The conspiracy against men and fathers

As much as it pains me to write this, there is way too much male bias in this thread. Do some real research and you will see that more times than not the women who get custody after a divorce struggle along for years financially. I will agree that divorced dads are treated pretty shabbily when it comes to visitation and to their protrayal in the media, fiction, movies, etc. A goodly percentage deserve that protrayal, but by no means all.

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Do some real research ....

I would like to hear your example of "real research" as lying open such a blanket statement and walking away does a severe injustice to many who have posted on this topic.

The scales of “justice” are far more tipped against men beyond being treated “shabbily when it comes to visitation”. The women mentioned as “struggling financially for years” are a far cry from men being sent to prison or forced to live in absolute poverty under the current laws; not mentioning those who eventually turn to suicide.

The conspiracy against men, if there is one, is that you will be hard pressed to find the real stories in the mainstream media or movies as the “bad male stereotype” continues to sell.

mg

Astronomer68,
I am going to illustrate to you a concept of male disposability and female struggleing along for years.since you posted this:

"As much as it pains me to write this, there is way too much male bias in this thread. Do some real research and you will see that more times than not the women who get custody after a divorce struggle along for years financially. "

Back on page 4 I posted about the the woman I see and her girlfriend getting married again. Working the "Survival Options". Now watch the poverty and struggling along for years since I did not post this part but those who can think further than the standard mantra can clearly see this coming.
I posted that this guy who worked in her apartments got married to this woman and had a kid. Then a few years later her ex dies and the girls ,two of them, move in with her ,their kid,..a boy, ..and her husband. The girls have very high speed fast food lane type habits. NOw this boy is about 4 or 5 years olde at the time. How long do you think it took these grown girls ...living in poverty off someone elses production to begin taking sustinance from this 4 or 5 year olds mouth and think this is entirely normal...because of thier struggle??? Since none of the women worked or worked for very long..how long do you think it became before this guy doing the real work began to struggle along ?? Of course this is male bias..since only guys can be users...and low lifes.
Women who struggle along financially must be given the benifit of playing through and all our sentiments to go with it. Anything less is male bias. This is called a default setting ..like this computer ..it automatically goes there..no debate possible. I call this male disposability and expendability.
Please tell me how many men get the option of getting married to get them out of a bad financial situation..how many women do you know who are willing and able to "rescue " a man financially through marriage. HOw many men play the system this way ..arent they called "users " if they use this "survival Option"??
When I began to realize that these grown women were taking the sustinance from this young boys mouth ...while they were pit stopping their way through their leasure time on someone elses dime...it made me sick. He should have put a stop to it long before...and so should the mother. THese are not weak downtroddened "victimized " females..including the mother. THe grown male in this situation is as dumb as it gets because he thinks like alot of males that it is his duty and obligation as a male to take care of and rescue women. No matter what it costs him..and it cost him plenty. He is still paying today. This is one of the reasons I told him he should be suing for child support. I have also reminded him that he is not in the lost puppy buisness.
Are all women like this ..no they are not..this just happens more than is ever told. People male and female often think this would be normal..if not put light upon. Who was doing the struggling here without a wimper heard...publicly?? Who were the "victims here?? I'll tell you one victim..that 4 or 5 year olde boy...not the women.!!
My other point ..to you Astronomer68 is be very very careful what you think is struggle. Many many men out here struggle too..even though they often work in jobs that pay more than women..they do not often see the benifits of thier labor. This is one of the sore spots with many of the men posting here. Thier labor and struggle is implicit...not explicit as you are wont to make the women . The men and thier struggle doesnt count..they are expendable...the women are not...undertand??? Men can be taken for granted in thier stuggling... they dont really count. After all We are only dealing with a man here!!! They're just a paycheck and thier struggle doesnt need to be accounted for or made explicit. To do so would be male bias...everyone knows this..right??? Only female bias gets to be played through ..without any kind of dissenting light put on it. But of course ..this is the natural order of things.
Your post Astromomer comes across as if there is something immoral or unethical about a woman with custody struggling after a divorce....it is acceptable for a man to struggle.


