Is it possible that the Atlanteans came from a planet in our own solar system?, page 5

privacy

Pages: << 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times

reply posted on 18-2-2006 @ 09:38 PM by Stari

Exactly what "similarities" do you refer to here?

Well for starters there is the similar pyramids that were built by ancient civilizations in Egypt also found in South America, Japan. There is also the simular size stones used to make structures as in the Malta ruins here is a link to the pic of it here: www.breitservices.com...
and the enclosure of the sphyinx, pic of it here: www.spiritualrealist.com... there is also the Oseirion - Temple of Seti, Abydos the pic is here:
www.egypteeternelle.net...
All of these structures have the same kind of cut stone. Anyhow these are just some simularities that I can think of off the top of my head. John West and Graham Hancock both believe in the simularities around the world of civilizations. They did there research and presented their findings. I am not sure of their scholarly back ground so I do not know if they have that little piece of paper that calls them scientist. But if you look up the definition for scientist it is according to Wikipedia: A scientist is an expert in at least one area of science who uses the scientific method to do research. Then I wondered what does scientific method mean: "Scientific method as envisaged by one of its early exponents, Sir Isaac Newton, is fundamental to the investigation and acquisition of new knowledge based upon physical evidence."
Physical evidence is what these men found, so I guess we can consider them scientists. Click this link to see the definitions of scientists and scientific method: en.wikipedia.org...

What "proof" are you talking about here? I'm aware of no such catastrophe.

Here is a quote from a website:
"The earth's tilt is currently decreasing and it is believed to have been doing so for the past 10,000 years. Since it is the tilt of the axis that produces the cycle of the seasons, this means that the differences between the seasons are less extreme now than they were 10,000 years ago -- other things being equal, summers are a little cooler and winters are a little warmer."
The websites URL is: ourworld.compuserve.com...
karws.gso.uri.edu... This website states, and I will quote again for those who do not wish to read the entire document:
"The last glaciation ended around 15,000 years ago, as the earth started warming (which marks the beginning of the Holocene). The Younger Dryas, a rapid climatic reversal to this warming trend, occurred 12,500 years ago resulting in a temporary cold period that lasted until 11,600 (See Figure 12-2 and Figure 12-1 (b)). Evidence of climate change at this time is seen in various parts of the world but the main effects of the Younger Dryas event appear to be centered in the North Atlantic region."

I guess you just really have to do your homework to know what this planet has gone through. There is also a period of time in Earths history that is called the bottleneck. They call it this because Earths population was great in numbers then for some reason the population went down in numbers over many thousands of years. This website has a diagram on it for a population bottleneck:
www.andaman.org...

These population bottleneck times did not occure during our 12,000 yr time frame for Atlantis, but it does seem to have ended during this time frame. This planet went through some wild weather and natural disasters thousands of years ago. During the past thousand years the Earth has been relatively quiet except for a spit and sputter here and there from volcanos and earthquakes.

Why would an archaeological dig require a geomagnetic pole flip?

Well it wouldn't have to be just a magnet pole flip, that was the only real huge event that I could think of right off the top of my head after a long day of work. To be able to get to where I believe Atlantis main city was once at, it would require the Caribbean Sea to be emptied out. This way archeologists would be able to get to the bottom of the Caribbean Sea to dig. I know that the oceans have migrated through Earths history, what caused these events I am unsure of.

My proof lies with my proof that the universe is not supported by the strong backs of an infinite array of turtles. Never heard of that theory?

What I mean is that, when someone makes a claim that goes completely against everything we know (like Atlantis), then it is up to that person (the claimer, if you will) to provide what you call "proof" (I call it "evidence.")

Plato is also adamant in other of his dialogues that some of the things he's saying about the Greek Gods is true. Excuse me if I don't believe that either.

When someone makes a claim that goes completely against everything "we" know. Who is we? Anyone who has done the research would know there is a great possibility of an advanced civilization that once lived many thousands of years ago.

Do you believe in God? I would say almost 90% of this world believes in one God or another. Does this mean we are all delusional?

The age of the settlements that started Athens is well known. Believe me, no civilization ever found dates back to anything like 10,000 BC. The earliest is around 3500 BC.

