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Originally posted by Stari
What about the dating of the Sphinx? It was built before Egypt went through its wet period where the Sphinx inclosure was full of water for a very long time. The wet period ended around 10,000 years ago according to Boston University geologist Robert Schoch.
Originally posted by Stari
I am done arguing with you
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
But there are no 9,500 year old cities in Egypt. And there is no 10,500 year old city in or around Athens..
Um, I think that is not true. What about the dating of the Sphinx? It was built before Egypt went through its wet period where the Sphinx inclosure was full of water for a very long time. The wet period ended around 10,000 years ago according to Boston University geologist Robert Schoch.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
Unfortunately, though this priest is supposedly talking to Solon sometime around 560 BC, a period from which a great many artifacts survive, no such deeds are recorded in any Egyptian histories ever found.
Once again, if Egypt went through a wet period and only ended in 10,000 then it stands to reason that hardly anything would be left of a civilization.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
Secondly, I'm not twisting anything. It is you that is doing the twisting. We've gone from some geomagnetic flip 12, 000 years ago that geophysicists know nothing about, yet you somehow are completely informed on, through "well, what Plato meant was...", to you denying you said the following:
Now let's look at Atlantis. That was a time frame of perhaps 30 to 50 thousand years ago.
Scientists say that they believe, because it is all speculation, that the bottleneck ended around 10,000 years ago and they do not even know what started the bottleneck, I am speculating that it could have been due to the flip in the magnetic field. Sorry I didnt make that clearer.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
There's nothing in Plato about this. You got it from one of the con artists who made it up, or you just made it up yourself. And then tried to tell me "I have never changed the timeline for which Plato states Atlantis existed." Who's twisting what around here?
I am saying here that Atlantis could have began around 50,000 years ago and then ended around the time frame of what Plato said. You are really twisting things here.. No one would think that Atlantis just came to be at 10,500 years ago and then poof gone in the same year. They were an old civilization. This is what I meant.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
Yes, you statred this thread. What of it? Stari, you don't get to pick and choose what opinions will be posted in threads at ATS. I'm not saying you have to come up with evidence. Just that if anyone has to, it's you. You are the one making the extreme claim here. I'm saying there's no evidence, I'm not required to prove that there's no evidence. If you don't agree with me, then all you have to do is provide some evidence and, BAM, I'm refuted, right?
I'm sorry, I am new to these boards, but I could have swarn that my welcome email from the moderators of these forums said to stick to the topics. Am I mistaken moderators?
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
You may well be done arguing with me. But it remains my opinion that one should first at least attempt to establish the existence of Atlantis before attributing Atlantis to Martian immigrants.
That is because if it is mentioned then they are laughed out of sience from those who refuse to look at all the facts.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
Sorry, but I believe it is, as long as you include Plato (the only ancient source), who you forgot to mention. The list I give represents a fairly balanced view of both sides of this non-issue. What further studies would you recommend that might sway me more toward your way of thinking in this matter?
I am not here to sway anyones thoughts. I am here only to get input from those people who have done their homework and have come to the same conclusion as I have. You can think what ever you wish.
Originally posted by Stari
Originally posted by Harte
Well, at least you've realized the difference between "proof" and evidence. I rarely achieve even that much in such a trusting naive and easily misled Atlantis-head such as yourself.
Name calling.. wow, you are a low person to do that. I thought I was debating with a intelligent human.
... and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships
What about the city of Troy? That was always believed to be myth but it is now indeed a fact! Scientists were called crazy and could loose all reputation for searching for the lost and fabled city of Troy.
Originally posted by Enkidu
What about the city of Troy? That was always believed to be myth but it is now indeed a fact! Scientists were called crazy and could loose all reputation for searching for the lost and fabled city of Troy.
Current opinions about the "rediscovery" of Troy are that the results are questionable and inconclusive, and that Heinrich Schliemann might have been doing a lot of wishful thinking. He discovered many layers of a buried city. But nobody knows if any of the layers are the same Troy referred to in the literature.
Originally posted by Essan
Schoch doesn't say that The African Humid Period ended around 5,500 years ago - maybe a thousand years before the sphinx is traditionally believed to have been built, but at a time when people who may well have been capable of carving it were certainly living in the area.
Schoch estimated as age of 6-7,000 years for the sphinx.
Other authors have pushed that back to match their own particular theories, but there is no evidence that the Sphinx needs be more that 6,000 years old.
Originally posted by Donner
... and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships
This doesn't really sound to me like the kind of military that would be fielded by a civilization capable of inter-planetary travel.
Originally posted by identitynone
The possibility of interplanetary travel by an earlier race is more than just a possibility, it could be seen as a credible fact. There is a movement that believes that area 51 and other associated sites like pine gap in Australia were not created by the government. Rather, it is believed that they were discovered and their walls contained technology way beyond ours. One of which is the design for the stealth bomber.
Originally posted by Enkidu
Current opinions about the "rediscovery" of Troy are that the results are questionable and inconclusive, and that Heinrich Schliemann might have been doing a lot of wishful thinking. He discovered many layers of a buried city. But nobody knows if any of the layers are the same Troy referred to in the literature.