Amethyst,
I recently read that book "Women who make the world worse." I tend to agree with your view of the author. I also read before that one a book titled..."Why men love bitchs" by Sherry Argov. " A womans guide to holding her own in a relationship. This book was truely sickening. It is right out of a Cosmopolitan,Elle Quizz and I have taken many of those and read the magazines. I highly recommend Astronomer68 that you read this book for keys to the "High Maintanance" woman and the source of her "inspiration." A suitable subtitle would be "how to get it without struggling by spreading confusion."

Oh by the way Amethyst...I too do not celebrate holidays. I recall this in one of your posts in another room. I gave it all up years ago..when I discovered the historical/religioius reasons behind most of the holidays.

Thanks,
Orangetom

For more information on the economic situations of men & women after divorce and on the inequalities still existant after recent changes to divorce/custody laws see: www.futureofchildren.org...

That is a rather lengthy report, but it covers the territory fairly, accurately & thoroughly. That is the very first report I Googled up--if it isn't sufficient I can always get lots more, or you can find them yourself.

At no time did I claim men don't struggle after a divorce. All I said was there was too much male bias in this thread. Look at the examples given, the stories told, etc. and you can see they never mention how hard it is on divorcees & children, just on the men. My comment was meant to restore some balance to the issue.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Astronomer68]

I know my ex is struggling right now, but coming after me and trying to take away custody of my son is not the way to go about making things better for her, or for him. Having realistic expectations and seeing to the needs of the children is the first order of business.

I'm not saying women in general, or my ex in particular are the problem. Its more a pattern of socialization that leads to failed marriages, and awareness needs to grow and adjustments need to be made on both sides. Many relationships are damaged beyond repair by unrealistic, disappointed expectations on both sides. It is imperative that the children be shielded fom incorporating these behaviors into their own relationships, in order to prevent establishing this scenario as the status quo.

I'm fortunate in that I've established a track record of conflict avoidance, appropriate behavior, and concentrating on the needs of my son, and believe it or not, on the needs of my ex as well. I'm trying to help her get through this as best I can without sacrificing myself.

Men and women need each other, and children need both their parents.

Applauds to all those who have constructively given their thoughts and experiences on the topic.When i`ve read these intelligent common sense and moral and sometimes heart breaking posts i only hope some of the younger readers of ATS have taken something from them.

I was sure you people existed here on ATS, though was`nt prepared for this level of intelligence and common sense.

Is there a conspiracy? in my opinion without a doubt,though not very important to prove (if i or we could anyway,i doubt that)when measured against what is happening to the family units as we type.Do i think marriage will ever hold the same value to the majority it once had even in such a short space of time as 40 years ago? I highly doubt it,too many children have been infected by it to know any better who now have children of their own now(snow ball effect).I hope i`m wrong.

For those young men who hopefully read this thread,if contemplating marriage with your girl, ask her to read this thread and hear her opinion of it,would be just as wise as any sound advice given by posters here to you imo,though keep in mind this is definitely not just for your sake but for your families sake.

To Godervant, rdube02, IcarusRising ,OrangeTom1999, missed_gear i`ve just finished catching up with the last few pages as i purposefully wanting to leave it alone 1 because i dont want to drive it 2 because some of it cuts to close to the bone and can only stomach so much having lived it and still do though your input was highly appreciated and respected.

And i`m sure i`m not the only male here floored by the likes of Justagirl who has recognized these issues without it having to personally affect her relationship first before seeing they exist,not to mention the maturity and morals Amethyst and Suzy Ryan and others have shown as women that recognize this topic is not an attack on women,as far too many in the real world if they read it would love it to be.

Originally posted by orangetom1999

The women and kids are more easily seduced and pliable/malliable to the program. Therefore they must be catered to ...especially for votes. The major issues that must be catered to constantly are security issues..Not terrorism but daily security...comfort levels. Ease and comfort. This type of thinking appeals to the female/effeminate. This means mostly social programs. This world must be made a beautiful place. Perfect ...Utopia. And the femminine/effeminate must have someone to pay for and do the work to support this utopia. Men mostly dont think this way...women/effeminate do. Hence the appeal to mostly female/effeminate voters.

Sex and sexuality are core to most women world wide..especially in the more developed nations where women have so much more leasure time thrown at them Any issue to get womens votes must take into account this sexuality...across the board....for votes.

They are teaching in schools that the male is disposable and expendable. This becomes obvious when you watch a graduation and who gets the grants and scholarships.

