Where are the Columns of Hercules?

WHERE ARE THE COLUMNS OF HERCULES?

There are few years since I folow up topics about ancient civilizations on this site and I learned a lot.
But now I become a member to be able, in return, to share with you my foundings about the Pillars of Hercules.

I was hoping that an educated person (wich I'm not) will bring this informations to your atention but so far to my knowledge no one did that.
That's why I decided to let you know wath I found.

The book from wich I read about The Pillars of Hercules is divided in 41 main chapters and has only recently been started to be translated in english althou it is almost a hundred yers old compedium.

The chapter about the Pilars of Hercules is no. 16. and starts at page 229.
There are a lot of coutations from the greek and the roman autors of antiquty.

The main point of the cheapter is that the Gibraltar striat did not mutch the descriptions of the ancient autors and that the Pillars are somewere else.

This has direct bearing about were to look for the mitical Atlantis.

I will let you see for yourself the data from the book and see wath we can made of it.

Thanks.

The link is at www.dacia.org/densusianu/pd.pdf


Edit: All caps.

[edit on 21-1-2006 by intrepid]

Hello Geticus

Here is a link discussing the pillars:

Pillars of Hercules

This is quite interesting. I never knew there was a debate about the pillars location and always asumed it was the strait of Gibralter.

If there is debate about the location then that is worth looking into in more depth.



[edit on 21-1-2006 by StJude]

Hello StJude

Your link to the Pillars of Hercules in Wikipedya is quite interesting too.

It shows that before Eratoshtenes the Pillars were thoght to be on the Sicily Strait and at the time of Alexander the Great or after were moved to Gibraltar.

This confirm N. Densusianu point in "Prehistoric Dacia" that it was a lot of confusion about the place of the Pillars from ancient times and they were moved gradualy to the west till finally they were settled on Gibraltar.

This was leading in it's turn to the location of Atlantis from the Atlantic to Cuba or Anrartica or any concivable place on Earth that we see it today.

I agree with you that we need to look at it into in more depth.

As N.Densusianu puts it this was started "when navigatoin on the big seas had passed from Pelasgians... to the Phoenicians when the Homeric Ocean became mixed up with the External Sea or the Iberic Ocean the true position of the Columns of Hercules became enigmatic for the Greek world of the southern parts of Europe".

According to the same author this was led to the assumption that the Pillars of Hercules are near to the Iberic Ocean wich was acctualy known very late to
the Eastern Mediteranian comerce world.

This relocation of the Columns of Hercules, he continues, brought an enormus confusion in the geography, ethnography and history of the pre-Herodic times.

Mountains and rivers, islands and lakes, people and cities, legends and historical events were dislocated from the eastern parts of Europe and thrown upon the geographcal maps of the extrme Occident, he ads.

To the pre-Homeric people of eastern Europe the Pillars of Hercules were located on the Oceanos Potamas. (Potamas means a large river in old Greek).
N.Densusianu indentifies this Oceanos Potomas with the lower Danube or Ister as it was called at that time according with the best sourses of ancient Greace.

More about it on the next post or look at:

www.dacia.org...

I had a big problem for my self for a long time to accept that a river (even a big one) can be call an Ocean.
In the Colins Home Dictionary I found that an Ocean is not just a salty water but also a vast volume or expans wich of course can be aplay to a big river like Ister in special in thoes ancient times.

I have serched more in the last couple of days wath N. Densusianu wrote in his book "Prehystoric Dacia" about the Columns of Hercules based on ancient sourse and I found 10 solid arguments that the Pillars of Hercules were not at Gibraltar but nord-west of ancient Thrace on the lower Danube or Ister as it was called in those times.

Here they are:

1. Pliny tell us that in those times there was an inland sea beyond the gorge of Ister wich Hercule opened it by cuting the montain and let the inland sea to flow through. This way the two Columns were taking shape.

Can anyone aplay this to the Gibraltar straits?

2. Pindar the poet ,also tell us that Hercules has scrutinised the fords of the flowing rivers and that no one can pass upstream betwin the two Columns.

Again, can anyone aplay this to Gibraltar straits?

