Priest Must Prove In Court Jesus Christ Did Exist

no problem Rren, im not often very clear in how i put down my thoughts unfortunately.

Hey my thoughts don't exactly flow through the keyboard either.

To get back on topic, from the link you provided, i thought this was interesting:

timesonline.co.uk

Yesterday Gaetano Mautone, a judge in Viterbo, set a preliminary hearing for the end of this month and ordered Father Righi to appear. The judge had earlier refused to take up the case, but was overruled last month by the Court of Appeal, which agreed that Signor Cascioli had a reasonable case for his accusation that Father Righi was “abusing popular credulity”.

[snip]

Signor Cascioli’s contention — echoed in numerous atheist books and internet sites — is that there was no reliable evidence that Jesus lived and died in 1st-century Palestine apart from the Gospel accounts, which Christians took on faith. There is therefore no basis for Christianity, he claims.

[snip]


Signor Cascioli said that the Gospels themselves were full of inconsistencies and did not agree on the names of the 12 apostles. He said that he would withdraw his legal action if Father Righi came up with irrefutable proof of Christ’s existence by the end of the month.

(emphasis Rren) Seems this whole thing started as a personal vendetta, ie pissing contest. Strange that the court would choose to get involved with something like this... just outside Rome no less! I certainy don't see how this falls under any courts jurisdiction, but it seems as this case will be moving forward. Be interesting to see how this plays out... something smells fishy.

You know this whole trial is kind of pointless anyway. No matter what the outcome, people are still going to be able to choose to believe in Jesus or not believe in him. Of course, it has importance in a legal context with regard to possible religious oppression, but as far as the spiritual side it's completely inconsequential.

rock lobster, he said he intends to take it up to the european union court too, i dont think he'll be harmless, i think he intends to outlaw everyone from saying jesus was real.

I don't think he intends to have peoples beliefs outlawed.
But I do think that if he shows that christianity has no proof of the existance of Jesus that died and lived off the cross, it will make a lot of christians re-evaluate their belief systems.
I like to believe things that are historically accurate, the bible's we read today are not the bibles of back then, things were taken out, or added, things were mistranslated (or couldn't properly be). It was written (new Test.) 70 years after Jesus's time, if it was such an important event, why did the writers of the time not write of his miracles? You'd think they'd be right on it?

You see, personally I will not have faith in something that may just be a fairytale, nobody can prove it is factual.
A man claiming to be god, and then dying and coming back to life is a pretty tall order (was he even clinically dead?).
What would people think today if a man claimed these things? Would anyone believe him?

All I want is truth, is Jesus real as described in the bible, or is it a cleverly written hoax to keep people in line?

The path to the truth is not just science, but history.

If it's proven true, I shall be happy.
If proven false, well, at least I didn't waste my time.

That's the point I'm getting at, if it's not true, there is no point in belief

Funny thing about Christianity and religion in general is that the ones spreading the word are and/or have been doing the complete opposite of what they "teach". Forcing someone to believe in God with a sword in one hand and the bible in the other has been done again and again and again and then some, nobody can deny that. So what is the purpose?
We have a saying in the army: "Do as I say, not as I do" which we use when someone for example whines about the recruits not wearing the beret outdoors, yet he doesn't wear the beret himself. "Believe in God, live by the ten commandments, don't steal, dont cheat, don't kill, or else I'm gonna take your money, rape your wife and cut your head off. In fact I'm gonna take your money anyway. The church needs them to keep you under control. Capiche?"
Religion is indeed history, and Christianity is soaking in blood. As opposed to it's supposed message.