You know ..I was very surprised the other day to hear Rush Limbaugh speaking on this very pattern on his program. The femminizing of America. I believe the term he used was the castraiting of the American male. Myself and a handful of men here have been thinking along this line for some years now....and also in the arena of pattern recognition.

Oh ..by the way...I saw in the news that that woman in Florida...Deborah Lefave..got off the hook pretty much. Probation I think. What would have happened to a man..even by technicality. Male disposability...

Even in that case in Ohio..with the Judge letting that guy off the hook for sodomizing those boys. Alot of people are really upset by this one but the system is showing its fingerprint here too. Male disposability once again.
Watch for this pattern to be repeated again ..in the near future. This fingerprint.

Hi Orangetom

For the most part I found your post confusing. Ive quoted the bits I could understand but found myself shaking my head. "Sex and sexuality is the core to most women world wide" ?? Really? Where did you get that idea from... oh and whats the "core" of a male? Wow it reminds me of reading that Malleus Malifacorum, you know the witch hunting books, said in there that all women were highly driven by sex. So what is the core of men? Heh, I hear its all things good and spiritual whereas women are grounded in the base of sex and things that go sparkley ooooo.

Sorry if I come off sounding anything but polite but heck, your post has gone unchallenged. Want the laws changed? Maybe get off the "women are evil" bandwagon and find more support from women who CARE about their fellow children and men. Women who care will also want whats best for all children - a psychotic mother is NOT preferible to a "normal" guy when it comes to childcare.

Anyway, Im in the UK and not America which is where you base your experience of women and tar all women worldwide with the same brush.

I personally have seen "evil" done by all types...

ME, Im 33 years old, my STEPFATHER won full custody of me and my brother (his son with my mother) when I was around 10 years old. She was proven to be an unfit mother in court, it made the papers too. My point? Back then the courts "worked", a man who wasnt my boilogical dad won FULL custody of me. This happened in London during the 80's.

My main point for my post is this. If you want support from people, lay off the women bashing and tarring. There ARE predators, both male and female, old and young. If people are shocked by the evil done by women, then that is the fault of them by having women on a pedestal to begin with.

Truely, you want changes within the law and courts, then do that. There was a time in UK history that men had full rights over... well everything. That changed when it looked like that was set in stone never to be challenged. The same goes for today, even if it seems like a solid way of things, it isnt, stuff changes, you can change it.

Originally posted by Dae
My main point for my post is this. If you want support from people, lay off the women bashing and tarring. There ARE predators, both male and female, old and young. If people are shocked by the evil done by women, then that is the fault of them by having women on a pedestal to begin with.

If you've read my postings you'll know where I stand regarding equality and the disproportionate level of anti-male bias and discrimination in the world, mostly in western countries. So, while I preface with that statement, I want to also say that I agree very strongly with Dae with that statement above. I personally very much enjoy discussing these issues with intelligent and level-headed men and women who appreciate that both men and women have areas in our society where they are suffering bias and discrimination.

What I don't enjoy is when a man jumps on the "bandwagon" and starts grouping women into categories and then systematically trashing them. I also abhor it when a woman (more often than not they are a self-proclaimed feminist) - goes into a tirade categorizing men and trashing them up and down. The knife cuts both ways and both attitudes work against true progress and true equality (which IS possible)

Truely, you want changes within the law and courts, then do that. There was a time in UK history that men had full rights over... well everything. That changed when it looked like that was set in stone never to be challenged. The same goes for today, even if it seems like a solid way of things, it isnt, stuff changes, you can change it.

Absolutely. If you have a son applying for college financial aid - REFUSE to mark the "male/female" box and don't submit them for selective service. If they are not given financial aid because of it, file a gender discrimination suit against the government - or find others in the same predicament and file a class-action suit. Better-yet: call your senator and complain. Call or write to the movie producers who put out these horrible male-bashing movies with about 20-30 kicks to the groin as *comedy* - or portraying husbands as idiots....or every *abuser* as the traditional image of the white trash, pot smokin', beer drinkin' male. Because real life tells us otherwise - that that is the stereotype, but it's not always the case.

We can remove these old traditional walls that hold us back from experiencing the same freedoms, emotional and legal, that women enjoy. We just need to stop sitting back and letting ourselves get kicked around. Get together with your local men's groups, unite and start working to make our lives (and the lives of the women that we're married to) better for all of us.