3. Artimidor of Ephesus and Strabo could not found the Columns at the External Ocean.

4. The Romans did not claim the glory of descovering the columns in Iberia even before the distruction of Carthage. (Pliny)
They were sure that the Columns were not there and they were searching for them at the Norden Sea (Baltic) in the time of Drus Germanicus without any succes. (Of course) (Tacitus).

5. Pindar, again seid that the Columns of Hercules where in the country of Hyperboreans, in the Istrian country, the extreme limit of navigation.

Again, this can not be aplay to the Gibraltar.

6. The Greeks of Euxine Pontus (western Black Sea) new that the Columns were outside of Euxine Pontus near the big river Oceanos. (Herodotus),who was awere that the Columns were in the geografical region of Ister.

7. The Ister bigan it's course in the land of the Celts. (Germany today). That was beyond The Columns towords nord-west. (Herodotus)

Can anyone make any sense of this if we aplay it to the geografical region of Gibraltar?

8. Herodtotus again tell about the Cynesii the most extreme people in the west beyond the Celts.

That makes the Columns inside the continent of Europe betwin the Celts and the Scythians.

9.The Pelasgians of Asia Minor preserved till Pausanius' time a reminiscence of the king Geryon who lived near Oceanos potamos or near the Columns of Hercules.

10. According to Pliny, upstrim from the island Gadira navigation was not possible. There the stone walls were so close that one single tree could hinder with it's branches the passing of vessels.

Are the Gibraltar straits so narrow?

This are the some of the imputs presented in the book of N. Densusianu who was a scholar and a member of the Romanian Academy.

I will welcome any coments pro or contra.

Any narrow straight with promontories on both sides could be called Pillars of Hercules. I am aware of several more than the wikipedia reference gives, including the Straights of Hormuz, the Bosporus Straight, and the English Channel. It was a common place name on ancient maps.

It seems if the mapmaker did not know the real name, he just called it that. Don't fixate on Gibraltar.

But the description of Gadeirus as being one of the sons of Poseidon is a dead give away that Gades or Cadiz (Southern Spain) was facing Atlantis, implying the Pillars of Hercules is Gibraltar.

Hello dave_54

Thanks for your coments.
It's true wath you said but our scope here is to indentify de real one, the real Pillars of Hercules. This can only be done by going to the most ancient sources. Don't worry about the fake Pillars.
You seems to have checked the Wikipedia but it dose not
seems you checked my link as well.

And I'm not fixed on Giblartar. I only wanth to show that is not the true place for the Pillars of Hercules as it is regarded even today and trying to descover the real one. Would you please give me a hand in this research?

Wath we need is a real research based on geografical descriptions of ancient sources.
We don't need to worry for English Chanell, for exemple, wich does not fit in the geographical area of our sources.

1. Pliny tell us that in those times there was an inland sea beyond the gorge of Ister wich Hercule opened it by cuting the montain and let the inland sea to flow through. This way the two Columns were taking shape.

Can anyone aplay this to the Gibraltar straits?

yes.

And the block that separated the sea and the ocean, at some point was breached. Vast volumes of water entered the Mediterranean sea and the sea level rose considerably.
I have seen a documentary showing that scientists have found evidence of this event, though I recall little more, I am pretty sure it was recent enough to drown some ancient coastal settlements, in the affected area, like the Black Sea etc.

Pindar the poet ,also tell us that Hercules has scrutinised the fords of the flowing rivers and that no one can pass upstream betwin the two Columns.

Again, can anyone aplay this to Gibraltar straits?

For many years that would have been true, if the first one is.

8. Herodtotus again tell about the Cynesii the most extreme people in the west beyond the Celts.

That makes the Columns inside the continent of Europe betwin the Celts and the Scythians.

9.The Pelasgians of Asia Minor preserved till Pausanius' time a reminiscence of the king Geryon who lived near Oceanos potamos or near the Columns of Hercules.