Ancient artifacts are found all over the world proving that civilizations have been around far longer than "some unopen minded scientists" will admit too. Proof is out there if an open minded person wishes to do ALL the research. Plato most likely new that Solon meant a civilization that lived in the area where Athens resided so knowing that Athens most likely came from that civilization and then the civilization before that and so on.... he just for all intended purposes called them Athens.
www.forbiddenarcheology.com...
paranormal.about.com...

How then do you account for Atlantis? The bible makes no mention at all of it, supposedly the "Mother of All Civilizations."

I must sadly admit that I have not read the bible from cover to cover. So if there is mention of a beginning date that God created the Earth and the heavens please post that info here. Because to my knowledge the bible does not say God created the Earth and the heavens in 3500 BC.

Ah yes, the Troy argument.

Yes the Troy argument. The city of Troy was around for many many years.. here is a link to the archeological of Troy:
en.wikipedia.org...

Notice the time frame.. I am sure many many writings survived that short time frame to present day. Now let's look at Atlantis. That was a time frame of perhaps 30 to 50 thousand years ago. Now let's look at the world wide stories told of a massive flooding that took a advance civilization and sank them to the bottom of the ocean. Well, you could also read Graham Hancocks "Fingerprints of the Gods".

Stari, I've been over these arguments before in other threads. There's other arguments there as well, I suggest you use the search function, or the "sticky" on the Atlantis subject. I'm really tired of making these same arguments over and over.

Then I would suggest you pick up a book and do some reading.. or maybe get out in the world and have a look for yourself since you seem like the kind of person who will not listen to other peoples research.

But it is I that should ask you for your "proof," and not vice-versa, because it is you that is making the claim here.

I have proof or evidence. I have done my research. Since you are saying that you do not need proof or evidence I can only assume since you are being so vague that you do not have any. Open your mind and go do a search on the internet and see what you come up with if you do not wish to pick up a book or travel the world to see what others have seen and reported. There is no doubt that an advanced civilization lived way before the egyptians, Troy and all of the other well known civilizations. A few searches I would suggest you start with would be Ancient artifacts, forbidden archeology just to name a couple. I cannot do all the work for you Harte you will need to do the research. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but your last post was not very nice. You need to do more research.

And while you are doing that I am hoping to hear from some people who have done their research and would like to get down to some serious chat about the possibility of the Atlanteans coming from Mars or any other planet in or out of our Solar System.

reply posted on 19-2-2006 @ 03:48 PM by Harte

Originally posted by Stari

Exactly what "similarities" do you refer to here?

Well for starters there is the similar pyramids that were built by ancient civilizations in Egypt also found in South America, Japan. There is also the simular size stones used to make structures as in the Malta ruins here is a link to the pic of it here: www.breitservices.com...
and the enclosure of the sphyinx, pic of it here: www.spiritualrealist.com... there is also the Oseirion - Temple of Seti, Abydos the pic is here:
www.egypteeternelle.net...
All of these structures have the same kind of cut stone.

So, stacks of cut stones - that's supposed to indicate that all the ancient civilizations stemmed from some even "ancienter" original one? This is your, and I quote, "enough proof to state that Atlantis really existed..."?
And please, tell me where these Japanese pyramids are. I hope you're not referring to Yonaguni, a perfectly natural formation.

Originally posted by StariAnyhow these are just some simularities that I can think of off the top of my head. John West and Graham Hancock both believe in the simularities around the world of civilizations. They did there research and presented their findings. I am not sure of their scholarly back ground so I do not know if they have that little piece of paper that calls them scientist.
Physical evidence is what these men found, so I guess we can consider them scientists.

I am fully cognizant of what a "scientist" is and what is meant by the "scientific method." John Anthony West is an author, and he is only an author, though he has written, I believe, one play. He is self-taught in Egyptology, and hangs around cats like Hancock - who by the way is a former journalist, in order to make money. West's primary source of income is arranging for tours and then guiding tours around to various of Egypt's monuments.
Neither man can be even associated in any way with the title "scientist," and neither conducts anything like "science."
And no, neither man has found any physical evidence at all.
By the way, even John Anthony West agrees that the Yonaguni "pyramids" are a natural formation.

Originally posted by Stari
What "proof" are you talking about here? I'm aware of no such catastrophe.

