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Islam's Mahdi

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posted on Jan, 19 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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I am extremely interested in Islamic eschatology and their Hadith legends. I would love if a Muslim would explain to me this figure since I don't have that many objective sources on who this Mahdi individual is (aside from your Hadiths and websites from other religion's standpoints). Please explain to me your Mahdi's supposed future campaign in favour of your Religion and way of life. I would be grateful


[edit on 19-1-2006 by Nakash]




posted on Jan, 19 2006 @ 10:13 PM
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You know as much as we do. Everything we know is from Hadith



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 03:33 AM
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everything we know is from the hadith


and hence lies the problem. There IS no mahdi, coming to save muslims. Jesus (pbuh) is not coming back as our saviour.

There is no mention of this at all in the Quran, and i think that if something as huge as this was going to happen, it would be in there.

Muslims place way too much emphasis on a collection of writings which were compiled at least 150 years after the death of Muhammad (Pbuh)

For those who do believe in this, how do you satisfy your assumption that Jesus will come down, even though you know Muhammad was the last prophet?

This to me, smacks of christianity (no offence to christians). THat we are ultimately relying on a saviour to get rid of the evil in this world, has got to be one of the saddest things. Maybe we should start trying ourselves?



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 04:16 AM
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good point geek 101, it's probably all some sort of big metaphor, ie as with the antichrist, he is supposed to have one eye and be a giant and all sorts of things, but its more likely that it is a metaphor, perhaps for a system posing as God, ie. many would believe it is America, look at its domination of the world. however many of the signs that come around these prophecies seem to be appearing.

what do you mean about:
"For those who do believe in this, how do you satisfy your assumption that Jesus will come down, even though you know Muhammad was the last prophet?"



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 05:00 AM
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sal88

hi

thats intersting what you wrote about the antichrist having one eye, because this is what "djall" (muslim antichrist) is supposed to have (according to hadith)

Anyway, like i said, i dont put much faith in the hadith collections. For someone who believes in the Quran being the word of God (which i do), i would assume GOd would have wrote about something so important.

What i meant by that comment, is that muslims believe that Muhammad (Pbuh) was the last prophet. So if Jesus (pbuh) was to come back to earth, that would make HIM the last prophet, thereby contradicting one of the core tenets of islamic faith.

peace



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 05:40 AM
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Originally posted by geek101
thats intersting what you wrote about the antichrist having one eye, because this is what "djall" (muslim antichrist) is supposed to have (according to hadith)
lol i meant dajaal, was just being liberal and giving a 'inter faith dialogue' feel to the post lol



What i meant by that comment, is that muslims believe that Muhammad (Pbuh) was the last prophet. So if Jesus (pbuh) was to come back to earth, that would make HIM the last prophet, thereby contradicting one of the core tenets of islamic faith.
took me a while to think about it but that does raise a good point. Does the Qur'an actually say he is the last prophet forever? or so far? And what will Jesus be when he comes back? a prophet/saviour or something else?



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:49 AM
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sal88 wrote:
lol i meant dajaal, was just being liberal and giving a 'inter faith dialogue' feel to the post lol


lol....you had me wondering there. I was either about to rethink my position or start thinking that the hadith collectors had been nicking bits from christianity




sal88 wrote:
took me a while to think about it but that does raise a good point. Does the Qur'an actually say he is the last prophet forever? or so far? And what will Jesus be when he comes back? a prophet/saviour or something else?


i just looked at the arabic word used, and it is a derivative of the word "khatm", which means, i believe, finish, end, conclusion.
So Muhammad would be the end/conclusion of the prophets.
And whether or not Jesus would come back with more prophecies, he is STILL a prophet, and so him coming back would be a contradiction to Muhammad being the "khatm" of Prophets.

There is a verse in the Quran, where God tells us of the time Jesus (pbuh) was being crucified and various translators have interpreted the verse as

"Behold! Allah said: "O jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme" (3:55)

In other words, no translator has translated the arabic word "mutawaffeeka" (root word..."wafat") as its proper meaning, which is "death/take away soul"

I personally believe they have mistranslated this word, so it fits in with the idea of Jesus being "raised up" by God, and therefore, being in a position to come back and save the world.

