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'Free' Unlimited Energy Source Developed

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posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
It's a bit hard to work out what the current power output of the tree is, as they don't tell you how many amps the current is.

Even human produces electricity, just take multimeter leads to different hands and you can measure small voltage...




Copper(II) electrode potential: 0.337V
Aluminium electrode potential: -1.662V
Hmm, what's the total difference between them? About 2V...where have I heard that before?

Which explains exactly how this device works. It is a galvanic reaction that uses the sap in the tree as an electrolyte, and if copper was used for both the nodes it simply wouldn't work. Considering the amount of energy it takes to refine aluminium, this device will actually be energy negative.
Yeah, they rediscovered "accumulator".
And really badly negative, refining aluminium takes lot of energy.

But because of people's lack of any kind basic education/knowledge these are so easy to push down the throat.




posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Which explains exactly how this device works. It is a galvanic reaction that uses the sap in the tree as an electrolyte, and if copper was used for both the nodes it simply wouldn't work. Considering the amount of energy it takes to refine aluminium, this device will actually be energy negative.


My understanding of any galvanic battery is that the electrolyte must be either acidic or alkaline in order to work. Aluminum can corrode through oxidation but that won't promote galvanic activity. The pH of a tree is very nearly neutral so I'm not so sure this is the basis of the process. Also, who's to say the nails have to be aluminum? We should try it with copper. I'd suggest other materials like cadmium coated and stainless steel nails but then we'd need the same material for the ground rod (to avoid the possibility of a galvanic potential) but rods of those materials are not readily available.

The earlier comment about tapping a television or toaster or whatever... DUH. They're plugged-in so we're just recovering power we're already feeding them. Living organisms produce energy through the synthesis of fuels (food). Trees (as an example) do this on their own without us actively having to feed them anything. One of the bi-products of their life process (and any other living thing's) is electricty. Maybe this is the source.

Does the system have the capacity to run your hair dryer or electric hot water heater? No. But compare what it can potentially do relative to, say, solar power. PV cells work only a small part of the day. Trees work 24/7. And at the end of the day both are only suitable for charging some storage system.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by jtma508
My understanding of any galvanic battery is that the electrolyte must be either acidic or alkaline in order to work.

No, it will more effective, as the electrolyte will be have a lower resistivity. However plain water is fine as an elecrolyte, though the more mineral impurities in it the better. This explains why this is an issue in hot water heaters:

www.arvanitakis.com...

This site shows how soil can be an electrolyte and why it's a real issue for people who have to look after underground piping:

www.corrosionsource.com...



Aluminum can corrode through oxidation but that won't promote galvanic activity.

Well, the aluminium corroding in the electrolyte (the fluids in the tree) will cause electrical current.

We don't actually know how much current the device generates as, suspiciously, they don't tell us. I would have failed my exams at school should I have left out such basic facts of the results of an experiment. As it is they get a voltage of 2.1 volts, which is damn near the 1.999 (about 5% out, which is well within a margin of error) you would expect if you hooked up copper and aluminium in an electrolyte. The tree and the soil might not make a very good electrolyte, but they still act as one. The current is probably tiny, we don't know.....

They say they can get a 12v 1A current, but they give us no clue at all as to how they will achieve this. Perhaps we need to send them the cash first.....



Also, who's to say the nails have to be aluminum?

Errm, they did in the paper you posted - I predict it won't work if both nodes are the same material. Though it is an interesting experiment, and I might try it in my garden this weekend, when my wife is out anyway




Trees (as an example) do this on their own without us actively having to feed them anything.

They do take in energy from sunlight and nutriants and minerals from the soil.

[edit on 20/1/06 by FatherLukeDuke]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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Hi listers. Well, following the credo of 'anything to avoid real work' I've done some experiments and am sharing my results herewith. These were very rudimentary and, of course, not a controlled environment but here is what I found:

I used an 8in diameter oak tree and used 8d nails of steel, stainless and galvanized each driven ~1/2” into the tree. Using a Sperry digital meter I measured the voltage between each nail and between each nail and:
• a copper rod driven into the ground ~2.5ft,
• a well casing (steel) ~375ft
• the probe tip pushed into the soil ~1/2”

I also measured the voltage between the nails in the tree. My results:

Nail-to-nail measurements:

Test vDC Galv Potential
=================================================
S.Steel => Steel 0.228 0.304 (Cr -> Fe)
S.Steel => Galv 0.127 0.180 (Cr -> Zn)
Steel => Galv 0.300 0.322 (Fe -> Zn)

Pretty close measurements considering the nails’ lack of purity.


