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US was 'outsourcing' torture - European probe (moved from ATSNN)

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posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 03:53 AM
A Swiss investigation into the `mystery` flights is begining to uncover evidence of the transfer of prisoners for torture. There is concern that there may well be Guantanamo Bay style camps within europe itself.
STRASBOURG, France (Reuters) - A Swiss investigator said on Tuesday there was evidence of "outsourcing of torture" by the United States but he had not uncovered any irrefutable evidence that the CIA operated secret prisons in Europe.

Dick Marty, a Swiss senator investigating the charges for the Council of Europe human rights watchdog, said it was "highly unlikely" that European governments were unaware of the abduction and transfer of prisoners.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

If the investigation continues and more hard evidence is uncovered of torture camps then what? What can/will europe do about any they come across?

I could see yet another rift happening within the alliance - but if anything , IF these camps exist they will just be moved elsewhere to a country which doesn`t care or just accept the greenbacks offered.

But many people have been saying it for a while - the mystery flights , the abduction of people going about there lives in there own country , who have little or no connection to the `other side` in the war on terror.

posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 08:59 AM
I guess what I'm curious about is this, first, there is no concrete evidence. Instead, the Swiss admit that there is only "coherent, convergent evidence pointing to the existence of a system of 'relocation' or 'outsourcing of torture."

That's fine. Let's assume for a second (and only a second) that it is true. At what point does the torture come in?

It seems like it is being taken for granted that if there are detainment camps, then there is torture. And, since torture hasn't been defined for us by the Swiss investigator, we don't even know what "outsourcing of torture" means.

I'm not really interested in an argument over the semantics of torture. I'd rather just point out what one can discover with some critical reading of stories like this. Essentially, this person admits there is no irrefutable evidence for the camps. That means the "evidence" he has is flimsy at best. And further, if evidence for the camps is flimsy, it follows tkhat evidence for "torture" is equally (if not more) flimsy.

Why, when your evidence is flimsy, do you make a statement to the press?

Ah, there's the rub.

[edit on 24-1-2006 by Hamburglar]

posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 09:21 AM

If the investigation continues and more hard evidence is uncovered of torture camps then what?

It'd be a pretty serious breach of any credibility that the US has. Sec. Rice specifically stated that no prisoners are tortured and that no prisoners are transported to places that will torture them. What this guy is alleging contradicts that.

However, he also states:

Yahoo UK Article
"No cogent evidence has yet emerged on the existence in Europe of detention camps like the one at Guantanamo Bay,"

But then in the same article he states

url=]Yahoo UK Article[/url]
"On the other hand, it has been proved -- and in fact never denied -- that individuals have been abducted, deprived of their liberty and transported to different destinations in Europe, to be handed over to countries in which they have suffered degrading treatment and torture,"

This has been specifically denied by Sec. Rice, so I have no idea what he is talking about.

Here is the report, in .pdf format
  • Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights: Alleged secret detentions in Council of Europe member states: Information Memorandum II

    Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights: Alleged secret detentions in Council of Europe member states: Information Memorandum II - Dick Marty

    It would seem from confidential contacts that the information revealed by The Washington Post, HRW and ABC came from different sources, probably all well-informed official sources. This is clearly a factor that adds to the credibility of the allegations, since the media concerned have not simply taken information from one another.

    Ok, so thats a pretty bad start.

    Mention should also be made of the stand taken by the United Nations High
    Commissioner for Human Rights, Ms Louise Arbour, who said in an article in Le Monde published on 7 December 2005 that secret detention was a form of torture in itself,

    Perhaps Ms. Arbour should be more worried about the genocide in the Sudan and call it as such than call the detention of terrorists itself torture.

    The report has a heading "Steps Taken to Date". Senator Marty has met with only one person actually involved in any of this, Mr. Armando Spataro, the Italian prosecutor against Abu Omar. He's also met with

    NGO representatives and investigative journalists specialising in terrorism

    Other than that, he's sent out letters and questionaires and received some responses.

