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JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's

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posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 01:15 AM
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- French author Emile Zola

"If you shut up the truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way."


Memory

Memory is something that changes over time. This is the main reason why statements are made of any crime scene as soon as possible after the event. A fresh record for prosterity. Memory also suffers from "interference" after an event. That interference quite often comes in the form of what others are saying about the event, what the Government and Newspapers are also saying. This is why in court case we often hear the line. "may I refer the witness to their original statement". This is because it has been found that the original statement did not suffer much adverse "interference" and was a Fairly accurate record of events.
Having said this short term memory can be affected by traumatic events. The mind has the amazing ability to shut down and "fog" over when confronted with horrific events, details will not be so clear and time frames of events will often be difficult to collaborate between witnesses. This type of memory interference is different to the adverse outside influence coming from later recalls of the events which have been tainted with such things as ridicule of what the witness has stated, confusion over what the TV and Newspapers have stated, disinformation spreads and general discussion of the event with others.
The short Term memory recollections are a fresh and untainted "record" of events witnessed, but sometimes with details missed in crucial parts and not spoken of due to the brain shut down mechanisms. These are the points that often witnesses bring up at later times, "oh I forgot, this happned too". At later times the story can grow out of proportion into something mixed between truth and fantasy. I say "can" because they are many people who retain memory better than others and can accurately recite events to the point years afterwards, as there are other people who are not affected by a brain shut down or fogging over, clouding of short term memory of events.
Both these points are the reason why in legal circles that the first deposition/affidavit and statement are not taken in a court room on their own ground. The witness is re questioned with often more details emerging and at times tainted details as spoken of above are entered into the record.
Then we look at bias and embellishment, once again a good reason why courts hold so much stock in first accounts by witnesses. Bias and embellishment usually occurs after the event when the witness makes their role in the event "stronger" than it was and "to make it sound better". First accounts can be embellished if a witness purposefully wishes to hide a truth or to hide guilt.
For these reasons, the legal system does not rely on one single persons testimony to achieve conclusion. As many witness statements are taken as possible.
In the JFK assassination debate and research there are many theories and ideas, witness statements vary from person to person and each person's own accounts vary over time. Films and photographic evidence does not match with each other and certainly do not match with witness accounts. Witnesses have come out of the "woodwork" so to speak, over the years to add to an already growing story which has become much less of he truth than when the event first occured.

Department Of Misinformation

Then there is the Department of Misinformation. In the JFK debate and research the Department of Misinformation "DoM" or Department of Disinformation "DoD" has been kept busy throwing in voices of dissent to opinions put on the table for debate greatly over the years, sidetracking people who "are on to something", discrediting those same researchers, personally discrediting people in any area they can, bringing in "experts" to "argue" and stifle people's opinions and to twist and turn to story further into chaos and confusion.
DoM will attack weaker points of an argument and sidetrack debate away from the main points made by the person in the first place. Alinksy's rulebook says only argue a persons view on points you can win. Opinions and theories are often attacked with venom, with viscious personal attacks that leave the person they are directed to, stuptdefied, bamboozled, violated and wondering whether they should have bothered speaking out in the first place, other subjects and areas of the persons life and views are bought into play for the express point of discrediting.
DoM agents are trained in the "Art of War" friendships and alliances are made in order to glean the persons views and standpoints, only to rip the person to shreds at a later time. If anything is spoken of by the person believing themselves to be a victim of DoM they are further ridiculed and dismissed as paranoid. The DoM is expert in their field.
People are called nutjobs, idiots, told their research is stupid, ideas are silly or stupid and dismissed with ridicule, told they are way out on a limb, told they are paranoid and much more.
The Delphi technique and other group control mechanisms are deployed in abundance. Divide and conquer, expose weak spots, destroy reputations. If those tactics do not work then more sinister methods are employed to Shut the person up. For these reasons, researchers turn secretive, not trusting others and careful of their words for fear the DoM will rip them to shreds.
A visit around the various groups forums and websites regarding the JFK assassination is a fascinating journey of different theories and disinformation - misinformation.
This misinformation and disinformation has been designed to keep people going in circles and to keep people away from the truth, instead of one conspiracy theory we find a minefield of red herrings.

