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Atheism vs. christianty

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posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 05:53 AM

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Enormous, yes, infinite even. But totally irrelevent and unrelated to my experiences.

You are looking at these particular experiences as if there is purpose behind them and then concluding there is purpose behind them. If the lightening story had not happended, but something else equally impressive had, you would have been telling that story instead.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
If Socrates was a man, and Socrates was gay, then does that mean all men are gay?

Invalid logic has nothing to do with this discussion.

I am saying nothing about purpose whatsoever. I am saying you cannot point out that out of the infinite possibilities of improbable occurences, some are bound to happen, so therefore any event which seems improbable is explicable as coincidence. Since you referred to my coworkers wife's deathbed message that the sign he would see was to be lightning, the more reasonable way to try to calculate the odds for it to happen is to gather all the deathbed messages uttered, and compare that number to the total that happened. In my experience, the odds are 100% in favour of the claim occuring as foretold. But this theoretical probability is meaningless without a much larger base from which to work. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, there are extremely few of these kind of messages. You can call it coincidence, and may be right. I can call it improbable in the extreme that it was coincidence, and I may be right. I just refuse to accept that your 'pretzel logic' proves anything whatever.

posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 01:26 AM

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
You can call it coincidence, and may be right. I can call it improbable in the extreme that it was coincidence, and I may be right. I just refuse to accept that your 'pretzel logic' proves anything whatever.

There's no contortion of logic going on. Considering that most of us witness highly improbable events from time to time, most of which have no discernable purpose, to claim that those that occasionally do appear to have purpose are not simply in that same catageory is special pleading.

If someone you don't know wins the lottery, we all understand that the math works out that someone is likely to win, and so we don't attribute it to gods or magic. But if I win the lottery, then by god it's a miracle!

posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 12:52 PM

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I am saying you cannot point out that out of the infinite possibilities of improbable occurences, some are bound to happen, so therefore any event which seems improbable is explicable as coincidence.

No no its not a coincidence. Its a certainty since one branch of the millions of possible branches is certain to happen given the experiment( or experience) takes place.

Why do you think someone always ends up winning the lotto eventually? Its a certainty for it to happen to SOMEONE..anyone.

Actually the lotto logic doesnt necessarily work in a simple way. The overall population has to consistently participate in order for the lotto to be won eventually. If only say 3 people in this world kept buying lotto tickets, odds are they may never win for eternity. But when one of the three does win..its still just a branch of possibilty they hit. No purpose. Just luck.

posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 06:52 PM

Originally posted by spamandham
Considering that most of us witness highly improbable events from time to time, most of which have no discernable purpose, to claim that those that occasionally do appear to have purpose are not simply in that same catageory is special pleading.
If someone you don't know wins the lottery, we all understand that the math works out that someone is likely to win, and so we don't attribute it to gods or magic. But if I win the lottery, then by god it's a miracle!

I have already posted my views that lottery wins are statistically expected, so just to be clear, I meant even if I was the winner. The type of thing I am describing is nothing like that. It is more like the Criss Angel show where he wrote down some numbers before the draw, for a radio show, then after the draw, the DJ opened the envelope, and the numbers matched. Sure, the fact that the numbers drawn and the numbers he wrote down beforehand matched could be coincidence. Every event could be coincidence, and I know that. As I said twice before, I have no idea what purpose there is for the existence of such phenomena. The purpose, if there is one, is beyond me. The effect on me that they have had is another story.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 07:14 AM

Originally posted by daedalas
To anyone who beleives in god or a higher power or whatever you want to call it, you can't follow what the church says or the bible for that matter.

You see, Im sure the church has good intentions (or maybe not) but, if you look at what shihulud said than you would see he makes a good point. There are so many versions of the bible out there and there are so many different relgions out there that are not similar in any way that nobody can deny that if god does exist, then his story has gotten mixed up along the way.

How can you be sure that the way the church tells you to worship god is the way he acually wants to be worshiped. And for that matter how do you even know that god is what the church makes him up to be. Given a few thousand years any story can be twisted any number of times in any number of ways.