Tree-to-ground measurements:

Nail Probe-in-Earth Well Cu Rod Galv Potential
=====================================================
S.Steel 0.547 0.561 0.791 Cr->Fe: 0.304Cr->Cu: 1.084
Steel 0.129 0.360 0.641 Fe->Cu: 0.780
Galv 0.290 0.439 0.944 Zn->Cu: 1.102

Nail-to-nail measurements with nails pushed into soil ~3/4” and equi-spaced at 6”

Test vDC Galv Potential
=================================================
S.Steel => Steel 0.425 0.304 (Cr -> Fe)
S.Steel => Galv 0.135 0.180 (Cr -> Zn)
Steel => Galv 0.366 0.322 (Fe -> Zn)

The soil here has a decidedly low pH due to the abundance of pine trees. This may account for the high readings than nail-to-nail in the tree.

I understand and accept that my experiment is hardly controlled but you have to admit it sure looks like galvanic potential is a major player here. The tree seems incidental to the measurement.

I've shared these results with MagCap. We'll see what they say.




[edit on 20-1-2006 by jtma508]


apc

posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
How exactly can circuitry boost a power output? Sounds like magic to me. The sort of claim perpetual motion machine builders make all the time.

Probably just a voltage multiplier... a bunch of caps and diodes.


12 Watts is enough to power "anything"? Even if they could get this sort of power rating (which they haven't yet) it would, for example, take 166 trees just to power the electric heater in my living room. As I live in London, and not in a forest, this isn't terribly practical. That's one of the fundamental flaws in the plan, most of the world's power is used in cities, where there aren't many trees.

That's probably what they're leaving out. "Oh... btw... just like any small battery, you need to use a lot of them to get any significant current." A tree probably can supply a dozen or so mA at 1V.

The aluminum, btw, can be obtained from recycled cans and whatnot. No need to really expend a lot of energy refining it.

I'd still just rather use a potato. Atleast it's edible after you're done.

This tree idea though would probably be useful in a post-apocalyptic survival situation.

Out in the woods... living off the land... surrounded by trees with nails in them. And when the tree dies, your choice of firewood is obvious!



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 03:04 PM
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You have voted jtma508 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Lovely work jtma508 - you say it isn't controlled, but it certainly much more detail than MagCap provide. I'd be very interested to hear what they have to say about your results, please keep us up to date.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 09:02 PM
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I posted some related information on this thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I wish I could find the research, I remember the guy published his findings and then pretty much vanished, any of you guys remember that?



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

DustintheWind, you said "I wonder why they would use an aluminum roof nail in the tree though and not something made from copper? "

Which made me think and do it a bit more reading...I think they may well be using aluminum becuase it corrodes, and as it corrodes it....produces electricity. My bet is that once the nail has fully corroded (poisoning the tree!) it will stop working.

Here is a strange coincidence:



Copper(II) electrode potential: 0.337V
Aluminium electrode potential: -1.662V

Hmm, what's the total difference between them? About 2V...where have I heard that before?

Source: www.ami.ac.uk...

Which explains exactly how this device works. It is a galvanic reaction that uses the sap in the tree as an electrolyte, and if copper was used for both the nodes it simply wouldn't work. Considering the amount of energy it takes to refine aluminium, this device will actually be energy negative.


That is exactly what it is doing, The anode (aluminum nail) used in their experiment nailed into the tree contacting sap (electrolyte) and/or some sort of moisture, in my case lots of rain, coupled with copper (dissimilar metal) wire to complete the circuit with the copper pipe and VOILA you have yourself a low voltage battery.

Excellent research FatherLukeDuke and jtma508!




