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There is no war on terror

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posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 10:50 PM
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I'm curious to know how many of the readers of ATS believe that there is such a thing as a "War on Teror". Can war be declared on an idea, on a method? Is it possible to defeat a way of thinking, a belief-system, or a disregard for human life? And if it's not possible, then what is our goal?

How do you see victory in terms of a war on terror? Are we just out to kill every member of Al Queda, and if so, why don't we put the war in those terms? How do we "win" a war of ideas? I'm asking this community for an honest appraisal of this war, and perhaps more importantly, descriptions of what a victory would look like? How would the world be different the day after victory is declared?

The war on terror was declared after the attack of 9/11. Since Osama Bin Laden was the perpetrator of that attack, is it possible to win the War on Terror without killing or capturing him?

Is it possible that this war on terror is a "forever war", a ruse to consolidate power by those whose ideas and principals are no longer powerful enough to stand up to the realities of the 21st century.

There was a time when the United States was not the most powerful country in the world. But the ideas, the principals of this nation changed the world, ended colonialism, brought change to countries as diverse as France and Russia. Is it possible that the fact that such a small percentage of the world's population as the US requires 90 percent of the world's military power an indication of our nation's might or an indication that our principals and ideas, our very example to the World just isn't as persuasive as it once was?

I'm honestly looking for your ideas and beliefs here. What is the "War on Terror" and how can it be won? Can it be won? And if the only way to win it is a world-wide police state, is it worth winning? Is it possible that there's another way to approach the problem of people whose lives mean so little that they are willing to throw their lives away in an effort to have some impact, no matter how pitiful or wrong-headed, on the world around them?




posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by vuoto
I'm curious to know how many of the readers of ATS believe that there is such a thing as a "War on Teror". Can war be declared on an idea, on a method? Is it possible to defeat a way of thinking, a belief-system, or a disregard for human life? And if it's not possible, then what is our goal?


Sure, a war can be declared on an ideal, been done before, The War on Drugs. How many countries in Central and South America felt that war? Was it successful? I don't think so, the are more drugs out there now than ever. Cheaper too, I might add.


How do we "win" a war of ideas?


With a defined one, like Communism, you spend them into bankrupcy. With an undefined one like "drugs" or "terror", it's not defined. How do you combat it?


I'm honestly looking for your ideas and beliefs here. What is the "War on Terror" and how can it be won? Can it be won?


Well if it's as successful as the War on Drugs, um, no, it won't be won. But the MI Complex will sure get flexed. Again.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 11:33 PM
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ever watched the latest star wars movie?

you know how anakin skywalker's wife lady says " the republic...we were the very evil we were fighting.."
when all that was good became bad..i think that's what is happening with the United States..alot of countries the way i used to see it when clinton was in office,looked up to us,but now it seems as if everything is on the flip-side..



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 01:47 AM
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The War on Terror is the 21st century version of the Cold War. There is no big bad power in the world threatening the West, so it is getting pretty hard to justify those nice big defence budgets. Now all you have to do is mention the WoT and the government are throwing money at you. You don't seem to have to have any real reason to go to war with another country now. All you have to say is that they are funding/harbouring/supporting terrorist groups and you can do what you like.

It is also a very convenient way to justify using less than kosher ways of gaining information, much in the same way as national defence was used as an excuse during the late unpleasentness.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 03:47 AM
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Tell that to the victims of 911 and to the parents of the men and women in uniform who are putting their lives on the line over there to keep it from coming over here. This war on terror is as real as it can get. Given todays atmoshpere and the current negitive effects in the Middle East, it will not be long before some third world country or any of the main players in this war now, make a stupid move and wind up killing hundreds of thousands of people whom are going about their daily life when the feces hit's the fan.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:22 AM
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Originally posted by chinabean
ever watched the latest star wars movie?

you know how anakin skywalker's wife lady says " the republic...we were the very evil we were fighting.."
when all that was good became bad..i think that's what is happening with the United States..alot of countries the way i used to see it when clinton was in office,looked up to us,but now it seems as if everything is on the flip-side..



Ummmm....can we please not compare the current political and world situatuion to a MOVIE!
there are alot of things you can interpret frm thos movies.....


anyway, I think we are finally making some headway in the 'War on Terror' which is more of a slang way of saying.....Islamic radicals that try to accomplish thir goals through acts of terrorism, in specific, al qaeda and other similiar organizations. And no saying all religion is the problem isnt the solution.