BUt thats just my 2 cents (or 2 pence)






[edit on 20-1-2006 by geek101]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 09:04 AM
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On the mahdi, I beleive that amoung the sunni the mahdi is some one who is to come and set things straight, but amoung the Shia, who vernate Ali, the mahdi already came, his name was Muhammed al Mahdi or some such, he was a person descended, in one way or antoher from Ali and Mohammed, and he was the 12th Imam, the last imam, from over a thousand years ago. He never died, but was 'occulted', hidden, whisked away into the sky, and he will return at the end of the world, and after him jesus, also whisked away and saved from death, will reappear and end the world.


Originally posted by geek101
Muslims place way too much emphasis on a collection of writings which were compiled at least 150 years after the death of Muhammad (Pbuh)

When was the first koran known to be compiled anyways?


For those who do believe in this, how do you satisfy your assumption that Jesus will come down, even though you know Muhammad was the last prophet?

Why is the standard answer, that jesus didn't die, he was merely whisked away, not satisfactory?


This to me, smacks of christianity (no offence to christians). THat we are ultimately relying on a saviour to get rid of the evil in this world, has got to be one of the saddest things.

Isn't there a tradition that every century there is a reformer that will come about to get rid of all the innovations and additions that have been put into the religion? Perhaps this is only amoung the Shia.


and so him coming back would be a contradiction to Muhammad being the "khatm" of Prophets

How? Because he comes back temporarly after him? Mo would still be the Final word on prophecy though no?
An interesting question would be what happens if islamic jesus comes back and trys to change things away from what Mo said.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 11:34 AM
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posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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Nygdan wrote
When was the first koran known to be compiled anyways?


I could be wrong, but i assume and believe that it was written and compiled as the revelations were given. (one of my reasons for this, is that the first verse, chronologically, was "read! in the name of thy Lord"

Either that, or it was compiled during the life of MUhammad (pbuh)


Nygdan wrote
Why is the standard answer, that jesus didn't die, he was merely whisked away, not satisfactory?


Because in the Quran, the arabic word used is a derivative of the root word "wafat", which means "death"
The verse about Jesus (pbuh) in the Quran is:

"Behold! Allah said: "O jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute"

"Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona"

Here, the translators have put "take thee" or "raise up"

The same translators (in this case, Yusuf ALi) have, ironically, elsewhere in the Quran, translated derivatives of "wafat" as its true meaning....death/to die. As is the case in the following example:

"If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do" (2:234)

"Waallatheena yutawaffawna minkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasna bianfusihinna arbaAAata ashhurin waAAashran faitha balaghna ajalahunna fala junaha AAalaykum feema faAAalna fee anfusihinna bialmaAAroofi waAllahu bima taAAmaloona khabeerun"

And in this one:

"It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful" (16:70)

"WaAllahu khalaqakum thumma yatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila arthali alAAumuri likay la yaAAlama baAAda AAilmin shayan inna Allaha AAaleemun qadeerun"

In fact, in over 20 different instances, translators have interpreted this as "death/die"
Why, then, in that ONE verse, do they change it, and use "raise thee" or "take up"?



Nygdan wrote:
Isn't there a tradition that every century there is a reformer that will come about to get rid of all the innovations and additions that have been put into the religion? Perhaps this is only amoung the Shia


Possibly in the shia sect. I have never heard of it personally.



Nygdan wrote:
How? Because he comes back temporarly after him? Mo would still be the Final word on prophecy though no?


I can see your point, but even if he came back temporarily, it would still mean Muhammad's position of the seal of the prophets, would be null.
And anyway, as someone who doesnt beleive in the authenticity of the hadith, its all irrelevant to me



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
Because in the Quran, the arabic word used is a derivative of the root word "wafat", which means "death"

So it should read " I will [kill, allow to die] and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme"
Who is blaspheming then? In the other translations, you have it as yutawaffawna rather than warafiAAuka. But you are saying that warafiAAuka is normally translated as 'die'?

Aoologies, I meant temporaly, ie in time, as in after, not for a short time.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 11:11 PM
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Can any of you give me :

1) The Fashion this Mahdi will appear

2) His military plans

3) Where he is now

4) How this "Dajal" figure will appear

5) The opposing ideologies of both the "Dajal" and this Mahdi.

6) The role Iran plays in this Mahdi's plans

7) The role the Jews play with the "Dajal" and this Mahdi

8) The role Christendom plays with this "Dajal" and this Mahdi.

9) The most relevant Suras/ chapters/etc. in which both these figures are described.