Some of First accounts by eywitnesses taken on the day - not including the secret service and police testimony

The reason why this particular thread is dealing with the first accounts by witnesses should be fairly obvious. Oswald was arrested shortly after the crime and from that moment "an official line" was indellibly stamped on memories of all witnesses, in fact most of America and the world. Witnesses then become further biased and the offical ine and their memories start to meld together, forming a sort of half truth. As previously stated witness models and tests throughout time have told of "the chinese whispers" phenomena and the fact that no two memories are the same. We know that 40 first account witnesses will have slighlty different stories. Where their stories become interesting is where two or more accounts match.
We have a strange inconsistency with the Warren Commision. As previously discussed here and in other posts, the actual amount of witnesses close to the assassination is extremely low. The many articles and reports on the day talk of the route being covered by thousands and thousands of well wishers.....and then we get to Dealey Plaza. According to the photographic evidence, there was hardly any people in Elm Street to witness the assassination. Very few, too few. Why was this? According to reports no officials were assigned in Dealey Plaza and yet there was barely anyone there to witness the assassination as compared to the rest of the route.
I know for one if I went to see the president that Day, Dealey Plaza would have been my first spot to head to after I got to the area and scouted around looking for a good vantage point. Logic states if there is not many people down there, one would get a much better view than being crammed in like a can of sardines as was Houston and Main Streets.
but no, we have a few people up on the triple underpass bridge, probably less than ten and down on Elm Street itself once again we have well less than fifty witnesses spread down through the street after the corner and that includes the few we can see running in the "films". When the headshot took place, in the immediate vicinity we have the following. Mr Newman, Mrs Newman, children x 2, Mr and Mrs Chism and child, Mary Moorman, Charles Brehm and son, two ladies near the Newmans??, two photographers running near moorman, a family group down from Moorman, the Babushska lady, Umbrella dude, dark complected man, steps man, maroon man(on steps)a man and woman down near underpass, fallover man near Moorman and the family group, 2nd darkcomplected man sitting next to steps man and one or two others down near underpass, oh and mr Zapruder up on his block with his "employee" Orville Nix and "Muchmore". There were a sprinkling of others behind and one or two may be missed but according to the films and photos of the day, these were the main witnesses to the assassination. Not many at all.
One would think as a side note that these people would be immediately identified and immediate witness statements taken. Well a few were, but oddly enough many of those people have never been identified and never come foward to make any type of statement. But the part that stands out the most is the number of these witnesses mentioned above that did not get called to testify at the Waren Commission.


www.jfk-info.com...
Although Jean was never requested to testify further in Washington, at least she was included in the fifteen volumes of testimony, mainly because of Lane's reference to her. Many other important eyewitnesses who were overlooked by the Warren Commission's staff included: Mary Woodward and her three colleagues; Charles Brehm and his son; Carolyn Arnold; Hugh Betzner, Jr.; Jack Bell; John and Marvin Chism; Ruby Henderson; Mary Hollies; Sam Kinney; Glenn Bennett; Mary Ann Moorman; Mr. and Mrs. W. Newman; Orville Nix; J.C. Price; Norman Similas; Marilyn Sitzman; Malcolm Summers; Richard Carr; Marvin Robinson; Carolyn Walthers; and Beverly Oliver (if she was indeed the "Babushka Lady").


The question to ask is why were these people not called to testify? These are valuable eyewitnesses to an assassination that is possibly high treason. Without these eyewitness accounts added into the Warren Commision as evidence, it effectively renders the Warren Commsion to be biased and of no benefit to the investigation at all. In fact it renders the Warren Commision a completely useless fluffball. Fortunately we have some of those witnesses who were not called with affidavits made on the day of the assassination as follows.

www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...
www.jfk-online.com...