[edit on 25-1-2006 by Panzeroth]

namehere, yes I realize that this could be important from a legal perspective and if people were somehow legally banned from saying that Jesus was real that would be a huge injustice. What I'm getting at is, the truth is the truth and nothing any politician says will change it. Even if someone is legally prevented from doing something, if they believe in it enough they will still hold to their beliefs even under government oppression. Look at the disciples of Jesus, most of them were killed for their beliefs, same thing with underground churches in places like China. Panzeroth's post was also kind of in line with this theme, although that was the actual church trying to force its beliefs on people unjustly. Personally, I think a lot of people have missed the message regarding Jesus. Even in the Bible He said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God's". Also, part of the reason the Jews turned their back on Him is because they thought that when He talked about establishing a new kingdom, he was talking about overthrowing Rome, but in reality he was talking about establishing a personal change in the hearts of people IMHO.

Originally posted by Toadmund
I don't think he intends to have peoples beliefs outlawed.
But I do think that if he shows that christianity has no proof of the existance of Jesus that died and lived off the cross, it will make a lot of christians re-evaluate their belief systems.

I may be not understanding this completely but i believe that the priest is being asked to show that Jesus was an actual person, not that he was the son of GOD. Although i guess if it could be shown that Jesus never existed then i guess the argument over his divinity is moot. This debate has be going on for as long as Christianity has been, well Christianity though. No way is a court going to be able to decide this imo... the fact that this all started with a public squabble between two former childhood friends (both studied at the same seminary as young men). One becomes a priest, the other an atheist... now here we are. I doubt Cascioli stands a snowball's chance in hell an i'm still suprised this is getting any play in the courts... especially given where these courts are.

This guy (Cascioli) obviously has some personal issues with Christianity and specifically with Righi as can be seen by some of his comments imo.

christiantoday.com

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli is claiming that Righi – and by extension the whole Church – broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona," or impersonation.

You see, personally I will not have faith in something that may just be a fairytale, nobody can prove it is factual.

That's why faith falls under the purview of philosophy/theology not science. I suppose it could be scientifically (more or less) established that "a guy" named Jesus did exist... without commenting on His divinity, i guess. But this debate is very old and the answer/evidence is never adequate for a hardcore skeptic... much less an atheist. I'm not sure how taking this debate to the courts will accomplish anything. I assure you that my faith in the Lord won't be shaken by legal decree (most Christians/faithfull would agree i think), many Christians (like me) are well aware of the debate and to think that a court can decide this for us is laughable imho....

although this guy may be being set up to fail. I'm not really sure what to make of this. I still say it's a pissing contest... maybe that's what smells "fishy."

All I want is truth, is Jesus real as described in the bible, or is it a cleverly written hoax to keep people in line?

The path to the truth is not just science, but history.

If it's proven true, I shall be happy.
If proven false, well, at least I didn't waste my time.

That's the point I'm getting at, if it's not true, there is no point in belief

Fair enough. But you won't find your "truth" about GOD in a court of law... atleast i'm not aware of any faith based legal principals... this all seems pointless to me. Time will tell.

Just my .02...

Originally posted by saint4God
Normally I pass on by,

Yeah! i've noticed that Christians tend to ignore important questions,
they like to sit in there cosey, fluffy clouds

Originally posted by saint4God
If you want to receive the free gift of eternal life, feel free to U2U me.

How the hell do you have the gaul to suggest such a thing, you are the Profane walking around in a bleeding daze.

Don't get me wrong, nobody wants to find out it's truth more than I do. I don't think a court of law can do that. What are they going to prove either way?
At least it's going to be tested, and it's getting international attention.

If Jesus does come back, I'll be thrilled, but I'll hold my breath, but I won't be fooled by an imposter either, but I know a lot of people will be fooled and they will follow an imposter.


Beware of elaborate schemes of Jesus's return, like projections shining on clouds, I wouldn't put it past an unscrupulous government to fool the masses big time, put out a false messages, something like,
-"If you are a slave, serve your master well"!
-"Your government is an extension of god"!
Seems far fetched, I know, but possible. Corral the sheep like never before!

Religion needs skeptics, believe it or not!

Be religious, but be smart about it.

From the way the second coming is described in the Bible, it seems to suggest that the event will be so powerful that there will be no doubt that it's actually Jesus. So, I would agree with Toadmund and encourage people to be sceptical of any "false second coming" that leaves even a shred of doubt in people.