10) ermmm... what else.... Ahh!- The role Allah plays in between this Mahdi and the supposed other prophets (is this Mahdi a mediator? If no does Allah have any mediators? What will this Mahdi do after he dies or is transfigured?)

Sorry for all the questions. I'm just fascinated with this figure of Islamic theology. Your Mahdi is fundamentally different from the Messianic concept I am accustomed to and would expect. Enlighten me.



[edit on 20-1-2006 by Nakash]



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 05:52 AM
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... I've been missing out.




quote: everything we know is from the hadith

and hence lies the problem. There IS no mahdi, coming to save muslims. Jesus (pbuh) is not coming back as our saviour.

There is no mention of this at all in the Quran, and i think that if something as huge as this was going to happen, it would be in there.

Muslims place way too much emphasis on a collection of writings which were compiled at least 150 years after the death of Muhammad (Pbuh)

For those who do believe in this, how do you satisfy your assumption that Jesus will come down, even though you know Muhammad was the last prophet?

This to me, smacks of christianity (no offence to christians). THat we are ultimately relying on a saviour to get rid of the evil in this world, has got to be one of the saddest things. Maybe we should start trying ourselves?


I disagree sir, many important topics are not mentioned in the Qur'an but are mentioned in hadith, a good example is how to pray, if you negate hadith then you will have the Qur'an speaking of sprayer but not how to pray.

You may argue that there are disagreements between scholars regarding the understanding hadith, but that doesn't really matter because whichever side we will take, the most important thing is the Correct - or sahih - hadith in which it is 100% since all of the narraters were trusted good men and finally published in a book to be studied by any inquiring person.

And may I also remind you that it is not easy to confirm that hadith becomes sahih, since it should meet certain conditions like verifying the fact all the narrators were linked ( that one died before meeting the next), and that the same hadith should be found in several chains of narrators ( i.e one is not enough).

And since the Dajjal and the Mahdi were both mentioned in several hadith fitting in the sahih category ( I'd also like to mention that there are some hadith that weren't sahih but that isn't our subject), we can be sure that both are real, even though many scholars have differant views on interpreting some of the hadith ( language related, not metaphorical ).
========================

Nakash:
After a long search on the internet, I was shocked to find out that 90% of my findings on mahdi/dajjal related hadith were invalid or really really strange, e.g: dajjal is the descendant of jesus
, I resorted to go an online library containing books that are considered main refrences to sunni muslim scholars worldwide which is sadly in Arabic, and thus I've taken the liberty of translating them so forgive any inaccuracy, and since I'll give you the raw material you can interparte it in the way you like.


Mahdi: litrally meaning the "guided one", a common name for Mahdi is "Al Mahdi Al Muntadar" or "the awaited guided one" though rarely understood as "the awaiting guided one".

Hadith Mentioning Al Mahdi




The prophet Mohammad said: "The earth shall be filled with injustice, and when it is filled, Allah will send a man from me ( my lineage ), his name is like mine, his father's name is like my father's ( Abdullah) , and he shall fill it (the earth) with justice as it was filled with injustice, and thus the sky shall hold back no rain, and the earth shall hold back no plant, he shall stay among you seven, or eight, or for the most, nine."
***
"Three shall fight over your teasures (the artifacts inside al-ka'bah) all three of them are sons of the kalifa -or caliph-, and it will be for none of them, it is then that black banners - or flags- shall appear from the east and they will murder you like no people have been murdered before... [ Narrator: then he mentioned something I cannot remember] ... and if you meet him ( Al Mahdi ) then make him swear the oath ( of becoming you leader) even if it will take to crawl on ice."
(forgive the inaccuracy of my translation in the last statement)


And that is only some the sunni beliefs in Al Mahdi, and may I add that Mohammad was born after Jesus that would techinically make him that last prophet inspite of the fact that Jesus will return in the end of days.

More to come in my next post...



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 03:43 PM
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My view: This Mahdi figure of Islam is too similar to Daniel's Son of Perdition (ie: Revelation's Beast from the sea). Just way too similar.

www.answering-islam.org...

I'd keep an eye on ANYBODY claiming to be a Messianic figure from God at this moment. Anybody. These are dangerous times (I myself have no fear, but I fear for others.)



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 04:54 PM
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Nygdan

I want to apologise for my last post. Seems i broke my own rule of verifying everything before accepting it as truth.