Witness First Accounts and Zapruder Film and other films/photos

When looking at the first statements made on the day of the assassination we find a few "consistencies" of value worth noting that do not match up to Zapruder and or other photos and films of the day. This includes some of the witnesses testimony that were not called to the Warren Commision. We find inconsistencies as with most witness statements we know are going to be in there, including the number of shots fired and the direction they came in.
First we will look at a few consistencies in first account statements that should be examined and pondered when approaching the JFK Assassination debate. A major point came to light in the examination of the first accounts and that was of Jackies and Johns movements before and during the assassination to quote


John Chism
I was standing with my wife and three year old boy, we were directly in front of the Stemmons Freeway sign, as the motorcade rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm.
When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, The President, sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side. At this point, I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over in her lap, and then lay down over him as if to shield him.
(Footnote - Mayet) Note above this is first shot second shot hadn't come.
And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired.
At this point, I looked behind me, to see whether it was a fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people running for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.
And at this point, I turned back around and saw the motorcade beginning to speed up, and everybody was laying down but the driver, of course. I didn't notice where it went.
My wife and I began seeking cover, and we went to our car, and then we told the policeman about what we knew.


- So we have Mr Chism saying that the President was standing up in the car waving to everyone until he was in front of Mr Chism until the first shot made him fall back in his seat.
- We also have Mrs Kennedy standing up to pull Mr Kennedy down onto her Before the second shot.
- The driver turns back at the same time as the second shot?????
- Chism notes alot of people running for cover behind the embankment.


Mrs Chism
I was with my husband and three year old child, we were standing at the corner where the sign says "Stemmons Freeway" to the right.
As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left. The Presidents wife immediately stood over him, and she pulled him up, and lay him down in the seat, and she stood up over him in the car. The President was standing and waving and smiling at the people when the shot happened.
Note once again this was the first shot
And then there was a second shot that I heard, after the President's wife had pulled him down in the seat. It came from what I thought was behind us and I looked but I couldn't see anything.
The two men in the front of the car stood up, and then when the second shot was fired, they all fell down and the car took off just like that. After the motorcade went by, after that, I jumped up and headed for my car, we were parked up on the freeway. A police patrolman came up where we were, and we told him what we say.


- Once again Mrs Chism speaks of the President standing before the first shot.
- She also confims the statement of Jackie standing up and pulling John down in the seat before the second shot
- mentions the two men in the front of the car standing up and then falling down after the second shot.


Mrs Newman
My husband Billy, myself and our children were standing about halfway between the corner of Elm and Houston and the underpass. We were the last people in line going toward the underpass. When President Kennedy's car was about ten feet from us. I heard a noise like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car. When I first saw and heard all of this, I thought it was all of a joke. Just about the time President Kennedy was right in front of us, I heard another shot ring out, and the President put his hands up to his head. I saw blood all over the side of his head. About this time Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and he kind of lay over to the side kind of in her arms. Then my husband, Billy, said it is a shot. We grabbed our two children and my husband lay on one child and I lay on the other one in the grass. We started to get up and then all of a sudden we lay back down, [sic] I don't know what it was but another shot may have been fired that caused us to lay back down. Everyone started running back toward the brick structure. We got up and went back there. Everyone was saying,


- Gayle Newman carries the similiar testimony to the Chism as far as the reactions by Jackie go. The only difference is the shot sequence. Mrs Newman says it was the third shot that was the head shot. The Chisms mentioned two shots only.
- Mrs Newman mentions President putting his head in his hands after the first shot. This is not seen in the Zap film or any other film.
- Mrs Newman mentions the President laying over on Jackie in her arms on his side.


Mr Newman
Today at about 12:45 pm I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President's car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street. We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot [sic]. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head. Then he fell back and Governor Connally was holding his middle section. Then we fell down on the grass as it seemed we were in direct path of fire. It looked like Mrs. Kennedy jumped on top of the President. He kinda [sic] fell back and it looked like she was holding him. Then the car sped away and everybody in that area had run upon [sic] top of that little mound. I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.