I've enjoyed the intelligent comments in this thread as well. They are vastly different than what I experienced in the college forums back in the day. Those forums were dominated by women from the college of women's studies. I was ganged up on by the women's studies professors. However I held my ground and did not resort to bashing women - just reporting the biases men experience in daily life. And you want to know the truth? All of those professors could not counter solid research. They really were at a loss. Get out there, put together the facts, and show people how sex discrimination also hurts men - as well as our families.

With respect,
-Ry


[edit on 25-3-2006 by rdube02]

Dae,
Thanks for your post. No you dont come across as impolite. I did not take your post as such.
There is a very abomnable level of ignorance among many men concering this type of social structure. There are also some very dumb ignorant men out here concerning women and the system under which we live. I have posted such. Here and in other threads. This too is obvious by the posts of many of those in here. What they could have done differently if they had only known.
As a rule ...men do not socialize or communicate in the manner of most women, form social groups..so they dont often compare notes unless it is in the nature of some kind of problem solving for thier familys or their autos..etc..
As to sexuality being core for women world wide...you dont have to tell women about sexuality...in the western world..which was my main point..you see it constantly used..or misused..in advertising to sell everything to women..from the inadequecys of raising thier children to what kind of car or home to buy. They dont miss it at all. This technique is not used in the same manner in selling the male. The arenas sex and sexuality is used to sell males is sports or autos...etc...really stupid and stereotypical in the manner it is used on males. This is why I dont watch sports nor do I read this type of automobile magazines. They are clues to perform more without thinking about the real value,nature, or liability of your willingness to perform.
Advertisers know that in order to sell the male ..the woman must also be sold...in order to sell the woman ..the kids must also be sold...or marketed is another word...sex and sexuality enter here. Open a womans magazine...almost any of them. Look for the advertisements which show how she can become more effecient/productive at work.or in the work place.??? What you mostly find is advertisements for beauty products.
Try to imagine a ad..in a mans magazine..for "how to trim 40 pounds off that walnut cabinet quickly and without really working at it." I am constantly surprised by how many women dont think there is anything odd about this..men too..men are very dumb in this arena. And we wonder why socially ..things are so skewed?? Our views are skewed from the starting point.
The difference in the advertising formats and the way it is used or misused..is that with women is is more subtle..not as blatent as with males..but the women get the message none the less...why ..they are more subtle. Women are bombarded by this far more than are males...when one looks closely.
Take televison...remove the sex and sexuality from Jerry...Oprah..Mauri..or Rikki..what do you have left in a program.??? Very little. Watch the advertisements which sponsor these programs. How about this thing called the lifetime channel. Is this the male bashing channel??
My point in this is that sex and sexuality are sold and marketed to women..and men..in a destructive way..even at the cost of the family..and reinforced in the courts and education system. IN women it is much more destructively and subtily marketed...to the point of entitlement. Both sexes are very ignorant of it. This brainwashing starts very young....very young.
YOu go back and look at the track record of the womans movement from the late 1960s into the 80 and 90s you see sexual bashing going on carte blanche and unchallanged...this has died out lately...and many of the early positions have been reversed. This social structure is promoting the very thing and concepts which the early womens movement dispised. Open rampant sexuality across the board...among females from very young ages to olde age. A 180 degree turn around. Advertising has helped this trend tremendously. Advertisers did not miss the concept that young people can be easily put on the sexual tredmill..to sell products for a illusion of power and control over their lives. They will sell thier souls..for this illusion.
More importantly ...how long ..how many years do you have to run a system like this..a system of rampant consumption and entitlement mentality before it becomes a system consuming itself..because the people in it define anything of importance by their consumption rates..through entitlements...not by what they do or are capable of doing or even what they know. Understand?? How many years before you sell the very soul of a nation????
HOw long before a system like this is self serving and self perpetuating. Not very intrested in the overall welfare of the people it is supposed to be serving?? Instead ..intrested in specific welfare. Do you find this thinking in the "statistics"??? Which of these two groups..males or females are going to be willing to do the work necessary to maintain,construct, and perpetuate this type of self serving system?? Who is going to be allowed to play through unchallanged?? It's not difficult a concept to understand but it wont be in the statistics. But dont worry..people on a consumption/entitlement mentality will never get it..they just see the next gadget or goodie coming down the pipe.