The fact is, IT WAS MUSLIMS WHO ATTACKED THE USA IN THE NAME OF THEIR FAITH AND KILLED THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS! THE US NEVER STARTED THIS WAR.....THE INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ WOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR AL QAEDA AND OSAMA BIN LADIN, WHO IS NOW IN A CAVE HOPING SYMPATHIES FOR HIM IN THE WEST CAN BUY HIM ENOUGH TIME TO REBUILD WHAT HE HAS LOST! HE IS ON THE VERGE OF DEFEAT!

STOP! whining and crying about the rights of people who would sooner kill you then co-exist with you!



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:49 AM
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I personally would argue that those who disagree with the War on Terror (Myself included) should stop using the rhetoric formed slang of the U.S. Government and ONLY refer to it as what it is.

We need to cease calling it the "War on Terror". It isn't. It is the next Crusade. I can't remember my History all too clearly on the subject, but I think there were Five of them.... so if that is right, this would be the 6th....

So, if I'm right, we should all be calling this the 6th Crusade. We need to stop using "War on Terror", because it makes it all seem righteously justified. We also need to stop using the rhetoric statement "We must fight them there so we do not have to fight them here." and start referring to it as it really is.

"We must Murder them before they Murder us."

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three left's do.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 06:08 AM
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More like the 'war to fuel terror' than the war on it IMO.

Yes just like the 'war on drugs' and the 'war on crime', throwaway buzz words designed to make you think 'they' are doing something to 'protect' you from an unseen enemy.

We already know the war on drugs and all the other wars on things were just total BS, and actualy fueled what they were supposed to stop.

It's all designed to justify the presence of overbearing control and power by the state. Without some 'enemy' to protect us from, why would we spend billions on the military or the government itself?

The gov has to keep a steady state of fear in the population to justify their own existance. Whilsed the real reasons for invading Iraq are far different.

Bush even said in a round about way that they lied about the reasons to go invade Iraq but so what we don't care if you know, we're there and there's nothing you can do to stop us.

kinda like na-na-na-na-na we lied but you can't stop us....LOL



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword


We need to cease calling it the "War on Terror". It isn't. It is the next Crusade. I can't remember my History all too clearly on the subject, but I think there were Five of them.... so if that is right, this would be the 6th....

"We must Murder them before they Murder us."

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three left's do.



um....deny ignorance?



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by PaddyInf
The War on Terror is the 21st century version of the Cold War.

This is also my take on the WOT.

The WOT is a lot faster paced and more deadly, but then life is like that these days, too.

I remember the Cold War and it was all about fear. I remember the Nuclear Threat, the Bay Of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Berlin Wall crisis, the Space Race. Communism. McCarthyism. Better dead than red. Spying on citizens.. The U2 over Russia. Black Listing and the HUAC.
Sound familiar????

It was all about fear, it was all about US vs THEM. THEY are different and THEY want to take US over.
Is history repeating itself



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:25 AM
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personally i think this whole "war on terror" is an inside job from our esteemed govt. using it as justification for removing the constitution and ushering in a NWO with complete control over our individual lives. 911...BIG FAT LIE...meant to scare us all into surrendering our privacy and our freedom. sure there are terror group out there like al quaida... im not saying that they are not real... im saying that they didnt do 911...and if they did the govt help and/or enabled them to do so...... i just think its funny that less then a year into bushes term we get this attack and since then our rights have been stripped almost to the bone...this is what big brother wants.... most stringent laws make more criminals which in turn makes more prison labor and gives them tighter grip on all of us...... forget about the right to privacy....gone.... forget about our right to free speech...gone...... helll i may be arrested just for saying this crap..maybe im dead wrong...and if i am then nothing bad happens to our constitution...but i dont believe this to be the case. we have already seen the levels of unparralled corruption in our govt today.... ands the back door legislation(see sec 113 of the new womans protections bill) youll see that it is now illegal to annoy anyone..yes annoy, on the net without disclosing your true identity...unreal...whats next you have to pee in a cup to buy groceries?.....seriously when will they stop...my guess is never...not until you cant breath without their permission. maybe im getting carried away.
Back to the point... NO the war on terror is a farce its a lie made up to control and seize power from the common man(not that the common man had much to begin with) but now we are on the verge of not being able to speak out in any way shape opr form against some of the things our govt does that we may not approve of. You can fool some of the people all the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time...but you cant fool all the people all the time!!!!!