Yes, a false second coming would be the ultimate control of the world that was/could be ever devised!

Don't be fooled!
But with so many people in this world that believe without question, waiting for a sign, the ultimate miracle with great enthusiasm, I am afraid their will be a lot of fooled people indeed, and because of them, we would all pay a huge price on our human freedom.
And as today, it could be exposed as a hoax, but those who put all their heart into it will also deny with all their hearts that's it's phony, they've been waiting for too long already just to be let down, they want to believe it is the Lord and will ignore the truth because they feel good believing it and will call those who say it's a hoax, lacking in faith.

Skepticism is good indeed.

the second coming can always be a fake second coming put on by the anitchrist. do a search for the "bluebeam project." so be sure you have followed the plan of salvation. there is a simple procedure given to us to insure we will be part of his bride. come on dont tell me you dont know what it is. how can people have a disscusion and not even know anything about what he taught in his book? this is possibly the most important thing to happen in the history of mankind. but as far as this guy sueing....its just ignorance. he is still thinking in the physical world....someone needs to slowly tell him whats going on. give him a little milk at first. then later on maybe give him a little solid food. then when he's able to digest that, make sure he's able to grow for himself..then show him the deep meanings of his word. then he wont be sueing anybody.

I doubt jesus exisited theres little eveidence to support jesus exsisted. Jospheus wrote about a guy named jesus who died in a jewish insurection. Doesn't mean it was the so called jesus that did miracles.

Jesus will return in spaceships.not standing on a cloud wrapped in a rainbow.

if and when i see a floating human on a cloud descending to earth..i wont believe it.

When the spaceships arrive,thats when ill believe.

It will be much more easier for people to believe jesus is returning like the bible says...unlike how he really will return..WITH SPACESHIPS!

Originally posted by MagicPriest420
Jesus will return in spaceships.not standing on a cloud wrapped in a rainbow.

if and when i see a floating human on a cloud descending to earth..i wont believe it.

When the spaceships arrive,thats when ill believe.

It will be much more easier for people to believe jesus is returning like the bible says...unlike how he really will return..WITH SPACESHIPS!

i dont suppose youve been to www.bibleufo.com...
an awsome site showing a more realistic view of what people of the bible saw thousands of years ago.

Yeah, that's an interesting site.
But it's not the first source I've read about the alien theory, I also read in something called books, before the net I used to read them

The Sumerian stuff is interesting.
They had many gods that came down from the heavens.
And don't forget our old friend
home.freeuk.net...
Quetzalcoatl
Looks like he has a rocket pack on.
Yeah, the Azteks were pretty cool too!

"His existence is debatable and his life rife with lies"

Some brave soul once said.

To prove his existence is possible via the Koran, Gnostic Gospels etc but in order to use those items their validity needs to be assured which I doubt it will be.

You can't use the Bible because it's a document written by Christians for Christians to Promote Christianity and therefore bias as hell and useless as evidence though I doubt they will take that approach.


To prove Jesus was the Son of God is absolutley impossible.

That's a matter of faith based on no historical evidence whatsoever and there is much more evidence to suggest he wasn't the child of the almighty.

It would interesting if the Atheist wins. Proving in a court of law that Jesus never existed would be a real kick in the Vaticans crutch.

I wouldn't doubt at all that the Vatican knows the truth about religion and keeps it a secret.
They wouldn't want to kill their golden goose now would they?

Well, if Jesus did come back, and proved beyond doubt it was him, we should get some tape recorders, camera's, writers, etc. and get this stuff down right!

That way at least people will know what the word is, the real word.

I am pretty amazed at this case... specially because the priest is the one who has to rpoove something ??

Last time I was in court, i noticed its THE ACCUSER that has to present proof... so how about presenting proof that Jesus never exhsited...or even better that he WAS NOT the Son of God... I would really like to see someone proove that ...?