- We have Mr Newman also saying the President was standing up
- Mrs Kennedy jumped on top of the president
- Mrs Kennedy was holding him
- Mr Newman also mention being in a group of people but yet according to the photo below, he was pretty much alone with his wife and children and not in a gropup at all.



Other Witnesses


Jean Newman
I was standing right on this side of the Stemmons Freeway sign, about half-way between the sign and the edge of the building on the corner. I was by myself, there were other people around watching the motorcade. The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.
By this time, the motorcade never did stop, and the President fell to his left and his wife jumped up on her knees, I believe it was, in the back of the car on her knees, I couldn't say that for sure. And I realized then it had been a shot. I looked in the car and she was on her knees, and he wasn't even visible in the car. I looked around then, and everyone was running every which way, I don't know why I didn't run, I just stood there and backed up and looked around to see if I could see anything, but I saw no one whatever with anything that resembled a gun or anything of that kind.
I just heard two shots. When it happened, I was just looking at the President and his wife, and when she jumped up in the car, I had my vision focused on her, and I didn't see anything else, about the others in the front of the car.


-Mentions president falling to the left.
- Does not mention how John is positioned but does mention Jackie jumping up on her knees, not that she would be able to tell from behind whether Jackie was standing or just on her knees. The fact remains this is not what Zapruder shows.


Holland
I was standing on top of the triple underpass and the President's Car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over and I looked toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off.


- Mentions Jackie jumping up to get to pesident after the firs shot
- After first shot president slumped over.
- Mentions after the first shot the secret service in the car raising up with a machine gun.


Betzner

Then I saw a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car
I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped.
I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car.
www.jfk-online.com...


Then we get to steps man.. Mr Hudson


Hudson
This day a was sitting on the front steps of the sloping area and about half way down the steps. There was another man sitting there with me. He was sitting on my left and we were both facing the street with our backs to the railroad yards and the brick building. At the same time the President's car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat. I do not know who this other man was that was sitting beside me. In our conversation he talked about having a hard time finding a place to park. He also talked about working somewhere over on Industrial Blvd. This man said Lay down and we did. I definately [sic] heard 3 shots. The shots that I heard definately [sic] came from behind and above me. When I laid down on the ground I laid on my right side and my view was still toward the street where the President's car had passed.


Hudsons testimony on that first day is interesting because of a couple of points. One major one being He was sitting down
At no time in that first statement does he say he was standing up. This contradicts all of the photos taken at that time of the sequence and also contradicts the nix film and the muchmore film.

Then we come to Jean Hill, one of the most interesting witnesses of the assassination. Mrs Hill was made to look a fool for saying that jackie and John were looking at a small dog on the seat beside them. Thee was no dog so this went far to discredit Mrs Hill. What did not come to light until 25 years later was that in fact there was a small stuffed animal dog that was on the seat between the president and his wife that a well wisher had given the first lady.


Jean Hill
The Presidents [sic] car came around the corner and it was over on our side of the street. Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the president and Jackie in the back seat and they were looking at a little dog between them. Just as the president looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackies [sic] lap and she fell across his back and said "My God he has been shot". Three was an instant pause between the first two shots and the motorcade seemingly halted for an instant and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away. I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting". I looked across the street and up the hill and saw a man running toward the monument and I started running over there.


- She states she ran across Elm Street up the Grassy Knoll and yet Bond pictures show her first sitting, and then standing in position on Dealey Plaza for over a minute after the shooting, long after other others had run up the Knoll.
- President grabbed his chest and fell over Jackie
- A very interesting note here is that Jean Hills states the Presidential car was over to the left. Most Photos and Zapruder show the limo to be in the middle of three lanes. Except the Bronson Image above, the Bronson image shows the Limo also apparently in the left lane.


Moorman
Mrs. Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all. After the pictures I took were developed, the Picture [sic] of President Kennedy showed him slumped over. When the pictures were developed, they came out real light. These pictures have been turned over to Officers [sic] investigating this incident.