Here is a quote from a website:
"The earth's tilt is currently decreasing and it is believed to have been doing so for the past 10,000 years. Since it is the tilt of the axis that produces the cycle of the seasons, this means that the differences between the seasons are less extreme now than they were 10,000 years ago -- other things being equal, summers are a little cooler and winters are a little warmer."
"The last glaciation ended around 15,000 years ago, as the earth started warming (which marks the beginning of the Holocene). The Younger Dryas, a rapid climatic reversal to this warming trend, occurred 12,500 years ago resulting in a temporary cold period that lasted until 11,600 (See Figure 12-2 and Figure 12-1 (b)). Evidence of climate change at this time is seen in various parts of the world but the main effects of the Younger Dryas event appear to be centered in the North Atlantic region."

I guess you just really have to do your homework to know what this planet has gone through. There is also a period of time in Earths history that is called the bottleneck. They call it this because Earths population was great in numbers then for some reason the population went down in numbers over many thousands of years. This website has a diagram on it for a population bottleneck:

Stari, here's what you posted:

Also there is proof all around the world of a catastrophe happening around 12,500 years ago worldwide, not just locally

(My emphasis.)
The Younger Dryas can hardly be characterized as a worldwide catastrophe, now can it? Nor can it account for a catastrophe that would doom an entire civilization, sink a continent-sized island nation, and destroy every single artifact they created so as to prevent future humans (like us) from knowing about them.
Your other arguments involve the precession of the Earth's axis, a cyclical thing the Earth constantly goes through, and a mention of the bottleneck in human population.

Now, how does what is essentially only a slightly cooler winter and slightly warmer summer account for the worldwide catastrophe you've claimed has been proven? And believe me when I tell you, the bottleneck in population you refer to (which, by the way, refers only to humans) happened hundreds of thousands of years ago, not tens of thousands.

And I've already done this homework, scores of times over. That's what I meant about how maybe you should look for your arguments, and their rebuttals, in other threads, like those to be found in the Atlantis "sticky" thread, near the top of the listed threads in this section.

Originally posted by Stari
Why would an archaeological dig require a geomagnetic pole flip?

Well it wouldn't have to be just a magnet pole flip, that was the only real huge event that I could think of right off the top of my head after a long day of work. To be able to get to where I believe Atlantis main city was once at, it would require the Caribbean Sea to be emptied out. This way archeologists would be able to get to the bottom of the Caribbean Sea to dig. I know that the oceans have migrated through Earths history, what caused these events I am unsure of.

Have you looked into estimated ages for the Carribean? Are you aware that there was a sea of some kind there when the dinosaur-killing asteriod struck the Yucatan 60 million years ago?

Originally posted by Stari
My proof lies with my proof that the universe is not supported by the strong backs of an infinite array of turtles. Never heard of that theory?

What I mean is that, when someone makes a claim that goes completely against everything we know (like Atlantis), then it is up to that person (the claimer, if you will) to provide what you call "proof" (I call it "evidence.")

Plato is also adamant in other of his dialogues that some of the things he's saying about the Greek Gods is true. Excuse me if I don't believe that either.

When someone makes a claim that goes completely against everything "we" know. Who is we? Anyone who has done the research would know there is a great possibility of an advanced civilization that once lived many thousands of years ago.

Do you believe in God? I would say almost 90% of this world believes in one God or another. Does this mean we are all delusional?

"We meaning "us." Us people that do look into things we are interested in, in an unbiased manner. Sure, anybody that's read Hancock, West, Bauvel, Sitchen, VonDaniken, et al., would know there is a "great possibility of an advanced civilization that once lived many thousands of years ago." But someone like that has not conducted research, they have participated in a mind candy exercise. Real research includes actually looking into how real scientists really explain the real things they themselves really found.

Regarding the belief in God, if you wanted to say that you had faith that Atlantis existed, that would not be the same as saying you know for a fact it existed, or that there was some evidence, or proof of the existence of some civilization from 12,000 years ago.

At least we have several books from various authors written in various places during various time periods that make this claim that God exists. Too bad we have no such plethora of claims for any ancient 12,000 year old civilization.

Originally posted by Stari
The age of the settlements that started Athens is well known. Believe me, no civilization ever found dates back to anything like 10,000 BC. The earliest is around 3500 BC.