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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I appreciate the thoughtful posts, but I still haven't heard a single mention of what victory in the war on terror would look like.

Flyin' High, maybe you'd like a shot at this. How would victory in the war on terror look to you? When can the US declare victory? Under what conditions?

Please someone, tell me what the conditions to victory in the war on terror are.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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If indeed, the WOT is the latest incarnation of the Col War, the victory over WOT will be similar to the "end" of the Cold War.
It'll wind down, THEY will no longer be considered THE enemy, the President and the OTHER SIDE will come to terms: end of the Cold War search



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by FLYIN HIGH
Tell that to the victims of 911 and to the parents of the men and women in uniform who are putting their lives on the line over there to keep it from coming over here. This war on terror is as real as it can get. Given todays atmoshpere and the current negitive effects in the Middle East, it will not be long before some third world country or any of the main players in this war now, make a stupid move and wind up killing hundreds of thousands of people whom are going about their daily life when the feces hit's the fan.


If it makes you feel any better, I am one of those men in uniform that you speak of. I've done 2 tours in Iraq so far (TELICs 2 and 5), and I have another coming up. Trust me, the Iraq conflict is not about terror, it is about oil and control of pipelines in the Middle East. It was 15 years ago and it is now.

As for 9/11, it was a very sad day and I don't doubt that there was a large number of evil people involved in its planning and execution, but the "WoT" has gone way beyond that. Certain politicians are getting through so many of the legislations that have been knocked back in the past due to civil liberties breeches because of some flimsy link to terror.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:03 PM
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Ironny, people disagree with a war but rush off to fight it. Or they fight it but claim they follow orders.... remember what happened in Nazi Germany, they followed orders to and look what happened. Frankly even if your "in uniform" and you dont agree with it refuse to fight and pray they dont execute you, or dissapear that ity bity check you get aint worth the bother of dying or getting injured.
"Your either part of the solution or part of the problem."
That goes for every single "soldier" in the US military right now, if you dont agree with it but still fight for it your the enemy now, if you refuse and go AWOL your helping things a tad but need to figure out what more to do to stop the war of genocide.
"If you know the nation does not support the war, are you really fighting for the nation?"
Vekar



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:03 PM
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Excellent Post!

There is No War on Terror.

There is War.

And there are Superpowers.

And there is the Perpetual Circle of Violence.

And there is Perpetual Profit.

Just like War on Drugs - War on Terror actually INCREASES Terrorism.

Mister Noam Chomsky:


Alternet

There are metrics. For example, you can measure the number of terrorist attacks. Well, that's gone up sharply under the Bush administration, very sharply after the Iraq war. As expected -- it was anticipated by intelligence agencies that the Iraq war would increase the likelihood of terror. And the post-invasion estimates by the CIA, National Intelligence Council, and other intelligence agencies are exactly that. Yes, it increased terror. In fact, it even created something which never existed -- new training ground for terrorists, much more sophisticated than Afghanistan, where they were training professional terrorists to go out to their own countries. So, yeah, that's a way to deal with the War on Terror, namely, increase terror. And the obvious metric, the number of terrorist attacks, yeah, they've succeeded in increasing terror.

The fact of the matter is that there is no War on Terror. It's a minor consideration. So invading Iraq and taking control of the world's energy resources was way more important than the threat of terror. And the same with other things. Take, say, nuclear terror. The American intelligence systems estimate that the likelihood of a "dirty bomb," a dirty nuclear bomb attack in the United States in the next ten years, is about 50 percent. Well, that's pretty high. Are they doing anything about it? Yeah. They're increasing the threat, by increasing nuclear proliferation, by compelling potential adversaries to take very dangerous measures to try to counter rising American threats.

So basicly War on Terror does NOT decrease Terrorism, it Increases it and not only that, it also Creates a perfect Breeding Ground for Terrorism and for Attacks on American People on their Land.