Yes the next generation bear the price for this and carry the baggage..often without knowing ..they too think this is normal. It can be a wonderful self perpetuating system. Especially if we think that ignorance is bliss.
By the way ..this board is called "conspiracy against men and fathers."
It is not called "Balance"
What you see many of the posters out here speaking of ..is that neither is this system they are complaining about in this blog balanced.
THere is no initiative for a self perpetuating system to correct itself..the change must come from the people within it. The first step is awareness of it. Something much more than individual consumption rates and entitlements, specific welfare.
I have often said that when you see this come to its human logical conclusion ..what will happen is that you will see the true face of Government in that it will have carte blanche to discriminate against people for its purposes..not the purposes of those it claims to be looking out for ..the peoples welfare...all the people.


Astronomer,
Your point statistically..does it take into consideration how much struggle men must do to make the womens struggle less..or is it mostly that womens struggle is unfair?? Does it statistically show where women struggle in divorce to make a mans struggle less??? Does it show balance or economic unfairness?? What is explicit and what is implicit??
To be frank with you Astromomer...the dissappointment of many of the men I know ...is that their struggle and work to which they commit or must commit without releif..or entitlement...when they complain or voice thier opinions...what do they get ..statistics. Somehow..a government statistic...reinforced by grants..etc etc...doesnt cut it.. It looks good on paper like so many things governments do..or the study groups to whom they grant moneys.
Statistics can be made to show almost anything...and leave out others. Anyone versed in this trade can verify this.
The complaints of these men is what happened to them..not statistics. They are not intrested in apples and oranges. Keep the statistics coming ..you will do well with this technique..with real people.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Does anybody remember the song "Reeling in the Years" by Steely Dan? It kind of popped in my head as I was thinking about all this, and I think the sentiment expressed by the song is valid no matter what gender it is applied to. It happens to fit a largely female role, imo, due to societal perceptions of power in relationships.

Your everlastin' summer, you can see it fadin' fast
So you grab a piece of somethin' that you think is gonna last
Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond if you held it in your hand
The things you think are precious I can't understand
Are you reelin' in the years, stowin' away the time
Are you gatherin' up the tears, have you had enough of mine

link

Im going to keep this brief by only looking at one paragraph of your post.

As to sexuality being core for women world wide...you dont have to tell women about sexuality...in the western world..which was my main point..you see it constantly used..or misused..in advertising to sell everything to women..from the inadequecys of raising thier children to what kind of car or home to buy. They dont miss it at all. This technique is not used in the same manner in selling the male. The arenas sex and sexuality is used to sell males is sports or autos...etc...really stupid and stereotypical in the manner it is used on males. This is why I dont watch sports nor do I read this type of automobile magazines. They are clues to perform more without thinking about the real value,nature, or liability of your willingness to perform.

Apart from a tad confusing and contradictory, You said "you dont have to tell women about sexuality" EH? Ahh, my friend didnt know that she had a clitoris for 25 years of her life. But thats beside the point. I did a quickie google search and found this abstract to a study done in 2005 .

The abstract:

Two studies examine gender differences in responses to advertising with emotional content that varies on agencya fundamental component of the male, but not female, stereotype. As hypothesized, males reported a less pleasant viewing experience and a less favorable attitude toward the advertisement (Aad) when a low-agency emotion (i.e., stereotype-incongruent) ad was viewed with another male, while their responses were not affected by the presence of another person when they were exposed to a high-agency emotion (i.e., stereotype-congruent) ad. Males' and females' private responses were not significantly different, and females' responses were invariant across social contexts and type of ad.

(the bold and underlining done by me)

*sighs* anyway, ALL ads are stupid and stereotypical against all people. To be honest this is mainly a conspiracy site, and I find it hard to believe that you havnt tied the conspiracy into this. My meaning is this, ever thought that the whole "Gender Wars" is just another media portrayed rubbish? Dont blame the men and women who fall prey to the brainwashing done to them, because yes, people are allowed to study humans and use this information against us.

I suppose it all depends on what you believe, I for one think that our society is being run by a nefarious group of people, and to join the "Save the Whale [or Male]" campaign is a distraction from the root cuases of this miserable world.