-Two shots Jackie Jumped up
-As the motorcade came towards me I took two pictures...Just where are those two pictures

We will be presenting a detailed thread on Jean Hills evidence over the years later in the series.

Jim's Zapruder Photo "doodles" All The Single Zapruder Frames

As is now obvious there are many inconsistenices betwen the film and the witness first accounts. Some of this may be accounted for but however, on a holistic approach, it does not add up. We have already shown some inconsistenices in our Green man thread in Skunk Works. Zapruder film is full of them.
What we ask of you when viewing these photos below is to examine them with an open mind and compare what has been marked with the witness evidence. The "face" on the collar could well be the true picture, as the witnesses above DO speak of JFK laying down on Jackie. See where things do not add up in the films, lines that don't match, shadow images and more. There is an mpi version of the film and it can also be found at. Some stills of "oddities" can be seen below.
www.rejectz.com...









Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."


Conclusion



In conclusion we are asking people to examine this for themselves. Compare these first witness accounts with the Zapruder film and other photos and films taken of the day. Inconsistencies seen in the film and photos are corroborated by more than one witness. The Chisms and Mr Newman all state the president was standing up. Many of them state jackie jumped or stood up and more than one say that occured after the first shot and before the second. Many say the president slumped over to the left or even was covered by Jackie when she jumped up and more than one say this was after the first shot and before the second More than one mention guns in or around the presidential car. Individual points can be argued and witness torn apart but overall these statements remain preserved in their entirety as public record. as a bigger picture, these affidavits contradict the Zapruder film and other films and photographs of the day.

As previously mentioned many of these witnesses didnt get called to the Warren Commsions to note of importance - the Chisms and Newmans, even though their account is of utmost importance to the assassination investigaion. But in one way because hey were not called to the Warren Commission the information we have is not tainted by latter memory interference. Indeed had they been called they may even have remembered some titbits they missed in the affidavits. As also previously mentioned there is many statements not here of people still unidentified in Elm Street that day.

We will deal with secret sevice, police evidence and time comparisons of each individual evidence in a later thread of our series on the JFK assassination.

First Witness Acounts - Affadavits
Maynards Film Hoax Thread
The Green man Thread
Valhalls LBJ Conversation Thread
Valhalls Conspiracy Master's Analysis of The Zapruder Film
John Costella - The Great Zapruer Hoax
Most of the Photos and Films
JFK assassination Films and Photo Links
JFk Assassinaion Theory Website - The Green man


By Mayet and Jimstradamus


[edit on 20-1-2006 by Mayet]

Mod Edit: New External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 20-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]




posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 02:32 AM
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Great topic. Surprisingly enough I've never even considered the film to be a fake or anything of the sort.

I think that has been the longest post Ive read completely through. Very interesting, cant wait to read opposing arguments



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:23 AM
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Well thank you. I am glad it was interesting enough to read all the way through and I hope it sparked some food for thought.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:45 AM
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The president was standing in the car? Ridiculous. It's hard enough for a healthy person to do this for any short length of time, never mind JFK with his bad back. He wouldn't stand up in the car...he would sit and relax and wave at the crowd as he drove by (as every film and photo taken shows). If any witness said he was standing, they have issues with their memories.

And there was a secret service agent lurking on the floor of the limo with a machine gun and popped his head up at some point and then got back down on the floor? That testimony needs to be thrown out because that witness was on mushrooms!



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:52 AM
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Of all the doodles so far, this one is my favorite



they're taking a shadow on Jackie's lapel, the crossmember of the convertible and a waving hand and making a tie out of it.

I'm going to go look for the site of the guy that does this with Mars photos. He doodles on them and finds entire cities. I think the link to that site would be revelant because this type of doodling has got to eventually turn into some type of genre.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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I'm glad you know so much of what jfk would or wouldn't do. Unfortunately for that dismissal is the following, taken from JFK's earlier trip to Hawaii. Maybe you should do some reading on the subject?