I would counter this by saying it is the experience that makes the difference. The bible message is the same no matter which version you pick up. I can show you the salvation message in the JW bible, if you don't know what the message is and would like to, u2u me I’ll be happy to share. The problem with the youth of the world is there is no foundation in truth and only three generations removed from the WWII generation. They were for the most part a religious generation. Sure, you always have a few that will say I wasn't a believer in the foxhole but the majority was. I have spoken with a great deal of VFW members and they all say things like "I hoped to God never to have to through that again" or "is was the grace of God that we are alive today at all". These things make me to understand that they had a measure of faith that God existed and He was taking care of them. It was their experience that shaped the lives they would later live. I have had that experience too and it isn't just for the "crazy oneness Pentecostals" either. It is for everyone who wants it. If you don't think there is a God, try believing really hard and then be real about it. Find an Apostolic Pentecostal (UPCI or PAW) church and attend ONE service. I challenge ANYONE who does test this to not come back say they felt the presence of the almighty. It is a challenge that some won't do because they are biased to the extreme and cannot deny the ignorance of their hearts and their heads. Forget the denomination game, just get down to the deal between God and mankind. If later you get the Holy Ghost you got to witness here of your experience...deal? Y'see it is all about the experience. I mean the UFO guys have an experience, right? What about the "I saw Bigfoot" guys, an experience. So go have your experience (and honestly try to attend with an open mind) and return to tell. I'll be waiting...

[edit on 30/1/06 by OneGodJesus]

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 01:58 PM
i've attended an apostolic pentecostal church before, hell, i've attended a a gathering of every religion that i meets within 100 miles of me. it was while i was an agnostic, and trying to find truth. i found nothing in ANY organized religion, so i took nondogmatic, nondoctrinal theravada buddhism.

i went to the pentecoastal service about a year ago, and it was nothing special.

i'll attend another one on sunday, just to take you up on your offer, hokay?

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 02:14 PM

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
If only say 3 people in this world kept buying lotto tickets, odds are they may never win for eternity. But when one of the three does win..its still just a branch of possibilty they hit. No purpose. Just luck.

If so, I am very happy for my friend. That day, good luck was on his side. It had such an effect on him, his beaming face was something to see.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 02:31 PM
You must all learn my friends that you cannot ever defeat a christian or any other religous person in an arguement; because your ammo is logic - the point of religion is that it does not follow logic, hence your fighting a lost cause.

[edit on 30/1/06 by eternally_damaged]

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 02:44 PM

Originally posted by eternally_damaged
You must all learn my friends that you cannot ever defeat a christian or any other religous person in an arguement; because your ammo is logic - the point of religion is that it does not follow logic, hence your fighting a lost cause.

I am not an atheist. Still, I apply critical thinking, rational deduction, and logical reasoning in the process of analysing what I experience. In the scientific community there are many highly intellectual leaders who are also not atheists. They could hardly be accused of being without logic. They have used their logic to comprehend what they have observed. If others observe different things in their lives, then they are bound to arrive at different conclusions. But neither is more or less logical. It is a common assertion by atheists that they are the only ones who follow logic. I disagree.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 03:40 PM

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
It is a common assertion by atheists that they are the only ones who follow logic. I disagree.

I apologise for the confusion, I was not specifically targeting my post at atheists, just generally at the people who are debating with the believers. That was a mistake on my part for the misleading title

As myself being agnostic it would be foolish of me to suggest such a thing.

I appologise once again BlackGuardXIII

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 04:23 PM

Originally posted by eternally_damaged
You must all learn my friends that you cannot ever defeat a christian or any other religous person in an arguement; because your ammo is logic - the point of religion is that it does not follow logic, hence your fighting a lost cause.

Agreed. I try not to "fight" because there's no point. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. It just bothers me when someone lies in front of my face and tries to convince me that I'm a liar because I follow a logical path.

