect me to answer those questions when I myself am not familiar with this weapon as well. I just got those specs from the creators of the game. They don't explain how the rifle works. Its possible that the clip is based on the P90 method. But I don't have the full view of the rifle on all angles. Not to mention that the ejection port is far forward which is based on the method that is used on the FN2000 Belgium rifle that can fire and eject the case far forward of the rifle which avoids hitting the shooter's face. But this rifle is still in concept. We don't have much info to conclude anything yet.

it's caseless, no need to worry about hot brass, the ejection port is there to empty a round from the chamber

45 rounds is too small and 900 is too high, I agree, high RPM isn't really too much of a advantage, look at the Scar, special forces requested it be lower to about 600 from a higher rate that the original prototypes had. more control short burst is better than spraying it all out before you can re-adjust ur aim after the first shot (sort of like pre-mature.......so to speak, getting all ur ammo out before you can really USE it)

besides from my understanding this is just a physical concept of a future weapon (not very attractive either, at least to me) just like that four barrel laser crap they show with the 2020 stealth suit, just a physical mock up, no working parts at all, just something futuristic to look at.

Originally posted by Oblivions void
it's caseless, no need to worry about hot brass, the ejection port is there to empty a round from the chamber

Good point, stupid of me to forget that,
I was looking at the pics to see where the ejection port was at.

I was trying answer some of ch1466's questions.


[edit on 26-1-2006 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by ch1466
>>
6.8 mm round
>>

How many grains? How many fps out the muzzle? How much residual energy 100-200-300m downrange (you shouldn't be shooting personal weapons farther than this).

Most likely its fires something like the 6.8x43mm SPC round. 115-gr 2,800 FPS at muzzle

It vastly outperformed the 5.56 NATO and the Russian 7.62x39. It was conceived by a U.S. Special Operations soldier in a quest to improve the terminal ballistics of the M4 Carbine .


www.rifleshootermag.com...

[edit on 26-1-2006 by ShadowXIX]

How long before the barrel gets clogged with residue from firing?

I remember discussing the pros and cons of caseless rounds many years ago with an armory sarge. We both agreed on the point that unless there is a clean propellent charge, caseless assault weapons are impractical.

Have there been any improvements I don't know about (haven't thought about caseless in a while) in explosives and material which mean the breach won't be made rubbish of in short time?

ch1466, excellent points made about underslung grenade launchers. Too many people playing counter strike and whatever to fully appreciate what a grenade can do at short range.

Its possible they are basing on the G11 rotating breech chamber system. Of course thats just my theory so far as to one of ch's questions. Or again maybe based on the method used by the P90. Don't know yet.

www.securityarms.com...

The Voere VEC 91 rifle that fires caseless rounds. Didnt know they have hunting rifles that fire such rounds.

Also there is the Austrian manufacture caseless rounds for this weapon.


www.vpc.org...

Voere of Austria reportedly will soon begin exporting to the United States the VEC-91 (Voere Electronic Caseless) rifle using the Usel Caseless Cartridge (UCC). Unlike standard ammunition, caseless ammo lacks a metal shell casing. The UCC leaves no tell-tale casing and consists of a projectile, a solid propellant that functions as the cartridge body, and a primer. Unlike standard firearms, the Voere rifle uses an electrical charge to fire the ammunition. (A previously developed and as yet unmarketed prototype caseless rifle--the Heckler & Koch G-11--uses a standard firing mechanism). Although initial costs of the new technology are reportedly high--$2,200 for the rifle and two dollars per round for the ammunition--it is predicted that increased demand would bring caseless ammo's price in line with, or lower than, standard ammunition. The rifle and ammunition were on display at the manufacturers show that accompanied the National Rifle Association's April 1993 annual meeting in Nashville, TN.

Besides fouling one of the biggest and main issues against caseless ammo was that the brittleness of the original casings for the G11 (HK caseless project from 80s). These things with chip and brittles off easily, the mags would have had to be factory loaded and they even had problems there with the brittleness. This I think has been improved on a lot but it’s still not perfect. They need to come up with something that can be hard and take a pounding on the outside and still burn cleanly and efficiently. Caseless telescoped ammunition of this type would be next great foreseeable evolution in small firearms short of something very dramatic and un-expected (lasers, gauss/rail guns). They need something that can be re-loaded out in the field, factory filled mags are good in theory but when your out there in the thick of it and not sure of ur next re-supply every last round counts.

As far as firing mechanism, last I heard as I said before it’s a prototype, just a physical mock-up of what they envision. All that there is behind this is thoughts and speculation at this point. It’s like the first OICW mock ups, where neither the KE or HE unit were functional, just physical mock up of the size and general ergonomic of what they where envisioning. although I must say, the size of this (they had it next to an MP5A2) isn't really very helpfull as a main battle-riffle besides urban/CQB or special ops use, haven't we've learn this with the m4? even with bullpup and all that it's still not a very fucntionable. and for somethign of this size, if they really want to had an underslung weapon they would be better off with a shotgun type weapon, that could be used for a greater variety of usage for weapon of this classs (door breaching, non-leathal, buckshot, slugs, ect...)

