What do you think about the death Penalty?

Originally posted by saint4God
Are you perfect shauny?

depends what you define perfect as. however, i don't believe that jesus died on the cross for my sins, and i also don't need any clarification that i'm going to live forever in heaven. to me, i'm perfect, i have life, sure one day i won't but to me that's fine as i don't want to live for an eternity. so in my eyes my life's perfect, and i wouldn't want or need it any different.

as for the DP, to say that god is the overall judge, or question 'why should we be the ones to judge murderers' doesn't say whether or not DP is right or wrong. because of the way humans are we'll always have murder. and for such extreme circumstances, taking a life of another or many humans, calls for extreme punishments, which in this day and age seems to be the lethal injection. if the christian way is to forgive, then by given someone the DP, then surely he'll go to heaven and god will either forgive him or not...afterall god's supposed to be the final and only judge...or is that not a logical thought process?

There's a convicted murderer sitting in the electric chair. Your hand is on the lever. Bossman tells you to throw the switch. Do you? What do you feel before, during, and after? Why?

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
to me, i'm perfect,

No further questions. Progress would be impossible with this mode of thought.

Originally posted by saint4God
No further questions. Progress would be impossible with this mode of thought.

no. like i said, there's nothing i want or need to change about myself. i don't want to be taller, i don't want to be smarter, i don't need to be richer, i don't need to be poorer. the fact that humans will die, makes us an imperfect being, technically speaken. however, that dying is what i believe makes me perfect, because i want to eventually cease to exist, so there's nothing imperfect about death to me. and if a person is disabled, perhaps blind, does that make him less of a person, or more imperfect than another person?

i never said i couldn't progress. i just don't need to think i'm imperfect to do so. however, you seem to think you have to be imperfect to progress, but then again you don't believe in perfection other than jesus christ, so perfection is impossible to achieve according to you. which, makes this whole converstation pointless, as you believe perfection is unatainable. however, that wasn't the question, you asked me if i were perfect, or thought i were perfect. if there's nothing i want or need to change, that makes me perfect.

Originally posted by saint4God
There's a convicted murderer sitting in the electric chair. Your hand is on the lever. Bossman tells you to throw the switch. Do you? What do you feel before, during, and after? Why?

Do you: i pull the lever because it's my job. just like an american soldier in iraq will shoot an iraqi soldier, both fighter for what they believe is right, both sent out to do their job..no hard feelings, but i have to shoot him, the same as the lever puller should do his job. if he can't do it, he shouldn't have signed up in the first place.

before: i think in every death, no matter who the person, there's probably some remorse felt.

during: electrifying.

after: the satisfaction that this person will never walk this earth again, and that it's supposedly up to god to decide his final fate.

i'll ask you a question...why are you bringing up the electric chair, they don't use this method anymore. and also, could you answer each of those questions that you asked too?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i never said i couldn't progress.

If you're perfect, then you cannot, by definition make "progress"... you are already perfect.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but then again you don't believe in perfection other than jesus christ, so perfection is impossible to achieve according to you.

Please don't speak FOR me. I don't like it when people do so incorrectly.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
which, makes this whole converstation pointless,

Correct. If you are perfect there's no need for you to discuss anything.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
as you believe perfection is unatainable. however, that wasn't the question, you asked me if i were perfect, or thought i were perfect. if there's nothing i want or need to change, that makes me perfect.

i'll ask you a question...why are you bringing up the electric chair, they don't use this method anymore. and also, could you answer each of those questions that you asked too?

No point in giving answers, you already have all of them, perfect shauny.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4GodHokay, I have a problem with any life being considered "garbage" despite how despicable their acts. Yes they need to be in chains, yes they should have an armed guard to blow-out their kneecaps if they try to run (my 7th grade teacher was a prison guard at night, interesting stories he'd tell), but no we shouldn't be giving them freedom from their responsibilities to society. A lot of people pick on the slave-system of the Bible, but scholars will tell you that it was implemented to work off a debt or other "wrong". Great idea huh? We've got loads of work to do in this country, why are we wasting physical resources and at the same time educating violators of the law what it means to be a contributing member of society?

Forced labour, interesting subject! I believe and will bet one million dollars that forced labour would in incountable times lead to some form of torture, exploitation, abuse [insert verb from the Abu Graib dictionary here] which would ultimately lead to more pain than a bullet through the head. And it's easy to get away with since nobody cares about them anyway. An American officer recently got a 6000 dollar fine for choking an arab suspect to death. Way to go!