You have voted jtma508 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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I've shared my findings with the company and they told me in 12mos of research they were only able to get nail-to-nail voltages in the tree in one other place in the country which happened to have low soil pH (as do I). But it is unclear whether anyone ever tried dissimilar nails in the tree. The company has put me in-touch with the inventor and I've been emailing him.

He said that in order to rule-out galvanic activity they have placed the ground rods 20ft - 40ft from the tree and gotten the same measurements as they did with the rod 2ft from the tree. Also, he says one other major factor is that they are measuring AC at the same time. I'm going to try and repeat my experiment today and drag my o'scope out as well to see if I can detect AC and get a frequency of whatever AC I find. Stay tuned...



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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This just sounds similar to geo thermal prpertys.
It's a temperature difference most likely. geothermal is a well in the ground with two allows that produce electricity when in contact and at different temperetures.

I didn't read the whole thread but it sounds reasonably similar in retrospect.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 04:30 PM
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Ok I have done some experiments like jtma508 with pretty much the same results.

Here are some pics to accompany the experiment:




Here are the materials I used, starting from the left, 8d penny 2-3/8" coated sinker nail, 1-5/8" exterior screw, aluminum roofing nails, 1/2" copper water pipe, green #12 awg stranded copper wire, black #12 awg solid copper wire, and bare #12 solid copper wire.


Here is the pic of how I positioned them on the tree:



Starting left with random spacing, the bare copper wire w/coated sinker, the green wire w/coated sinker, the green wire w/roofing nail, the black wire w/exterior screw, and the bare copper w/roofing nail.


And here is the setup w/the copper pipe:



I put the green stranded and the white solid copper to the pipe.

I hope everyone can see the pics ok.


I will put the pics of the multimeter reading on next.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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OK here are the readings.





Bare solid copper w/coated sinker (tree), white solid copper off of pipe (ground).






Green stranded wire w/coated sinker (tree), white solid copper off pipe (ground).






Green stranded wire w/roofing nail (tree), white solid copper off pipe (ground).






Black solid copper w/exterior screw (tree), white solid copper off pipe (ground).







Bare solid copper w/roofing nail (tree), white solid copper off pipe (ground).


The multimeter I am using is a Fluke 23 Series II



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 05:16 PM
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And last but not least here is the readings with the green stranded wire,






Bare solid wire w/coated sinker, green stranded wire to pipe.







Green stranded wire w/coated sinker, green stranded wire to pipe.







Green stranded wire w/roofing nail, green stranded wire to pipe.







Black solid wire w/exterior screw, green stranded wire to pipe.







Bare solid wire w/roofing nail, green stranded wire to pipe.



Now I did notice if I held the wire with my hands the voltage would go down .1vdc, probably the resistance from my body to ground.
Not sure what the Ph levels are for my area either, It has been raining alot since last december though, I think we have somewhere near 15" of rain so far.


[edit on 21-1-2006 by DustintheWind]



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 08:26 AM
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Great work Dust...

I would have expected a reading closer to 2v with the Al -> Cu readings. Are you sure you're using Al roofing nails and not Stainless?? The other readings are close to what I got. What are the sinkers coated with?

Here is one place to find the Glavanic Potentials: Electrode Potentials

The company is having me sign an NDA and I think there will be more details coming shortly. I'm working on getting more info about the AC readings they are getting.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by jtma508
Great work Dust...

I would have expected a reading closer to 2v with the Al -> Cu readings. Are you sure you're using Al roofing nails and not Stainless?? The other readings are close to what I got. What are the sinkers coated with?

Here is one place to find the Glavanic Potentials: Electrode Potentials

The company is having me sign an NDA and I think there will be more details coming shortly. I'm working on getting more info about the AC readings they are getting.


Thank you jtma!

The results will be more credible with two people doing this experiment, and having pics is worth a thousand words!

As far as the roofing nails being aluminum, I am pretty sure they are because they left a grayish stain on my hands when I was putting the copper wire to them, mabey just a coating?
The stainless nails I am not sure what they are coated with but I will check into it furture.
Gonna do some more tests today after leaving the nails in the tree overnight, I will post my results later.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 12:57 PM
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yeah they may just be galvanized and powder coated. Jtma sounds like he know s his stuff. This is pretty interesting in itself I'm gonna have to do some learning tonight on electrodes, currents and all these different things pertinent, you guys got any good links for s semi beginner. I have some high school courses like everyone else in science and electronincs. Also my dad was an avionics technician(glorified electricion for airplanes) and taught me quite a bit of interesting things.