And then people on this website ask athiests why they participate in christian/or any other religious threads....funny..I thought this was a discussion forum.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 05:10 PM
'I try not to "fight" because there's no point. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. It just bothers me when someone lies in front of my face and tries to convince me that I'm a liar because I follow a logical path.'
isis

I am a liar. I don't fight either, and I am concerned only with my choices. In the end, we all make our own, so I will leave them to it. I don't mind folks trying to convince me to change my mind, but I do wish them luck.

ps, eternally damaged, no worries, I am quite close to agnosticism myself, and find they treat me very well, as have you.

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 05:17 PM
Blackguard..I hope you know that my last post wasnt directed towards you?

I'm glad you are not bothered by people trying to convert you but I follow the "live and let live" motto. Unfortunately thats not worth a penny around these boards...

Here I go ranting again.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 05:25 PM
Well, I did call you a liar, though I did it after your post. In matters such as spirituality, I never see me doing so. You are on the right path, imo, and I support your success. May we all get where we are going.
Amen.

posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 05:35 PM

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Well, I did call you a liar, though I did it after your post. In matters such as spirituality, I never see me doing so. You are on the right path, imo, and I support your success. May we all get where we are going.
Amen.

Havent found Osiris yet and li'l horus will have to be dealt with in the future...

Thanks! Wish you the same in life BlackguardXIII

posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 05:47 PM

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I have already posted my views that lottery wins are statistically expected, so just to be clear, I meant even if I was the winner.

The only difference between you winning the lottery and you witnessing highly unlikely events, is that you understand the odds behind the lottery. There is no reason to believe the other highly unlikely events have more significance than the lottery, simply because the odds are unknown.

posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 05:50 PM

Originally posted by eternally_damaged
You must all learn my friends that you cannot ever defeat a christian or any other religous person in an arguement; because your ammo is logic - the point of religion is that it does not follow logic, hence your fighting a lost cause.

[edit on 30/1/06 by eternally_damaged]

I disagree. I've witnessed it first hand several times. You can't convince someone whos' pigheaded, but most Christians (and other religious/nonreligious) are not pigheaded, they've simply never thought critically about their position before.

posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:40 PM

Originally posted by spamandham
I disagree. I've witnessed it first hand several times. You can't convince someone whos' pigheaded, but most Christians (and other religious/nonreligious) are not pigheaded, they've simply never thought critically about their position before.

Yet there are Christians that i know, who find the most convincing thing about Christianity to be the evidence and logic that they can use to justify it.

I may be wrong, but what I've seen tells me that most people in the world don't critically analyse their own thought processes and constantly question why they believe what they do. As far as Christianity goes, I find this to hold true - most ppl rely on faith, not on logic. But that dosen't mean that you can't find Christianity to be true through the use of logic.

I've seen that you can.

posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 10:26 PM

Originally posted by raingirl
As far as Christianity goes, I find this to hold true - most ppl rely on faith, not on logic.

Since you have previously asked me why I don't have faith, it seems fair at this point to ask you why you do.

posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 02:01 AM

Originally posted by spamandhamThe only difference between you winning the lottery and you witnessing highly unlikely events, is that you understand the odds behind the lottery. There is no reason to believe the other highly unlikely events have more significance than the lottery, simply because the odds are unknown.

Originally posted by eternally_damaged
You must all learn my friends that you cannot ever defeat a christian or any other religous person in an arguement; because your ammo is logic - the point of religion is that it does not follow logic, hence your fighting a lost cause.
[edit on 30/1/06 by eternally_damaged]

I disagree. I've witnessed it first hand several times. You can't convince someone whos' pigheaded, but most Christians (and other religious/nonreligious) are not pigheaded, they've simply never thought critically about their position before.

First, lottery point: What are the odds of lightning hitting that church in my lifetime? What are the odds of it hitting that church the day that a funeral is held for someone who told their widower before dying, that lightning would be a sign for them? What are the odds of it hitting at 1:00 PM that day (on the dot), the starting time for that funeral? Its simply unknown allright, spam, because it is in the googleplex times googleplex to one range.
As for the choice between being illogical, pigheaded, and lacking critical thinking skills (stupid), I am torn. I am leaning towards illogical, but stupid is tempting. Being neither an atheist nor Christian, I have exhausted my knowledge of these topics. Blessings

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