Ancient artifacts are found all over the world proving that civilizations have been around far longer than "some unopen minded scientists" will admit too. Proof is out there if an open minded person wishes to do ALL the research. Plato most likely new that Solon meant a civilization that lived in the area where Athens resided so knowing that Athens most likely came from that civilization and then the civilization before that and so on.... he just for all intended purposes called them Athens.

There have been no such "ancient artifacts...found all over the world...proving..." any such thing. Artifacts are found by the very scientists that you dismiss with the rest of your sentence. You have some secret knowledge that they, who find these things, do not posess?

You yourself reveal by these statements about Solon that it is you that refuses to do "ALL the research." It's quite obvious that you have not even read the only actual ancient reference to Atlantis that exists anywhere in the world today. I linked you to the Critias and the Timaeus. Read those to find out why this argument holds absolutely no water.

Besides, I already told you, there was no civilization anywhere around Athens (or anywhere else, for that matter) during the time Plato is talking about.

Originally posted by Stari
How then do you account for Atlantis? The bible makes no mention at all of it, supposedly the "Mother of All Civilizations."

I must sadly admit that I have not read the bible from cover to cover. So if there is mention of a beginning date that God created the Earth and the heavens please post that info here. Because to my knowledge the bible does not say God created the Earth and the heavens in 3500 BC.

However, you did say that you " believe in God and everything that is in the Bible." If this is true, you must believe the Bible tells the story of the creation of Man. Where's Man's mother civilization in the Bible? Where's Atlantis?

Originally posted by Stari
Ah yes, the Troy argument.

Yes the Troy argument. The city of Troy was around for many many years.. here is a link to the archeological of Troy:
en.wikipedia.org...

Notice the time frame.. I am sure many many writings survived that short time frame to present day. Now let's look at Atlantis. That was a time frame of perhaps 30 to 50 thousand years ago. Now let's look at the world wide stories told of a massive flooding that took a advance civilization and sank them to the bottom of the ocean. Well, you could also read Graham Hancocks "Fingerprints of the Gods".

First, you ignore what I said about Troy being deeply imbedded in Greek tradition, while Atlantis is not imbedded at all. This argument was in response to you're using Troy to try and show that scientists that consider Atlantis to be mythical are just as wrong as those that considered Troy to be mythical. You said:

what about the city of Troy? That was always believed to be myth but it is now indeed a fact! Scientists were called crazy and could loose all reputation for searching for the lost and fabled city of Troy. Not now. Atlantis is the same.

So, is Atlantis the same, or is it not? First you say it's the same (your exact words.) Then you say it's not the same because the "time frame" is so much longer and (I guess) you mean the stories couldn't have survived like the Troy ones did. If that's so, where'd the Egyptians get the story? How come there's no Egyptian records of Atlantis?

Secondly, you just jumped the time period for Atlantis even further back, a favorite trick of the con men that try to sell these ideas in print form. Sorry, but since Plato is the only source that exists concerning anything ever reported about this place "Atlantis," I'm afraid I must insist that we use Plato's time period of 9,000 years before Solon, or didn't you know that?
That is, unless you want to talk about some other, even more ancient civilization that never existed.

Originally posted by Stari
Stari, I've been over these arguments before in other threads. There's other arguments there as well, I suggest you use the search function, or the "sticky" on the Atlantis subject. I'm really tired of making these same arguments over and over.

Then I would suggest you pick up a book and do some reading.. or maybe get out in the world and have a look for yourself since you seem like the kind of person who will not listen to other peoples research.

If you look with an unbiased eye at ALL the research, you'll see what I see. I'm always interested in learning more, so I'm constantly doing "homework" in this area. What I'm not doing is repeatedly and needlessly going over and over Michael Cremo's idiotic claims, or Hancock's most recent attempts to piece his shattered logic back together again like Humpty Dumpty.

There are no "unexplained" out of place artifacts, by the way, and there is no evidence anywhere at all of any civilization prior to about 3500 BC. Of course, this would depend on your definition of civilization. 3500 BC corresponds with the first writing, considered one of the things necessary to the definition of "civilization." If this is unacceptable, I suppose you could consider a civilization to be a place with permanent dwellings, somewhat earlier than 4000 BC this is, but certainly not Atlantean.