    The report continues:

    the Romanian Parliament set up a commission to investigate the alleged existence of a secret detention centre on Romanian territory[...] Their conclusions do not seem to provide any evidence of such centres[...]the Belgian Government has launched an enquiry into flights and over-flights by CIA-chartered aircraft. So far, no stopover at a military airport has been discovered.[...] the leader of the Cypriot delegation to the Assembly forwarded to me his government's replies[...] no knowledge of secret detention centres on the part of national territory that is actually controlled by the Republic of Cyprus[...] The data, when compared with data held by Swiss air traffic control, indicate that [Abu Omar] was flown through Swiss air space, which has prompted the federal prosecution authorities to institute an enquiry[...]
    [emphasis in original]
    So, again, not really sure what he is citing as evidence.

    Then he just whips it out:

    Over the last few months, a number of former officials of the American intelligence services, some of whom had held responsible positions, have given interviews and provided many details of the resources used against actual and suspected terrorists. These statements, which have in fact been corroborated by indiscretions from officials still serving, clearly confirm that the current US Administration seems to start from the principle that the principles of the rule of law and human rights are incompatible with efficient action against terrorism. Even the laws of war, especially the Geneva Conventions, are not accepted or applied.

    No justification for these statements are made, except some jingoist quotes from newspaper articles from an officer in the CIA under Clinton and other former CIA officers.

    A startling admission however is made here:

    Mr Vincent Cannistraro, former head of counter-espionage in the CIA is reported to have said that a Guantánamo detainee suspected of belonging to Al-Qaeda and who was refusing to co-operate provided better information after being "rendered" to Egypt: "They promptly tore his fingernails out and he started to tell things"

    However, whats odd is that this is a quote from a local NY newspaper called Newsday. Newspapers are apparently where most of the information comes from in this report.. The information revealed apparently concerned plots by agents of zarqawi in europe to use ricin in attacks in the United States.

    Another admission noted in the report:

    Another official directly involved in "renditions" said that he knew the persons concerned would probably be tortured ("I … do it with my eyes open")

    A link is provided to the Washington Post article that this is from, but the link was improperly formated. I managed to find the article, and the same link was used here:

    This is the link

    The strange form of the link is to specifically the online version of the print edition, and I can't help but wonder if they got this unsual version of the link from the 'oil empire' page. Might be interesting that he is getting his information from propaganda sites like that. But I don't know how the Washington Post formats all their links nor if that is the only link to that story. There is no source for that statement in the article, its just said by a 'renderer'. Several quotes are used from that article and most of them have no source at all.

    Infact, almost all the damaging quotes and sources are from other newspaper investigations and are citing unamed sources. Senator Marty apparently is relying entirely upon newspapers for his information. While its perfectly understandable that a journalist would not reveal a sources name, its hard to see why it should be cited in an official EU report as evidence of anything. I would stress that this is the Second Report, perhaps its not considered to be particularly important and there will be a final report that does some investigating.

  • posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 02:48 PM
    Too many mistakes, misquotes, suppositions, unsubstantiated
    rumors and just anti-American wishful thinking from eurocentric

    This isn't news. It's a poorly written Hollyweird script for an
    NBC Movie of the Week.


    posted on Jan, 25 2006 @ 12:10 AM
    "(news) US was 'outsourcing' torture"

    News? This isn't news. Anyone who has ever called a 1-800-customer-support knows this. It's like, come on...

    posted on Jan, 25 2006 @ 09:23 AM
    I wouldn't say that there are misquotes and misrepresentation in the report, just that the report is entirely lacking in substance.

    Really, its nothing more than, say, an ATS post, citing a number of newspaper articles to back up a point. Except that at least with an ATS post you can have a point and a purpose to support, with a report like this, you are supposed to be seeking the truth, objectively.

    posted on Jan, 25 2006 @ 09:33 AM
    I'll try to be mature about this one.

    This is one i have to see proof on to beleive. I cant imagine this happening in our great nation.

    Will the story develop or will it just go away?!! I will be looking for the answer on this one.

    posted on Jan, 25 2006 @ 03:53 PM
    I get the impression that this guy will be issuing more reports as responses from the questionaires come in. I have to wonder if he has any authority to demand responses and the like though. Should be interesting.

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