Same limo btw. I think the trip was in August, I amy be wrong there its been a while since I studied that trip.





and to be so judgemental of people who swore statements by calling them "on drugs" ... these people are married with children.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:01 AM
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Here you go!

www.kksamurai.com...

enjoy!



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Of all the doodles so far, this one is my favorite



they're taking a shadow on Jackie's lapel, the crossmember of the convertible and a waving hand and making a tie out of it.

I'm going to go look for the site of the guy that does this with Mars photos. He doodles on them and finds entire cities. I think the link to that site would be revelant because this type of doodling has got to eventually turn into some type of genre.


Valhall you have also doodled on jfk photos to illustrate a point you were making. Jim's doodling is very relevant when tied in with what the witnesses say in first accounts. That is too say John was laying down on jackie for one.

I too like that doodle but I like this one better




posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:14 AM
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I'm glad you know so much of what jfk would or wouldn't do.


One point for you. Okay...so JFK stood in the limo in Hawaii. He was able to do so with his bad back. Fantastic. He still DIDN'T stand in the limo anywhere around Dealy Plaza. Do you have any pictures of him standing in the limo in Dallas? I just find your research, though quite extensive, to be full of holes.

I've seen every film from Dealy plaza and every photo (at least what's available) and there is not a single frame or photo of JFK standing.....sorry, those witnesses were wrong. I'm sure there was plenty they were right about....but this is not one of them!

Question: Who would give a rats behind if the president was standing or not? What would be ANYONE'S motive to hide that the president was standing? Seriously.....there's a whole conspiracy going on. Shots being fired from all over and someone (in your world) decides, "Oh my God, we have to hide the fact that the president was standing up. If the WORLD knew about this, well it would just blow the lid off the whole conspiracy. Why, if the world knew about the president standing, they would soon know about all the shooters all over the plaza (and their names of course and who they work for). We better doctor up this film and make sure the president is sitting the whole time....Whew, good thing we caught this when we did."


Ridiculous.....

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Here you go!

www.kksamurai.com...

enjoy!


Interesting link, some valid points and some speculation there. As the dude in your link says, its all speculation.

I particularly like the analysis of Saturns moon Titan myself.

But isn't Mars rather, way off topic for a JFK thread, or was that link a dig at the doodles?



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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Actually, that's not true. I don't believe I've ever doodled on a JFK photo. Drawing a marking arrow to what you're wanting some one to look at is not doodling, it's marking.

But I'm getting my feet wet right now. My first official doodle. And I have to agree with you that the one you just posted is the best of all, because Jackie is wearing a Yoshi hand puppet! And Mario Brothers hadn't even come out yet!



external image



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Ridiculous.....



Ridiculous to you but then you did say you took the photos and films as evidence over what the witnesses who were there actually said

and we are saying the photos and films are not accurate.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Actually, that's not true. I don't believe I've ever doodled on a JFK photo. Drawing a marking arrow to what you're wanting some one to look at is not doodling, it's marking.


Ok so we will call Jims doodles "markings" from now on then.


But I'm getting my feet wet right now. My first official doodle. And I have to agree with you that the one you just posted is the best of all, because Jackie is wearing a Yoshi hand puppet! And Mario Brothers hadn't even come out yet!


Damn Val, You made me splutter my coca cola all over my monitor when I read that one.


Well there was a puppet in the car, lambchop,who know she may have been waving at the crowds with it and that could be why JFK has his hands up to his throat too, to ward off the evil sock puppet...



[edit on 20-1-2006 by Mayet]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:39 AM
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Ridiculous to you


Ridiculous to everyone. Tell me: 1. What would be the motivation to hide that the president was standing? With everything else that was going on...what purpose would hiding that the president was standing serve?

and 2. Do you honestly believe their was a secret service member hiding on the floor of the limo with a machine gun?


When I read that machine gun bit...I almost wet myself!



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:54 AM
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Yes its exciting isn't it, I can't say's as how ive near wet myself yet though

In order for you to dismiss the witness statements as ridiculous then I'd say you would have to know exactly what did go on that day to 100 percent accuracy

see we have a flip a coin option here.