Cynesii? Is it possible, I am asking, for this to refer to the great ancient culture known to have been on the west coast of North Africa? Hendrix's famous castles in the sand, if I am not mistaken, and if so, there is much other proof existing. That could answer both, they were across from the Celts, on the south side of the straits, and they were likely the most extremely west people known.
This is pure speculation, Cynesii and Geryon are unknown to me, and may be names of different people.
But, what if?
That is maybe 4 supports for the straits theory, placing Atlantis in the Atlantic, which is appropriate as far as the two names go anyway.
And it keeps my fave Atlantis bet alive, the center of the one great ocean, the top of the old maps, the continent below thousands of feet of water... frozen water that is.... Antarctica. Overall, no proposal I have seen is as intriguing.... could it be? Searching the freshwater Lake that lies very deep below the ice, mysterious Lake Vostok, may answer that, and if the NSA would let them, space surveys could go ahead. Why did they block that project anyway? The NSA? All I know about them is they are bigger than the CIA, and Ollie North worked there. Are they really interested in stopping some of the efforts involved in space survey equipment aiding an underground fresh water Antarctic Lake be explored?

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

Hello lostinspace,

Thanks for your coments.
If you will have cheked on my link you will have found the answer about Cadiz.

Also in my second post in the 8and 9 paragraphs you will have found an answer.
I think that we all should do our homework before posting anything.

Hello BlackGuardXIII

Thanks for your coments.
This is another storry with the rising level of the oceans and flooding the wath is now Mediteranian sea, wich in turn flooded the actual Black sea and the forming of the Danube Delta.
I sow some programs too about that. But is still just a teory not totally prove. The problem is with the Dardanele Strait wich seems that is not confirmig the teory.

Anyway I'm not sure if is any conections with the Pillars of Hercules location in this context. We may never know wath was happened there.

Wath we are traying here to found is the location of the Pillars of Hercules of wich we have good ancient sources for them to believe that were on the lower course of the Ister or Oceanos Potamos( the large river).

You and nobody can move the Ister in Iberia.

About the Cynesii I dont know much , only that they were living in western Europe not in North Africa.

About king Geryon you can found more in my link.

About Atlantis it's meaning is The world.

and about Antartica I agree with you but this is another topic.

Thank you for your input.

To update my reference to the ancient northwest African civilization, I have done a little research on it and can add a few details. The main ruins are in West Mauritania, and are the remnants of a city called Lixus. Carthage once controlled it, but it predated their rule. Many African theorists point to evidence suggesting that a great ancient culture in that area had contact with the Americas. The Olmec heads is one such reference. My brother flew survey planes over Mauritania and told me that there are many large ruins throughout the desert in that area.

Verry interesting wath you found about northwest Africa
BlackGuardXIII.
But let's go back to our topic here.

I done some more reserch in the last few days and I found same more intersting facts about the way of how the Pillars of Hercules were come to be moved from they location on the Ister to the Gibraltar from the ancient times.
The quote is from a book of the XIX sec. by Barthold Georg Neibhur from the Google Books Library Project, call "Lectures on Ancient History from the Earliest Times to the Taking of Alexandria by Octavianus" page 144.

I was not been able to copy and past it this so I will tape them here:

"Nebucadnetzar continued the war against the Egyptians and Phoenicians, and by his exploits in those mighty wars he acquired a great reputation which in the east is imperishable. When the Greeks began to obtain informations about Eastern affairs they even exaggerated the fame of his achievements; and erroneously transferred to him all the accountos of the expeditions from the East to the distant West of Africa and Spain. But of this not a trace is to be found in the Oriental authorities: Berosus says nothing of this, "any more then Abydenus," and is no reason wathsever for ascribing to him those expeditions, as Megasthenes had done. The latter referred to him those mysterious tales, which may possibly belong to the ancient expeditons of the Egyptians to the distant West. Such obscure enterprises are decribed in the Punic accounts as undertakings of Melkarth (Hercules); but when the Greeks heard of them, they connected with them
the story of the expedition of they own Heracles to Iberia, describing him as
having reached the Alps and opened passages through them, while their own ancient and simpe Heracles confined himself to the twelve labours. The other features are additions, the incorporations of which from foreing traditions can easly by proved."