Originally posted by Stari
To quote Dr. Schoch,
"Based on either this chain of reasoning, or the scenario suggested immediately above-and given that the weathering of the limestone floor of the Sphinx enclosure is fifty to 100 percent deeper on the front and sides of the figure than at its rear-we can estimate that the initial carving of the Great Sphinx (i.e., the carving of the main portion of the body and the front end) may have been carried out ca. 7000 to 5000 B.C. (in other words, that the carving of the core body of the figure is approximately fifty to 100 percent older than ca. 2500 B.C.). This tentative estimate is probably a minimum date; given that weathering rates may proceed non-linearly (the deeper the weathering is, the slower it may progress due to the fact that it is "protected' by the overlying material), the possibility remains open that the initial carving of the Great Sphinx may be even earlier than 9,000 years ago."
The link to this article is on Dr. Schoch's website located at:
www.robertschoch.net...
Originally posted by StariThe last sentence there states that the initial carving of the great sphinx may be even earlier than 9 thousand years ago. I'm not saying it was carved from Atlanteans, but maybe from what Plato calles Athenians. Plato stated in the beginning of Critias that the names of the Atlanteans were lost in time so he would give the people for which his story told of familiar names. Maybe that is why he called them Athenians. And maybe they were the builders of the sphinx.
And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus
Originally posted by Stari
I am assuming if these records did exist then they would have been really precious documents of history. It would have been in the library of alexander or maybe kept safely else where. Just because they have not been found yet does not mean that they do not exist.
Originally posted by StariAnd about the pole flips and bottleneck info, I will refer you back to my post on page
www.abovetopsecret.com... at the very top of the page. You did quote me on that post.. didn't you read it?
I had to even do a search on the bottleneck and pole flip articles just so that you could read them Harte, why couldn't you have done that instead of bulling me for references. I'm sorry for being snotty to you but it was an instinct. Sort of like if someone comes up to you and punches you in the arm, now I know I would not stand there and take it.. I would hall off and belt him or her back as hard as I could.. hehehe Well I would. So, when you made me feel like I had to do your research and search for the bottleneck info and the pole flip info just to prove myself instead of doing your own home work, I guess I wasn't very happy. Instead of saying, well Stari that has been proven inaccurate and this is where you can find that info, you challenged me like a bully.
You say that all I have to do is put up some evidence and bam your refuted, but when I did put up links leading you to the research on the bottleneck and magnetic pole flips you ignored them and still insisted that I needed to put more evidence up for you. No more Harte. You do the searches this time. And if you find evidence that refutes my words then please post the links to the evidence here.
Dating a perceived bottleneck is largely a question of searching through time for a possible cause and then trying to determine whether the available evidence fits the suspected cause. This is largely what has been done with the Toba YTT event which actually fits surprisingly well and so has a relatively high probability of actually being true. There is no other possible cause in sight but of course, there cannot ever be absolute certainty - there never is in studies of the past...
First thought 35,000 years old because of contaminated C14 measurements on wood samples found under the ash, the ash has now been re-dated in 1978 ( ref. Ninkovich D. et al., 1978) with volcanological methods and unambiguousoly assigned to the Toba YTT event of 73,000 years ago.
Scientists say that they believe, because it is all speculation, that the bottleneck ended around 10,000 years ago and they do not even know what started the bottleneck
These population bottleneck times did not occure during our 12,000 yr time frame for Atlantis, but it does seem to have ended during this time frame.
Originally posted by Stari
And I believe the name you used was and I will quote you "trusting naive and easily misled Atlantis-head such as yourself." Not just Atlantis-head.
Originally posted by Stari
There is enough proof to state that Atlantis really existed,
Originally posted by StariI am not saying that Atlantis
undeniably existed
Originally posted by Harte
If you'll read what Schoch says, all of it, you'll see that the weathering he's talking about on the floor of the Sphinx enclosure does not involve water in any form. It's related to exposure to the air..
Originally posted by Harte
This is not so. These names were not lost, and Plato was definitely referring to the Athenians that lived in Greece, right where his own Athens was located, even though there were no such people.
From the Critias:
And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus
What I believe you are referring to is that, according to Plato, Solon changed a lot of the ancient names to Greek names in his narrative (which narrative I assert never existed.)
plato
For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions.
Originally posted by Harte
Like I told you, I've read every theory there is to read on Atlantis. The only sources I requested had to do with the pole flip and the bottleneck, I don't need your sources on Atlantis. If your original link is all you have on the pole flip, I'm sorry but that information doesn't even relate to any pole flip at all.
Originally posted by Harte
Sorry if providing some info on your version of the population bottleneck was too much trouble. This subject was being discussed in another thread here at ATS, by the way.
"Naive" (and "trusting", aproximately the same thing):
Based on your apparent decision to take as the truth on pure faith anything Graham Hancock tells you.
Originally posted by Harte
"Easily misled":
Originally posted by whitelightwolf
I believe in Atlantis too. it will rise again when the next polar shift comes our way.
That particular wording for the search returned a mere 47,200 website hits.
Harte