*ad jingle* Help your Countries Economy and get a personal Loan out Today! *ad jingle*

www.genderads.com

Mod Edit: How to Quote – Please Review This Link. Thanks.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

As I recall I said Sexuality..not clitoris..apples and oranges...put any name you want on it...I said sexuality not clitoris. The premise is how sexuality ans sex can be used or misused to play the system..not clitoris. Understand. How to coin or monetize it into goods and services willingly or unwillingly. Is this in the statistics???? How about in the studys?? How the system uses or misuses it..to control us in one manner or another. This is the major complaint with many of the men who think this system is so one sided in its coverage. I use the terms implicit and explicit. Use what ever terms you want here.

Astronomer68 quotes statistics..you quote case studys..is there a difference.?? Make it explicit to these men here or to these women..not statistics and studys. This means little or nothing to them outside of more expendability or disposability.....these men being implicit..not explicit..in their problems or views. Understand??
While I am thinking about it...in this study..on advertising..did they go into detail about how the products advertised were going to be aquired?? Who was going to take risk to acquire them??? Or was it just the responses to different advertising?? Implicit or explicit??
I tried to click on the whole study but it necessatited subscribing so I didnt bother.

People who have or have had major problems in thier lives by explicit expreience..what do they get .. a study ...a statistic....a cupon... a makeover.

The person actually giving some other practical advice is Missed Gear. Practical advice or concern which can be used on a individual level. What do you offer...a study. Astronomer ...statistics. I can do the same with polling data.

Anyway..I dont know if you will get this point or not ..or just come back with another study and statistics. I think many of the guys in here understand it right away.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Make it explicit to these men here or to these women..not statistics and studys.

Heh, Im not going to bother, didnt you read my own personal experiences? Or doesnt that fit into your agenda? Dont answer that

Had my son over this morning and early afternoon. He ended up coming down with a cold yesterday afternoon after going through a difficult week in the aftermath of what happened Friday. I got him to drink a bunch of water and eat some fresh fruit and a solid dinner yesterday evening and he bounced right back today. I gave him extra attention and activity throughout the week to help him work things out of his system. By the time I got him over here this morning with his favorite breakfast and some play time, he was feeling a lot better.

Funny how this thread has attuned me to the gender portrayal issue, and how it impacts my son. One of the first things he did after finishing breakfast this morning was come out to tell me he wanted to go see "She's the Man" at the movies. That hit home. Then I see him playing on Nick.com, and he's playing some hillbilly game from the Amanda Show Online that has the girl character whopping the dumb hillbilly boy character over the head with a fish, a beaver, a bowling pin, and other assorted clickable items. My son is cracking up as he has the girl character whop the dumb hillbilly boy character over the head with the fish over and over and over again.

By now I'm going, isn't that just great. Here is the issue portrayed in this thread being acted out and ingrained into my son right before my very eyes.

Plot Outline: When her big brother decides to ditch for a couple weeks in London, Viola (Bynes) heads over to his elite boarding school, disguises herself as him, and proceeds to fall for one of her soccer teammates. Little does she realize she's not the only one with romantic troubles, as she, as he, gets in the middle of a series of intermingled love affairs.

link

hillbilly game

The only ray of hope was watching an episode of "Cat Scratch" in which Blix and Gordon go at it over the human Kimberly. Blix because she was really, really mean to him after he did something bad, and he fell in love with her after she berated him severely for it. Gordon had apparently always had a crush on the human Kimberly, and felt very threatened by Blix's affections. To make a long story filled with sculpting the moon with plasma rays, and creating black holes with vortex beams, and Blix and Gordon, fighting it out, being shot off in a rocket into space by Waffle, short, the rocket comes down on Waffles head, and the human Kimberly picks him to spoil and nurture and nurse back to health. She walks by Blix and Gordon carrying Waffle off to her cozy, heartwarming, special place, and the two defeated paramours burst out crying. How fitting.

My son is fascinated by the buttons on the post field in BTS, so I let him get on with me earlier and put up a joke to the jokes forum. It was the most fun he had all day.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Icarus Rising]

Hey, not all women are feminists. In fact, I'm very much anti-feminism, as feminism to me means act like "one of the GUYS." That's just my view on it, before anyone starts to holler.

I believe a woman should submit to her husband--but that in no way means that a woman is a man's slave. It's pilot/co-pilot. My husband and I have been married for going on 13 years, too.

I'm a stay-at-home wife and mother. My husband works. We have one child. I actually like it, much better than slaving away for a paycheck every week!