The second qoute from the same book, page 153 explains wath was the reason behaind for Drus Germanicus in my 3th post, for looking at the North Sea for The Pillars of Hercules:

"...the excelent Posidonius imagined that the Danubius and Ister were two different rivers, and represented the Danubius as flowing parallel with the Rhine into the Northen Sea, and the Ister flowing into the Black Sea; in this case the upper Danube was probably confunded with the Elbe."
"...Diodorus" as well, "stated that the Danube flow into the Northen Sea".

No wonder that with the level of geografical knowledge and confusion of the ancients were made such big mistakes. But is hard to understand how some are still perpetuated even today.

N. Densusianu seems to hold the same ideea when he wrote: "So, the miraculos Columns of Hercules, looked for by the Tyrians and Artemidor at the Medireranian straits, and by Drus Germanicus in the Northen Occean, have remained a geographical enigma during the whole of the Greek-Roman antiquity and until our days." - Prehistoric Dacia - page 231.

I can second this, there was a TV show about it, and there was even a natural history book about it aswell, link to an Atlantis Theory thread, but my first post states that story aswell.

Okay, I can address this.

The problem with this book is that the author wasn't entirely honest. He took only the evidences that proved his points and ignored other evidence. It's also several hundred years old and we've found a lot of material since then.

But in the main, the author started with an idea he wanted to prove and was not interested in having it disproven... that Dacia is the sole source for all the Greek mythology and that Pelegasians are the founders of Rome. He is staunchly Romanian and sees Romania as the cradle and founder of all things.

There's several problems with this view (and a lot of problems with his material, including the idea that neolithic man was around and watched the mountains being formed.)

Frau's book (moving Atlantis to still ANOTHER location) suffers from the same problem. He is convinced that Atlantis is in his beloved Sardinia and looked for evidence that he must be right... ignoring all other evidence.

However -- on to Gibraltar.

Yes, the ancient Greeks did not know what the world they lived in looked like. They believed that Europe and Africa (at least along the Nile) and the Middle East was pretty much The World and that there was a huge river that ran around the world. They also believed (until the time of Eratosthenes) that the Earth was flat.

Culturally, these accounts have several problems:
* they assume that nobody ever looked at landscape and made up tales about "how that mountain got there" (as in "see that jagged streak on the mountain? That's where Thor's hammer hit after he swung at an ice giant and missed!")
* they assume that no other civilization appropriated myths for their own use (as in "St Peter is actually buried HERE and the fingerbone you have of St. Peter is a fraud!")
* they assume that all the descriptions are accurate (go ask six people to describe a city. Do all the descriptions match?)
* they assume that texts which simply name the structure supports their contention.

The way we see the Pillars today is not the way they were. We think of the Earth as unchanging. It is not. There were forests and grasslands where we see houses and cities and there were no roads through many places. There were small farms and tiny villages and rivers have moved many times since that ancient time.

Polybius certainly thought that the Pillars were at the mouth of the Mediterranean when he wrote about his journeys in 146 BC:
links.jstor.org...(197607)71%3A3%3C237%3AANOPVT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q


I think I'd trust the books more if they were not so nationalistic... if they were not written to change our views that a nation or people hitherto unknown was the source of great ideas/great civilizations. Both interlink myths without making a good case for them being linked. Densusianu, for example, says that a Romanian folk hero "Iovan Iorgovan" is unquestionably Hercules... without giving any real evidence and then links selected Iovan tales (but not all of them) with Hercules to extend the story of this Greek hero.

To do a good study, you must start by knowing the culture and history as it's written. How did they describe things... known things (like Rome and how to get there and famous landmarks along the way) in the ancient world? How did they name mountains and so forth and did those locations vary according to where they lived? What references exist and what are the oldest written references (plays, etc)? What other cultures used the same name and at what era? What archaeological evidence is around (temples and artifacts and so forth)?

And finally, what does the mundane say about it... in other words, are there shipping manifestos and other records of commerce that mention it specifically?

We're seeing a lot of rewriting of history and geography by those who are disappointed that Atlantis hasn't been found (in spite of every bit of evidence pointing to it being made up by Plato, as Narnia was made up by C.S. Lewis.) I've even seen them repositioned to try and prove that Antarctica was Atlantis.