Originally posted by Stari
But it is I that should ask you for your "proof," and not vice-versa, because it is you that is making the claim here.

I have proof or evidence. I have done my research. Since you are saying that you do not need proof or evidence I can only assume since you are being so vague that you do not have any.

You do not understand why it is that I who have made no extraordinary claim need not provide evidence for a claim I have not made, and you, who has made an extraordinary claim, need to provide evidence? And you presume to lecture me on the definition of the scientific method?

Originally posted by StariOpen your mind and go do a search on the internet and see what you come up with if you do not wish to pick up a book or travel the world to see what others have seen and reported. There is no doubt that an advanced civilization lived way before the egyptians, Troy and all of the other well known civilizations. A few searches I would suggest you start with would be Ancient artifacts, forbidden archeology just to name a couple. I cannot do all the work for you Harte you will need to do the research.

I've already done this work. I have completely debunked Cremo (hindu author of "Forbidden Archaeology"), I have discovered perfectly good explanations for every ancient "out of place" artifact I can find on the web. I've read Herodotus, I've read Plato. I've read Madame Blavatski, Robert Schoch, Hancock, VonDaniken, I've even read Solon, what we can find. I've read Emery, I've read Cayce, I've read Hawass.

I used to think Atlantis was a possibility. Hell, I wanted it to be real. When I looked into it, it evaporated. Believe what you want, but don't claim to have done research when you've read Hancock and Cremo. I can give you information on Hancock that will make you run at top speed to the bookstore for your refund. And Cremo's entire publication ("Forbidden Archaeology") was financed by the Hindus, for religious purposes (their scriptures claim human civilization dates back in themillions of years.)
Kind of like a scientific treatment of Intelligent Design being published by Pat Robertson's group. Somewhat suspect in content, to say the least.

Harte

reply posted on 19-2-2006 @ 08:38 PM by Stari

Ok Harte listen, I have read both Critias and Timaeus. I actually have them both printed up and read them about a year and a half ago. Since then I have read lots of other books. I have watched documentary upon documentary. I have searched through websites of people with way out ideas that I could never believe in and I have read over websites from people who makes sense. I have never changed the timeline for which Plato states Atlantis existed. You can twist things all you want but it will not change the facts.

I am the one who started this thread and it was started for those people who believe that Atlantis once existed. I wanted their opinions on whether or not Atlantis could have come from another planet, maybe from within our own solar system. So you are saying that I have to come up with proof on why Atlantis existed? You are the one who came into a thread that I started and you are the none believer in an advanced ancient civilization that I believe in, so you are the one who should show your proof, evidence, not me. So do not come to this thread and tell me that I have not done my research just because you do not believe in Atlantis.

I am done arguing with you. That is not what this thread was all about. You have turned it into an arguement on whether Atlantis ever existed. For me and alot of people who research into geology, archeology and anthropology it did exist. And it existed around 12,500 years ago.

Reading Madame Blavatski, Robert Schoch, Hancock, VonDaniken, Solon, Emery, Cayce, and Hawass is not enough to get the full picture. You said is the simularities in pyramids my proof in atlantis? No.. I do not have proof. No one has proof. Proof will not be found until the city is actually found, that is what makes Plato's story a myth, or a story. Just like Troy used to be. You need to study geology, archeology and anthropology, then you may get a bigger picture of what happend in the world way back in the past. Geology can tell a person alot. If you really want to continue this debate on whether atlantis existed then please make a thread of your own and invite me to debate you. I would be more than happy to come in and debate you on the subject of if Atlantis ever existed. But please let's keep this thread open for what the real topic is about.
Thanks

And for those people who do believe in Atlantis, please feel free to give your ideas on whether or not Atlanteans could have started here on Earth or maybe on another planet.

reply posted on 19-2-2006 @ 09:25 PM by encinoman

I personly think atlantiens are real because just the other day on the history channel i was watching a show that said that they found a tomb under the left paw of the sphinx that contained a chest of some kind that was thought to contain a scroll that said something about atlantis but the egyptian government closed the dig for some obserd reason but what i think is that they know something we dont and they are trying to cover it up so we dont find out anymore than what we know till the time is right

[edit on 19-2-2006 by encinoman]

reply posted on 20-2-2006 @ 01:41 AM by lostinspace

Here's a thought. (Take it with a grain of salt.)