Just like the Russians increased the number of Terrorist Attacks on their Home targets but leaving Chechny a Bleeding Wound, so do the United States increase their Chances of a Terrorist Attack everyday by bombing foreign countries for alleged War on Terrorism, when we all know they are talking about War of Resources, since Majority of Modern Conflicts have to do with OIL or MONEY.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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So it seems we agree there is no War on Terror so what would it take to 'win' whatever it is?

For the Coalition of the Willing (to lie to their people) to win the most marbles and agree how to divide the spoils.

Just pray if and when they do, they don't notice someone else with a bigger bag of marbles.

Spoilt brats demanding the biggest, mostest, bestest of everything everyone else has.

Well that's my 'secular' take on the situation but I do believe at the core of it is a 'faith war' even many of the top dogs of war aren't privy to and it isn't Islam against the west.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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So basicly War on Terror does NOT decrease Terrorism, it Increases it and not only that, it also Creates a perfect Breeding Ground for Terrorism and for Attacks on American People on their Land.


Is that the reason why the US has not been attacked since 9/11? Seems to me that the WOT is succeeding in keeping the US safe. As for terrorism elsewhere, well, that really doesn't concern me, as long as the US mainland is safe I’m satisfied.


Ironny, people disagree with a war but rush off to fight it. Or they fight it but claim they follow orders.... remember what happened in Nazi Germany, they followed orders to and look what happened.


Your attempt to portray our soldiers as Nazis is an insult and its very pitiful.
You should be lucky that you live in such times where you can urge soldiers to desert.
I offer a quote from Abraham Lincoln.

“Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier boy who deserts, while I must not touch a hair of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?” -Abraham Lincoln-



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
As for terrorism elsewhere, well, that really doesn't concern me, as long as the US mainland is safe I’m satisfied.

Great.

You're just too Modest.

Basicly you're Satisfied, because you have a Car and Money to pay the Gasoline and to pay the Apartment (which won't be destroyed by an aerial bombardment) and guy some food and water.

Actually, you are satisfied because War on Terrorism is a Success and the Number of attacks has DEcreased and the Threat of a major attack on US Soil has DEcreased by 50%?

Or maybe you are just happy that you can still BUY.

Anyway, did you know that,
An Averege North American Consumes FIVE Times more then a Mexican,

TEN Times more then a Chinese Person,

and THIRTY Times More then a Person from India.

The North Americans are the Most Ferocious Consumers in the World - a World that could die because of the Way the North Americans live.

The American Way.

Because that's whats all about!

Where Everything is for Sale!

Wars.

Peace.

Countries.

Goverments.

Elections.

People.

If you have the MONEY to BUY it.

And that's whats really all about the Modern Consumer-Capitalistic Society - the Terrorism of Consumerism.

Because you are ready to Consume anything and everything they serve.

They SELL.

You BUY.

They get the MONEY.

You WORK.

So, War on Terrorism is really NOT War on Terrorism - it is the War of Consumerism and the war of the Capitalistic Corporate Society, that is Obsessed with Profit and Power.

You know,
For years the Economics have used the Gross Domestic Product as a Measure of an economic Level of a Country.

But the Problem is that with every Dead Soldier - the GDP goes up.

With every Rain Forrest falling - the GDP goes up.

With every Patient diagnosed for Cancer - the GDP goes up.

With every Tanker Oil Spill - the GDP goes up.

Is that how We should measure Economic PROGRESS?



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 06:16 PM
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I think using the fact there has been no attack on America since 9/11 as an excuse for the success of the WOT is very naive.

Let's remember there was many more years between the first WTC attack and the second then between 9/11 and now. So was Clinton a success? I know the USS Cole was attacked but there are terrorist attacks against US military assets more than once a day now thanks to the war in Iraq.

Bush, etc have done little more than any other president to secure the homeland. We have simply been lucky. If he wanted to protect us he would have ensured the destruction of Bin Laden and his group, you know the actual enemy that attacked us.

Iraq is a diversion. Also someone mentioned that without the WOT Iraq would not have happened. I think GWB planned to go into Iraq before 9/11 and would have found a way. Hasn't that been proved here many times through the initial planning done before the attacks? Wasn't Rummy screaming Iraq the day after the attack? Didn't they just happen to have already worked out an invasion plan?




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