Originally posted by saint4GodI hear what you're saying and though you'll have as many different shades of answers as you would colors in a Deluxe Crayola Box, I had recently discussed this with thelibra (kudos for his help in exploring the topic). I believe I would use force to restrain my brother who was about to commit a heinous act, brute if necessary, but not kill. I don't think the words, "You shall not..." are open to interpretation.

It's not always up to you to decide whether the attacker will stop when you feel that you are overpowering him. Some people fight until they die, unless you are some kind of Kung Fu master who knows how to restrain 300 pound muscle infested beasts with a 15 inch knife. All I'm saying is, there are way too many probable/possible incidents that can occur for anyone to foresee the outcome of the situation. if you hypothetically knew the person would kill you, and the only way to survive was to kill him when you got the chance, wouldn't you do it? I most definately would.

Originally posted by saint4GodAnyone who kills is a killer: www.m-w.com... . I don't care how many merit badges society gives you, whether your part of the government, law enforcement, or military, the definition stands. I understand the military has a point and a purpose and am not one to argue with the president's decision in using them from my little chair, but law enforcement does have options with current technology with stun-effect weaponry and gas grenades.

Would you never question the orders of your president? I could understand that you support him due to both of you sharing the same views on religion, but seriously, and I mean really really seriously, Bush (in my eyes, as well as the eyes of most other Europeans) one of the worst criminals of the modern times. But thats a whole other subject, and theres probably 1000 threads on it already. I'd like if you answered my initial question though.
To continue, I happen to be an elite soldier (we go by that definition, omg 1337!!1) and I have to put it in a bit naive way "license to kill". I was gonna bring the subject up actually, but you laready did it heh. Yeah, the government allows me to perform the act of taking a life if the situation requires it. Isn't it weird that we are allowed to kill people who act suspicously, yet the government disallows executing people who have already done thngs such as rape and murder. I'll elaborate a bit more on that part: According to the book I must first fire a warning shot either in the ground or in the air if someone looks like they are about to or are in the process of raising a gun towards me before I engage fire. The Brits fire their warning shot towards the suspects, and we can all imagine how that ends up. But capital punishment is not part of the British laws, except that thet are against it. How come people get all bitchy when a person who has raped and killed little schoolgirls is sentenced to death penalty, but blowing up innocent people with Apache helicopters is a-ok, because the president said it? Is he some kind of uber-pope who's final word is law?

Originally posted by saint4GodI'm not advocating the release of murders.

I've already been through this. Do you think if the bible specifically said "Thou shalt not kidnap people" there would be no such things as jails? It's basically the same thing, thievery of freedom.

Originally posted by saint4GodAgain with the "trash" analogy. To that I say I hope you haven't made any mistakes to where anyone would consider you "trash" as well.

I possibly have, but whatever people think about me is of no interest to me.

Originally posted by saint4God
Wait a sec, you say you work in "Corrections" yet "they are not rehabilitatable". Does anyone else see a problem with this statement?

Semantics Saint. One could argue that it is a Correction to remove the blot against society from it.

It's a low probability, not invalid. By that thinking, no-one should ever hope for a miracle...and having zero faith is candidly disheartening.

Yes is is but that's reality.

Agreed. But wouldn't implimenting the death penalty to a great extent significantly reduce the number of employees in your profession?

No problem, if I have to work elsewhere I'd take that hit to remove these people from society.

Do you believe what you do has a positive effect on the people (criminals though they may be) you're working with?

Yes I do. I try to bring reason to the inmates I work with, there's one I KNOW won't be back. That makes my day.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
Forced labour, interesting subject! I believe and will bet one million dollars that forced labour would in incountable times lead to some form of torture, exploitation, abuse [insert verb from the Abu Graib dictionary here] which would ultimately lead to more pain than a bullet through the head. And it's easy to get away with since nobody cares about them anyway. An American officer recently got a 6000 dollar fine for choking an arab suspect to death. Way to go!

This is a problem with supervision, not with forced labor. Besides, the arab suspect was not a convicted criminal...and yes it was wrong for him to inact the death-penalty himself. Sorry to hear labour it may be "harder" than death.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
It's not always up to you to decide whether the attacker will stop when you feel that you are overpowering him.