The Native Americans believe their ancestors are from the stars and this may have some berring on the extraterrestrial Atlantis. I do believe that the Original Native Americans are some how associated with the Atlantis legend.

I would say that a certain culture, from North Western Africa, with a specific cult following (possibly Celtic) sailed to Mexico and blended their beliefs with the current inhabitants (possibly a mixture of Chinese and Polonesian.)

The book of Enoch asserts that some 200 angels came down to earth to cohabitate with the daughters of men. Their primary residence was said to be in Mt. Hermon (Greek mythology says Mt. Olypus), which is somewhere near the land of Sidon (Phoenicia) and Syria. The angelic offspring were called the Nephelim in the book of Genesis. They also could be known as the giants. They were rather tall, in comparison to true men and the incarnate angels. They were very agresive and took what ever they desired. I have a slight thought that the sons of the angels had a unique forehead because the frontal lobe of their brains weren't developed, hence the violent behavior.

Greek mythology says that there were rebel gods who ruled the earth before Zeus took over. These elder gods were refered to as the Titans. One elder Titan who ruled the Seas was named Oceanus and he was latered captured and thrown into Tartarus. Zeus' brother Poseidon took over the authority of Oceanus after his imprisionment. The account of the Critias sounds like it mentions multiple eras of earth's history, one possibly being antideluvian. Poseidon (or possibly Oceanus) fell in love with a mortal woman named Cleito and they produced male offspring, five sets of twins. Each twin was given an authority over a different section of the Atlantis kingdom. Notice how their are only male offspring, just like the Biblical account in Genesis, "mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Plato spoke of many deluges that had already happened before the sinking of Atlantis. It could have been that Oceanus and his ten sons were long gone whe the judgement of Atlantis came along.

Since Phonicia is nearest Mt. Hermon, I think a specific cult following spread out from that region toward North Western Africa and then to the area of Mexico, saying their descendants of the royal families of the ten sons of the sea god, who is from the stars.

Now about the theory that Atlantians came from anther planet and then settled on earth. I would say that neither the angels or the Nephelim had the means to create starships during the pre-flood world. The angels could dematerialize and travel to another world if they so chose. however. Their offspring could not visit another world because of their human flesh. During the event that was to bring upon the great deluge, most of the 200 angels traveled to the great sphere that took the position between Earth and Jupiter to do battle with their enemies. The 200 angels were trying to repair the sphere because something was tearing it apart. As they were repairing the volcanoes, their enemies came to do battle and draw them away from the sphere. The planet was destined to be destroyed by the god of gods. After its destruction the 200 angels were cast into Tartarus and all that remain unharmed from the battle was one moon of the the great sphere, Mars.

reply posted on 20-2-2006 @ 04:50 AM by T0by

I clicked the first link and saw 'This star has been etched into this rock most likely by intelligent individuals'
Yes.. intelligent....oooga booga lets carve on stone. is good. will pass knowledge. i r wisdom.
Then they go on to say this is proof of life on mars. This fuzzy circle, oddly fuzzy compard to the others.
Okay that's enough for me.

reply posted on 20-2-2006 @ 05:02 PM by Stari

Originally posted by encinoman
I personly think atlantiens are real because just the other day on the history channel i was watching a show that said that they found a tomb under the left paw of the sphinx that contained a chest of some kind that was thought to contain a scroll that said something about atlantis but the egyptian government closed the dig for some obserd reason but what i think is that they know something we dont and they are trying to cover it up so we dont find out anymore than what we know till the time is right

[edit on 19-2-2006 by encinoman]

Hi encinoman, do you remember the name of this documentary?

reply posted on 20-2-2006 @ 07:02 PM by Harte

Originally posted by Stari
Ok Harte listen, I have read both Critias and Timaeus. I actually have them both printed up and read them about a year and a half ago.

Pardon me, Stari. The following statement led me to believe that you had not read Plato:

Plato most likely new that Solon meant a civilization that lived in the area where Athens resided so knowing that Athens most likely came from that civilization and then the civilization before that and so on.... he just for all intended purposes called them Athens.

See, Plato did say something similar to this:

In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene...

For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven...
Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. (Ed. - Athena) She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.