In my studies, i have been learning, then checking, learning, then checking (on both sides of the fence), and that was one thing (the jesus/saviour deal) that i had only checked ONCE.
As soon as i wrote that post last night, i read it, and thought...something doesnt seem right.
YOu noticed it yourself, the way the words were different entirely (even though they supposedly had the same root)

So i did some checking of arabic roots, and i have to admit, as of now....this is one subject i am going to keep quiet on, because i honestly cannot verify it one way or another.

PLease dont think of this as a cop out. I am trying really hard to study islam and i sometimes jump ahead of myself and believe things without checking them. Fortunately, i DO check them after.

So my humble apologies to you and as far as this thread goes, my mouth is now shut (cant find a smiley with a shut mouth, but if i could, it would be here :-))

[edit on 21-1-2006 by geek101]



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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i think the Qur'an was compiled a number of years after Muhammad's death.

Also, with regards to Nakash's queries regarding the dajaal, is it worth mentioning that 'information' of the type that is bullet pointed and emailed around everywhere? or is it too innacurate?

anyway, i had a book on it (so it must be true lol) with a decent description, i'll try and find it

also, there was an email about the scientific wonders of the Qur'an, with equal amounts of words being used? and the number of times sea and land was used actually matched the ratio on the earth. was that actually true?

thanks



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 11:48 PM
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The mathematical "miracle" of the Quran. That's a hoax. You can find patterns everywhere, from Mobdy Dick to the Torah. I'm not too much a fan of these attempts to find hidden meanings in religious works while ignoring the explicit ones.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 07:24 AM
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An interesting question would be what happens if islamic jesus comes back and trys to change things away from what Mo said.


Religious turf war?




i think the Qur'an was compiled a number of years after Muhammad's death.


Indeed, there were written pages of the Qur'an during Muhammad's (pbuh) life, but the whole thing was collected and printed a few years after his death ( not sure how many ), bearing in mind that the Arabic script was as hard to read as an undecyphered code, in which the Arabic script has advanced greatly for the convinience of foreigners and Arabs alike.

I think the oldest printed Qur'an available to the public is in a Turkish museum somewhere, I couldn't google it up...



Originally posted by Nakash
My view: This Mahdi figure of Islam is too similar to Daniel's Son of Perdition (ie: Revelation's Beast from the sea). Just way too similar.

www.answering-islam.org...

I'd keep an eye on ANYBODY claiming to be a Messianic figure from God at this moment. Anybody. These are dangerous times (I myself have no fear, but I fear for others.)


An interesting book indeed, it has some very facinating articles, but it's very clear that the author is biased and a some of the facts exaggerated or plainly untrue ( I didn't read the whole thing), but alas be careful what you read Nakash, because as I said before even the muslim web sources seem to mix what is true with what is not.

BTW, ever heard of the Egyptian Mahdi who appeared several years ago, I'm not sure what happened but I heared ( i.e unconfirmed rumor ) that he was a good man and had many followers, and he lead them to Mecca, thats when it got messy... ( I'd rather not finish, it's just terrible just to think about it ).

BTW#2, your name means "itcher" or "engraver" in Arabic. (Y)



The mathematical "miracle" of the Quran. That's a hoax. You can find patterns everywhere, from Mobdy Dick to the Torah. I'm not too much a fan of these attempts to find hidden meanings in religious works while ignoring the explicit ones.


Another excellent research topic, lets see how many hoaxes and coincedences I can dig up...



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:05 PM
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Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) is the seal of the Prophets. The savior ( Masih) Prophet Isa (Jesus) will come back as the savior according to Islam but as a Muslim following Islam not as Prophet following Christianity. The Al Mahdi (peace and blessings upon him) is the one coming before Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) to set the field straight for Prophet Jesus. He will basically implement True Shariah around most of the world. Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend on the white minaret mosque in what is now damascus. Imam Mahdi (peace and blessing be upon him) will just about be ready to lead the muslims in prayer when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) descends. Al Mahdi (peace and blessings be upon him) will step back .. Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will insist that the prayer call was meant for him. So Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will be a follower in the prayer behind Al Mahdi (peace and blessing be upon him). So this would signify Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) following the way of Imam Mahdi. This is a sunni muslim perspective.



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 07:20 PM
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That book is definitely biased towards Christianity, I do find the comparison amazing. I never heard of this Mahdi you mention, what was he ? Did he claim to be the expected figure and then get killed when he proved to be a fake? No need to get to the messy part if it bothers you...




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