I think a lot of us (especially those who have fought in the past) can determine when a person is down vs. blowing their head off. The human body is remarkably resilient but also fairly easy to read.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
Some people fight until they die, unless you are some kind of Kung Fu master

Blue sash. 2 more years until black if I follow the progression, and 5 after that until master. I'd recommend anyone who is interested in protecting others to take it.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
who knows how to restrain 300 pound muscle infested beasts with a 15 inch knife. All I'm saying is, there are way too many probable/possible incidents that can occur for anyone to foresee the outcome of the situation. if you hypothetically knew the person would kill you, and the only way to survive was to kill him when you got the chance, wouldn't you do it? I most definately would.

I don't think this area is as grey as you're making it sound. Killing is rarely accidental. Should I not drive because I may accidently kill someone?

Originally posted by Panzeroth
Would you never question the orders of your president?

Of course. Am I going to claim to see the same thing he sees? Nope. Am I going to form a militia for insurrection? Nope. After all, we were the ones who hired him.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
I could understand that you support him due to both of you sharing the same views on religion,

I served in a volunteer airforce auxilary under Clinton. Please don't pull that on me.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
but seriously, and I mean really really seriously, Bush (in my eyes, as well as the eyes of most other Europeans) one of the worst criminals of the modern times. But thats a whole other subject, and theres probably 1000 threads on it already.

Yep, thanks for recognizing that.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
I'd like if you answered my initial question though.

What'd I miss?

Originally posted by Panzeroth
To continue, I happen to be an elite soldier (we go by that definition, omg 1337!!1) and I have to put it in a bit naive way "license to kill". I was gonna bring the subject up actually, but you laready did it heh. Yeah, the government allows me to perform the act of taking a life if the situation requires it. Isn't it weird that we are allowed to kill people who act suspicously, yet the government disallows executing people who have already done thngs such as rape and murder. I'll elaborate a bit more on that part: According to the book I must first fire a warning shot either in the ground or in the air if someone looks like they are about to or are in the process of raising a gun towards me before I engage fire. The Brits fire their warning shot towards the suspects, and we can all imagine how that ends up. But capital punishment is not part of the British laws, except that thet are against it. How come people get all bitchy when a person who has raped and killed little schoolgirls is sentenced to death penalty, but blowing up innocent people with Apache helicopters is a-ok, because the president said it? Is he some kind of uber-pope who's final word is law?

I don't think so, no. But, I have the same power to advise everyone here as I do the president...which obviously is not very much.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
I've already been through this. Do you think if the bible specifically said "Thou shalt not kidnap people" there would be no such things as jails?

As proven by the breaking of other commandments, men will do what they will unless they submit that will to the Rule-maker.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
It's basically the same thing, thievery of freedom.

I possibly have, but whatever people think about me is of no interest to me.

Though the feeling may not be mutual, I care about what you think and why.

Originally posted by saint4God
There's a convicted murderer sitting in the electric chair. Your hand is on the lever. Bossman tells you to throw the switch. Do you? What do you feel before, during, and after? Why?

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

I pull the lever and sleep well knowing that justice has been done and that individual won't be around to harm anyone ever again.

Originally posted by intrepid
Semantics Saint. One could argue that it is a Correction to remove the blot against society from it.

Removal and correction are two different words. I agree there is a game of semantics going on, and candidly don't like it.

Originally posted by intrepid

It's a low probability, not invalid. By that thinking, no-one should ever hope for a miracle...and having zero faith is candidly disheartening.

Yes is is but that's reality.

I'm sorry to hear you feel this way.

Originally posted by intrepid
No problem, if I have to work elsewhere I'd take that hit to remove these people from society.

Alrighty, just wondering if you were aware of that consequence as well. Fair enough.

Originally posted by intrepid
Yes I do. I try to bring reason to the inmates I work with, there's one I KNOW won't be back. That makes my day.

Thank you for sharing that. That makes my day too , having nothing but adimiration and respect for people who can make a difference in other's lifes. It makes me want to re-think my career, since the greatest difference I can make at work currently is saying, "have a nice day!". I try to make up for that on my off-time. So you have corrected at least one person (and with that attitude I'd imagine there were many more as well). My question then is, who determines who can and cannot be corrected? Or, how do you determine who can and cannot be corrected?