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 10:53 PM
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Ok, jtma I did a little research on the nails I was using:


external source

The nails shank design is a major determining factor in the nails ability to be gripped by the wood fiber. Smooth shank nails have the least ability to be gripped by the wood fiber where nails that have a deformed shank; ring, barbed or screw, provide a greater ability to be gripped by the fibers. The nail finish or coating also enhances the nails ability to bond with the wood fiber. A Bright Finish is smooth and the most common type of finish. Blued nails have been degreased and heat cleaned to form a thin blue oxide film that provides a sterile property. Cement/Vinyl coated nails are coated with a resin that heats up from the friction of the nail being driven into the wood and sets like a glue to help bond the nail with the wood fibers. Acid or Chemical etched nails receive a special chemical treatment which roughens up the nail shank and provides greater holding power. Galvanized nails have had a zinc coating applied, either through a hot dip or electromechanical process which enhances the nails ability to resist rusting.
The nail head is used to help in the "mechanical" joining of the two pieces of wood together in a type of clamping action.


The 8d nails I was using are the cement/vinal coated nail, and the roofing nail I was using is a mild steel w/ electrogalvanized zinc coating, the exterior screw was a "Hot"dipped zinc coated steel screw.
Pretty interesting, I didn't know there where that many different nail/screw metal variations out there!


Here is the link to that quote above:

Pacific Steel and Supply



Originally posted by Magickesists
yeah they may just be galvanized and powder coated. Jtma sounds like he know s his stuff. This is pretty interesting in itself I'm gonna have to do some learning tonight on electrodes, currents and all these different things pertinent, you guys got any good links for s semi beginner. I have some high school courses like everyone else in science and electronincs. Also my dad was an avionics technician(glorified electricion for airplanes) and taught me quite a bit of interesting things.


Hey Magick could you give a little more info on what you do understand? Your dad was a "glorified airplane electrician" you said so I would think you would at least have a basic understanding of electricity, circuits and/or batteries, I will see what I can drum up for you in the mean time though.


Ok, here is a link talking about DC circuits using a battery, it even has a short quiz at the end.
Direct Current (DC) electrical Circuits

Here is one explaining Series and Parallel Circuits and Ohms Law.
Lessons In Electric Circuits

Here is one talking about Series and Parallel of multiple batteries.
All about Circuits

Hope these help!


[edit on 22-1-2006 by DustintheWind]



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 11:12 PM
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Well I read a lot of science fiction and think about severe theoretical situations with different aspects.
But what i know about electricity is that it has amp volts wats and ohms law and some things about circuits in parrallell and series.
Basically I know how things work just not the ratios and math of it all. I need to go back to basics and relearn most of my electronics. I know you can get electricity from two alloys ( can't remember the technical reason) when they are exposed to heat in some situations like those fans that are powered by heat on a wood stove.

But I did think of one thing once all the poking and prodding tech is worked out whos to say this method of energy harnessing has to be limited to trees. This may have more ramifications than first realized, I'm not sure what other medians could be used perhaps plant life spliced with electric gelly fish or eel dna for extra current. hmmmmmm?



posted on Jan, 22 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by Magickesists
But I did think of one thing once all the poking and prodding tech is worked out whos to say this method of energy harnessing has to be limited to trees. This may have more ramifications than first realized, I'm not sure what other medians could be used perhaps plant life spliced with electric gelly fish or eel dna for extra current. hmmmmmm?


Magick did you take a look at the link jtma provided on this?
Electrode Potentials
The electrical potential shown in the chart is from two dissimilar metals placed in water together.
I get alot of rain where I live, maybe I will use water instead of killing my tree's with nails...


*...runs off to get some Lithium....*



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 08:21 AM
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Great job to those who did the experiment. I was going to do this, but I got called in to my second job.

The reading listed are very interesting and good to know. If there ever was a disaster, this bit of info might become handy to power up things that don't draw too much power.

Now, if only I had 166 tree's in my yard.



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