I think the case should be examined if only for curiosity's sake. But I don't think that the writings of nationalistic authors should be used to prop up the argument.

Hello Byrd

Thanks for your input on this most controversial topic

First of all I think that you are a bit too quik to question the honesty of N Densusianu before reading his whole book (wich, by the way, is not posible yet as the translation of it is still underway), and then make up your mind

Actually he was a man of great integrity and scolarship. He gather his material for this book during a span of a few decades serching in some of the great libraries of Europe including the Vatican as well as on the ground traveling extensivelly thruout Romania, the rest of Balcans and Italy. Along the way he colected the legends and mits of many places as well as the archeological data up to his time to have a broad overview

This book is not several hundreds yers old, as you asert - most probably an oversight on your part. It was publish in 1913, less then a hundred yers ago

It was not well received by the romanian scholars of his days (and is still the same today) and was not to be reprinted till the late '80s

It is verry unfortunated that the book is virtually unknown to the world at large by not beeing translated so far in a lunguge of world circulation

Even admiting your opinon about the book and his autor, wich personally I do not share, the dabate wich will have beeen created in the last hundred yers by i'ts verry controversial nuture, will only have been beneficial to the maters rised by N. Densusianu in his book, bringing up new ideas and interes about that long forgoted epoc

I will like now to bring up few more ideeas from N Densusianu's book about the place of the two Columns or Pillars of Hercules location

In the pt III Ch.XVI.8 according to Strabo and Herodotus the Tyrians of Phoenicia were the first people to look for the locatin of the Columns of Hercules at Oceanos potomas and were doing commerce with that region being paid in gold by the locals for they goods

Here is un interesting qote

According to Pliny (H. N. III. Proem), the locals from near the Columns of Hercules told that once upon a time, the mountains in this place were joined together on both sides, forming an uninterrupted chain, and that Hercules, by cutting an opening into these heights, had let the ocean, or the inland sea, to flow out, and in this way he had changed the appearance of the landscape (Mela, lib. I. 5, Cf. Diodorus Siculus, lib. IV. 18. 4)

The Pannonian plain, as we know, was covered by a fresh water sea until late in the Neolithic epoch. It stretched from the Eastern Alps to the Transylvanian Carpathians and its level was a lot higher than that of the Black Sea. The Carpathians and the Balkans were in those times directly connected and they barred the fresh water sea from the Black Sea.

N Densusianu is closing this section with this conclusion

Under no circumstance though, the ancient tradition about the cutting of mountains near the Columns of Hercules can be applied to the Gibraltar strait, between Europe and Africa. Here the width of the channel is 13km at its narrowest point, so this big waterway between Europe and Africa can’t be considered the result of a demolition work achieved by human genius and handiwork

An other interesting qote we find in Pt3 Ch-XVI.10

We find another important mention about the Columns of Hercules with the Roman grammarian Servius Maurus Honoratus (4th century a.d.), a lettered man with extraordinary knowledge of history and mythology. In the commentaries which he has written about Virgil’s Enaeid, he tells us the following: “according to what we read, the Columns of Hercules exist both in the Pontos region, and also in Hispania” (Virgilii Maronis opera). As we see here, Servius has added here “in Hispania also”, because this fiction had become consecrated, during many past centuries, on the Greek geographical documents, although the Romans, who had conquered Iberia and North Africa, had not found there any vestige, any tradition, about the Columns of Hercules

About the name of Iovan Iorgovan I found this note of N Densusianu at Part 3 Ch. XVII.10.

1. Hercules under the name of Iovan was known to the classical antiquity also, but the Greek and Latin authors preferred to use a simple translated form, instead of a popular traditional one. According to the Pelasgian-Greek theogony, Hercules was the son of Jove. So Homer (Iliad, XIV. 250) and Hesiod (Theog. v. 316) calls him simply “the son of Jove”, without adding the particular name of ‘Hrakles, although had had, according to legends, an infinite number of sons.