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My question then is, who determines who can and cannot be corrected? Or, how do you determine who can and cannot be corrected?

C'mon man, judge, jury.

Originally posted by intrepid
C'mon man, judge, jury.

I meant, the people who you say can and cannot be corrected...or do you agree with them on all decisions?

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by intrepid
C'mon man, judge, jury.

I meant, the people who you say can and cannot be corrected...or do you agree with them on all decisions?

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Ah, I see. Well I don't work with these types of inmates. In fact they wanted to put a rapist on my crew once and told them outright that that wasn't going to happen. It didn't.

Originally posted by intrepid
Ah, I see. Well I don't work with these types of inmates. In fact they wanted to put a rapist on my crew once and told them outright that that wasn't going to happen. It didn't.

Understandable, I think. I'm trying to imagine this happening to me. It'd be a heavy decision for me. Most likely my family would insist that I not work with him/her either. Have you ever had the opportunity to talk to a rapist, murderer or otherwise considered dangerous persons?

I believe this discussion is relevant and is at the pinnalce of interesting so far. Thanks for the free interview.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Here is my take: If the individual is proven without a shadow of a doubt that he/she killed somoene(s) then they should be give the death Penalty.

Some will argue that it costs so much to use Gas/drugs, the electric chair. What happened to the good old bullet to the head or firing squad. Bulelts cost next to nothing.

We shouldn't have to feed house and feed these individuals and even release some of them so they can kill again.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by niato007]

Originally posted by saint4God
If you're perfect, then you cannot, by definition make "progress"... you are already perfect.

well i'll get older. that's change, and most likely progressing towards my inevitable demise. so yes i can change and progress. i believe i'm perfect by using reason such as i don't feel i would change or need anything else in my life, there's nothing else i want or need, i don't need more i don't want less. i'm not saying i'm a perfect person, i'm not always nice to people etc. i'm not sure we're on the same wave length here.

Please don't speak FOR me. I don't like it when people do so incorrectly.

so you don't believe jesus was perfect?

Correct. If you are perfect there's no need for you to discuss anything.

well i'm discussing aren't i. and again we're not on the same wave length. you seem to have a completly different thought process to me, and i honestly think mine right now is above yours, because you only see perfection in one light, however, there are many more ways to achieve perfection in oneself.

No point in giving answers, you already have all of them, perfect shauny.

stop being the child here, and answer the questions for yourself. i never said i had all the answers, and having all the answers in no way attributes to being perfect. like i said, we're on different wave lengths. you seem to think perfection is one thing, knowing all the answers, but it doesn't have to be that. so maybe you'd like to answer those questions of do you do it, what do you feel before, during and after... or maybe you don't want to answer them? and in that case why ask a question you wouldn't want to answer?

Originally posted by niato007
Here is my take: If the individual is proven without a shadow of a doubt that he/she killed somoene(s) then they should be give the death Penalty.

Please define "shadow of a doubt". Is that the same of "preponderance of the evidence"?

Originally posted by niato007
Some will argue that it costs so much to use Gas/drugs, the electric chair. What happened to the good old bullet to the head or firing squad. Bulelts cost next to nothing.

I don't think cost is the issue.

Originally posted by niato007
We shouldn't have to feed house and feed these individuals and even release some of them so they can kill again.

I don't think cost is the issue. If you'd like to talk about government spending, this is not a focus of concern there either.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well i'm discussing aren't i. and again we're not on the same wave length. you seem to have a completly different thought process to me, and i honestly think mine right now is above yours, because you only see perfection in one light, however, there are many more ways to achieve perfection in oneself.

When you feel you're thought process is no longer "above" mine, let me know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
in that case why ask a question you wouldn't want to answer?

I did want and answer, an I got it. Thank you.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
When you feel you're thought process is no longer "above" mine, let me know.

well let me know when you want to discuss something like an adult would, instead of acting your usual childish way.

I did want and answer, and I got it. Thank you.

so would you care to answer now...

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well let me know when you want to discuss something like an adult would, instead of acting your usual childish way.

Thanks again doctor, how much are these sessions costing me anyway?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so would you care to answer now...

Pointless. If you're claiming perfection...or we cannot even agree on the definition of the word itself, we're not going to be able to relate or progress. That places you "way up there" and me "way down here". My reach isn't that good.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by saint4God]