Interesting concept, is this for GR3 or what? I haven't even played the second one yet...lol...

Still the idea is interesting and viable, although not very attractive looking, kinda like a anorexic P90 or something.

DB,

>>
Don't expect me to answer those questions when I myself am not familiar with this weapon as well.
>>

www.levels4you.com...

covenant-clan.co.uk...

Snicker. Bring me my warthog!

>>
I just got those specs from the creators of the game. They don't explain how the rifle works. Its possible that the clip is based on the P90 method. But I don't have the full view of the rifle on all angles. Not to mention that the ejection port is far forward which is based on the method that is used on the FN2000 Belgium rifle that can fire and eject the case far forward of the rifle which avoids hitting the shooter's face. But this rifle is still in concept. We don't have much info to conclude anything yet.
>>

The two nice things about a bottom feeding conventional well/receiver combination are that they are CG'd so that the balance of the gun remains more or less predictable and you can butt the weapon hard to your shoulder to pop and feed a new magazine without having to do contortions like you see SG-1 routinely undergo (usually standing or sitting, eyes down) with their P90s.

Against this is the protrusion factor of ever larger magazines in both prone and around-corner conditions. And the certainty that, to get usefully larger capacities, you have to go to magazine springs which are just shy of impossible to handload.

I liked the G-11 (still do) conceptually, but it's 4.7mm caliber doesn't do a thing to convince me of it's ability to go through IBA, let alone put down the man wearing it if it does needle it's way past the plate.

The 6.8 Remington doesn't impress me either I'm sorry to say. I would prefer a minimum 8 and preferably 10mm, even if I had to sacrifice 500fps of mv to get it.

But then again, I look at the engagement conditions and the politics of todays warfare and I see soldiers no longer fulfilling a principle offensive mission where ranged fires count as much as instant onset and first round knockdown. But rather simple force protection ones, usually related to vehicle or site based security. i.e. no humping of gear and easy access to pedestaled weapons, but also potentially _very_ close combat ranges, manning checkpoints or whatever.

To me, that means a squat case and a big caliber with more muzzle energy than a handgun/SMG round can provide. But not anywhere's near the total effective distance downrange that is expected of a 'hunting round'. Even if it's just a varmint to deer caliber thuty-thuty changeup.

Which is what you are effectively looking at in the 6.8mm

Just LOOK at the recoil shown here-

www.hkpro.com...

Even if it is in a high burst rate (3-as-1 = 2,100spm equivalent) and with delays due to the recoil cylinder damping, you are still seeing overall shoulder loads on the order of a WWII weapon. And most just cannot shoot well with that kind of constant battering.

Target Mechanics Wise: At 50m I want to go through the IBA and mess him up inside so that he is an instant hydrokinetic shock victim if not KIA.

At 100m I want to knock him on his hind parts with the certainty of multiple broken ribs if he's wearing personals. If he's not, see above.

Around 200m and I would like to be able to at least saturate his spatial volume occupation zone so that he goes down with mulitple leg/lower torso or shoulder/head wounds and has to be dragged off the field by his buddies, ending their sporting activities as well.

Big Caliber gets you that in a long-magnum pistol case CT index that is appropriate for a top-load/worm drive magazine (nice chunky round, easy to enclose with pastic guide-bar corners and a forward seating flat.

I just don't see how big MV is necessary or _possible_ if you expect to hit anything with such a wide bore.

Of course the real difference comes to how effective your troops can be with their given weapon. And that is a function less of round energy than X4 wide FOV combat optics (see to aim), on-mount round counts (try try again) and the soft recoil (third round as first felt energy), IMO.

Past that, and the combination of better weapons/magnification packages and limited numbers of REAL SHOOTERS makes it wiser to go to a sniper or anti-material weapons system because the 'next leap' may well be to a 1,000m as much as 500 and yet you will still need to get 1 shot incapacitation because they are likely (mortar, LAW, RCL, Sniper, IED trigger man) firing explosive rounds back. Not autofire, no high round densities possible.


KPl.


P.S. Rather than high burst rates, I would prefer to see the sophistication of the rotary breech be coupled to a dual-feed receiver option so that you can get put two magazines on the weapon AND (at the click of a selector) switch between without an actual reload interval or with a 'combat reload' that keeps you in the game. This being the simplest way to get to 60-100rds on board, IMO. The G-11K2 did this. But as I recall, it was little more than a rack for two spare mags, not live ones.

Either way, look at the comparitive carry loads for the G-11 and M16 and G3
www.hkpro.com...