Virgil also calls him simply Iovis proles (Aen. VIII. 301). An old inscription in Abruzzo is dedicated to Herclo Iovio, another one in Rome to Herculi Iovio (Preller-Jordan, R. M. I. 1881, p. 187).

The new web adress is at: www.pelasgians.bigpondhosting.... com

Best wishess to you.

Dan

I happened to run into your conversations of Atlantis. Not an expert BUT,
Didn't Plato Identify as a far, far away land, outside of our Ocean, meaning the Mediterranean ??You could almost call it a continent that’s how big the Island is!! The Greeks were very familiar with the surroundings that existed in that time. They actually had very good knowledge of the surroundings Lands or Countries. On the other hand No one really knew
Much about the western world. For example The Iberians In reality No one knows where these People originated from. What ever is Out there, Its only theories no actual Facts of these people. The Iberians had a known Language and Writings that are at least 6000 years old !No actual connection to any other Language or Writings. They also had Deities , Gods that even thousands of years later the ROMANS adapted. Didn’t Hercules live around the same time As Noah's Flood??? Wasn’t it possible that The sea levels were much Lower ? I have read that the sea levels were Probably at least 500 Ft lower in Antiquity any Clue?? As this rush of Sudden water entered from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean I’m sure it would have ripped Open allot greater to what it is today. I’m Mean were not talking about a little trickle of water! I really think if Atlantis was near Greece
I’m sure Homer would have Identified it with some land close to it if not the Exact location!! Why start with a far, far away land, outside of our Ocean.
As this eruption Happened Probably Volcano or a huge earthquake (or Both) followed by a huge tsunami the sea levels rose and rushed into the Mediterranean and it was so great it effected even the Black sea!! and that’s how the Minoans on the Island of Crete also Disappeared with the Great sea level rising and probably also caused great devastation in the whole Mediterranean sea and All the surrounding Countries and Islands.
P.S. Please get Back to me with a reply of what you think????

I dont think Greek mythology included Noah.


Actually we are, the water level in ancient time was lower but it didnt suddenly raise over night. Still today the water level is changing.


The sea level didnt rise from the Thera explosion... We're talking about a tsunami. And I dont think it did much devestation either (well aside from the complete destruction of the Minoans), since we dont really have any wondrous stories of it.

[edit on 24-7-2007 by merka]

First: Noahs Ark was around 1900 BC and Hercules was around 1300-1200 BC Im not saying that Noah was in Greek Mythology what Im trying to Say is ,it all seemed to happen at the Same Time give or take a few years ,Im sure they werent all under the Same calendar, these are all aproximate dates that they give not the Actual Dates. And of course the Flood didnt happen over night, it took Years for the water levels to diminish.
Second: I'm sure Hercules was demeed as a God (Hero)by the time Plato (Circa 400-300BC) wrote his stories ! It is also said when Hercules went to Iberia to save Some Woman And before he saved her ,She Died, And so He buried her .
As He cryed and weeped for her he kept putting Stones On top of her grave and the Pyreness Mountains were Made.(a Little unbelievable NO ??)Obviously these are ALL Myths and Legends(farytales) In Our World . So Im figuring these are just explanations (Myths)of world Catastrophes with Gods doing the Task!!
Because in all reality thats the only way they were able to explain and make some sense of Something BIG that happened. NO???
Because for Atlantus to be so close to the Greek world they would have to know of such Place and they didnt ,only riddles ,meaning they really didnt know where the heck Atlantus was. Right???

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance , but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire... And so on !!
Why would he call it atlanticu Oceanus??
"The Sea People that Invaded the Minoans" No one knew who the "Sea People" were neither!! AND everyone from that Time especially the Well known Greeks, knew Exactly who everyone WAS and where they were From.
( NO????)

The term 'Pillars of Hercules' was a not uncommon place name on ancient maps. Many narrow straits with high headlands on either side were often called Pillars of Hercules at one time or another. Over time names change.

There was no central regulatory authority over geographic place names. Different mapmakers would give the same the same feature their own name on their maps, while a competing mapmaker would label the same feature with a different name on his maps. This makes written references to place names difficult to interpret if you do not know the source.