Radical feminism has really, REALLY wreaked havoc on the family, with no-fault divorce and the like, and of course the male-bashing. These shrews (I hesitate to call them ladies or even women--they're not acting very feminine IMO) claim that they don't need men to raise children, at nauseum...and it HURTS children!

When my husband's brother and his first wife got divorce, she abandoned them, so he got primary custody--and now she keeps on fighting it. I hope she never gets primary custody. She's a bad influence on their two daughters.

And don't get me started on VAWA. That, my friends, is a travesty!

You obviously did not read the study I posted a link to OrangeTom because if you did you would see there are very few statistics in it. You might try actually reading instead of shooting from the hip. Mostly what I'm seeing in this thread are males whining about the unfairness of society. Get over it and get on with your life.

When I got divorced in 1970 I was in the military, overseas. For the better part of 2 years I lived on 18 dollars a month because that's all that was left over after paying child support. Plus I was overseas and could not visit my kids at all; then I got sent to Vietnam (for three years) and still did not get to see my children. When I finally got back to the states I was immediately summoned to court for non payment of child support. I proved conclusively that I had been paying it to the court's satisfaction. Afterwards, I found out my ex mother in-law had been taking all the money and poisioning my kids against me. My ex-wife had no choice but to accept the evidence I presented in court, but she never did anything at all about her mother stealing all the money or tried to undo the character assination of her mother because she didn't want a family problem. As a result of all the above, my own kids grew up hating me. So don't tell me how tough you've had it.

Astronomer68,

It isn't whining. It is intelligent people networking experience in an attempt to avoid the very thing that bitterly seeps through your response. It is not a game of oneupsmanship where we go, I've had it worse than you, so shut up.

I feel terrible for you and your kids, and what your mother-in-law did was a rotten, dirty trick. You are right, she should have been held accountable, maybe even prosecuted.

To come into this thread the way you have and trash it like this in your bitterness and helpless indignation over something that happened to you over 35 years ago seems to me the anti-method of how to go about getting things resolved favorably for a family in crisis.

You serve as an unfortunate example of what the rest of us are trying to avoid. There is no way my son is going to grow up hating me.

OrangeTom if you read the study I posted a link to you'll see that one of the strongest reccomendations in it is for joint physical custody of the children where that is possible. Apparently the people who keep records of that kind of thing have discovered that fathers remain more involved with their children under that arrangement than any other and the children grow up better adjusted and better able to cope with their own lives. Further, the fathers say they are much more satisfied with the financial aspects of the divorce and are much less inclined to resent their treatment by the courts.

Now if you think posting something that shows the burden of divorce still falls more heavily on women than men is trashing your thread then so be it. In short, there is no conspiracy against men and fathers.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Astronomer68]

Now if you think posting something that shows the burden of divorce still falls more heavily on women than men is trashing your thread then so be it.

That's not trashing the thread. Though I do disagree with you, and remember, statistics also show that it is the women, for the majority, though not in my case, that seek the divorce to begin with. Again, unrealistic, disappointed expectations have a lot to do with it.

This,

Mostly what I'm seeing in this thread are males whining about the unfairness of society. Get over it and get on with your life.... my own kids grew up hating me. So don't tell me how tough you've had it.

and this

In short, there is no conspiracy against men and fathers.

imo, is trashing the thread, and I'm not Orangetom. And I still disagree with you, though you have my heartfelt condolences for what happened to you and your kids.

My mom left my dad in 1970, in a similar fashion to what happened to you, and it caused a major, twenty year rift in my family of four brothers (plus me) and a sister. My dad ended up getting all bitter and turned his back on us for a long time. I don't blame my mom for leaving him either, and my maternal grandmother did have something to do with it. So, I can say that I do know where you are coming from, but, again imo, it is you who needs to get over it.

Icarus Rising I did get over it. It took several years of extraordinary effort on my part, but I got all the kids through college and then helped them launch their own careers. (I recall having to take a third mortage on my home to get everything paid for, but I lived through it.) Today all my children are reasonably successful and fairly well adjusted--and they no longer hate me. Under the circumstances, I don't think I could have done much better than that. I feel no bitterness towards my ex-wife or my ex-mother in-law (who passed away a couple of years ago). I do feel pride in my children's accomplishments and will to continue to help them any way I can.