The witness statements are true and correct
the wtiness statements are false and a lie
some witness statements are false and a lie

The photos and films are real untouched and unedited
the photos and films are edited and doctored
some photos are edited and doctored.



[edit on 20-1-2006 by Mayet]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 08:03 AM
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Mayet...quit dodging my questions. Whatever witnesses have said and whatever pictures have been doctored or not...answer my two questions.

and my third:

3. What, in your world, is that image supposed to be that Valhall drew green around?

Answer the questions....otherwise, your dodging them proves to me that you find this as ridiculous as everyone else!



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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im going to check this when i get home, ill edit this post after doing so.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 08:27 AM
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Ridiculous to everyone.


I don't recall the vote that said you speak for everyone???


Tell me: 1. What would be the motivation to hide that the president was standing? With everything else that was going on...what purpose would hiding that the president was standing serve?


well I can't say i can read your mind or anyone elses who was involved back then. So umm I would have to theorize..

ok well here's one wild guess, if the president was standing, and he got hit in the back and it exited his neck, then it would make it difficult for that bullet to turn a complete upside down angle and to hit conally in the chest. So that would make the magic bullet that was the findings of the Warren Commission even more ridiculous to use your words, than it already is. If you wish to ask questions on what exactly happened, theres a few dead people out there that know for 100 perecnt sure, maybe a few alive and perhaps a psychic may help your cause.


and 2. Do you honestly believe their was a secret service member hiding on the floor of the limo with a machine gun?


I do not recall ever stating that, no................. actually, I can't says as I have ever said that.



Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
3. What, in your world, is that image supposed to be that Valhall drew green around?

Once again best to ask Valhall that one, I think she said it looked very much like a sock puppet.


Answer the questions


yes Sir, I always follow orders.....not, a please would have been nice.

.

...otherwise, your dodging them proves to me that you find this as ridiculous as everyone else!


honey, there you go again speaking for everyone else. You do appear rather vehemently opposed to the points covered here but speaking for everyone else is kinda taking the mandate a bit to far.
and I also don't recall a requirement to answer to orders given so rudely without a please, either.

see I'm not here to tell you that I know unequivicably with certainty how the president was standing, or sitting or picking his nose, or warding off an evil sock puppet with almost unhuman arm positions, I'll let the witnesses do that for themselves. I am not here to say what the secret service was doing on the floor, on the roof, shooting guns, playing cowboys or falling asleep on the job, once again i will let the witnesses do that themselves.

I do recall speaking in my original post of the dinformation and misinformation methods that have made it almost impossible to discern the real truth.

This thread is about the witness accounts, and how they do not match the photos and films of the day, especially Zapruder but then you have already stated that the witness accounts are ridiculous, they were on mushrooms along with calling our theories ridiculous and before you accuse me of being on mushrooms too, I can assure you that I did not have mushrooms for dinner tonight, I had Dominoes pizza with pepperoni and olives, no mushrooms and I ate it down at the lagoon watching the fire twirlers dance with my family.

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Mayet]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 08:46 AM
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Mayet, Heres my analysis, and it goes like this.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of DIFFERENT accounts of events that happened that day. All the witnesses seem to have different stories.

So either they are all wrong, or only one story is correct, and since we know JFK was assinated, we must assume that the later is the case. There is only 1 true story. So which witness is telling the exact account of what happened, when we find that out, we find the truth.

Train



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 08:58 AM
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Warren Commission even more ridiculous to use your words, than it already is.


The Warren Commission report is ridiculous...more ridiculous is kind of redundant. It either is or isn't ridiculous....and it is ridiculous. The president was never standing. That is ridiculous. A machine gun toting secret service man in the limo is ridiculous. Your photos which you choose not to explain what they are supposed to show are also ridiculous. The whole book you wrote is ridiculous and you have no logic to back any of it up.

When you're asked questions to corroborate your story, you dodge them because you have no answers...instead you deflect by asking more questions......

This is nonsense and I'm bored and tired of it.....




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