But there are no 9,500 year old cities in Egypt. And there is no 10,500 year old city in or around Athens.
Also:

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end.

Unfortunately, though this priest is supposedly talking to Solon sometime around 560 BC, a period from which a great many artifacts survive, no such deeds are recorded in any Egyptian histories ever found.

Originally posted by StariSince then I have read lots of other books. I have watched documentary upon documentary. I have searched through websites of people with way out ideas that I could never believe in and I have read over websites from people who makes sense. I have never changed the timeline for which Plato states Atlantis existed. You can twist things all you want but it will not change the facts.

First, books and documentaries are written and/or filmed to make money. The market for pseudoarchaeology is at least ten times greater than the market for the real thing.
Secondly, I'm not twisting anything. It is you that is doing the twisting. We've gone from some geomagnetic flip 12, 000 years ago that geophysicists know nothing about, yet you somehow are completely informed on, through "well, what Plato meant was...", to you denying you said the following:

Now let's look at Atlantis. That was a time frame of perhaps 30 to 50 thousand years ago.

There's nothing in Plato about this. You got it from one of the con artists who made it up, or you just made it up yourself. And then tried to tell me "I have never changed the timeline for which Plato states Atlantis existed." Who's twisting what around here?

Originally posted by StariI am the one who started this thread and it was started for those people who believe that Atlantis once existed. I wanted their opinions on whether or not Atlantis could have come from another planet, maybe from within our own solar system. So you are saying that I have to come up with proof on why Atlantis existed? You are the one who came into a thread that I started and you are the none believer in an advanced ancient civilization that I believe in, so you are the one who should show your proof, evidence, not me. So do not come to this thread and tell me that I have not done my research just because you do not believe in Atlantis.

Yes, you statred this thread. What of it? Stari, you don't get to pick and choose what opinions will be posted in threads at ATS. I'm not saying you have to come up with evidence. Just that if anyone has to, it's you. You are the one making the extreme claim here. I'm saying there's no evidence, I'm not required to prove that there's no evidence. If you don't agree with me, then all you have to do is provide some evidence and, BAM, I'm refuted, right?
Also, it is not your prerogative to decide what threads I may or may not post in, nor what the content of my posts may be. You really should try to get over that fascist attitude. You claim "open mindedness" yet refuse to allow a fair hearing of the facts?

Originally posted by StariI am done arguing with you. That is not what this thread was all about. You have turned it into an arguement on whether Atlantis ever existed. For me and alot of people who research into geology, archeology and anthropology it did exist. And it existed around 12,500 years ago.

You may well be done arguing with me. But it remains my opinion that one should first at least attempt to establish the existence of Atlantis before attributing Atlantis to Martian immigrants.
And the existence of Atlantis is hardly ever debated at all among people that actually do research in the fields you mention here. The subject absolutely almost never comes up.

Originally posted by StariReading Madame Blavatski, Robert Schoch, Hancock, VonDaniken, Solon, Emery, Cayce, and Hawass is not enough to get the full picture.

Sorry, but I believe it is, as long as you include Plato (the only ancient source), who you forgot to mention. The list I give represents a fairly balanced view of both sides of this non-issue. What further studies would you recommend that might sway me more toward your way of thinking in this matter?

Originally posted by StariYou said is the simularities in pyramids my proof in atlantis? No.. I do not have proof. No one has proof. Proof will not be found until the city is actually found, that is what makes Plato's story a myth, or a story. Just like Troy used to be. You need to study geology, archeology and anthropology, then you may get a bigger picture of what happend in the world way back in the past. Geology can tell a person alot.

Well, at least you've realized the difference between "proof" and evidence. I rarely achieve even that much in such a trusting naive and easily misled Atlantis-head such as yourself.

I guess I'll leave you alone, as long as my point's been made. But I still suggest you peruse the links in the Atlantis "sticky" thread. Lots of good arguments in there, better ones than you've made here. You might adopt one of them the next time you have to argue with someone like me.

Harte

reply posted on 20-2-2006 @ 07:49 PM by T0by

Yes there are 2 types of posts.
Ones that ask the questions, and thoughts of others. and...
Ones that make extreme claims. make an extreme claim without good data and you're probably going to be flamed badly.

This is an example of a question I posted, not an extreme claim.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Save the space bunny.....please.

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 03:40 AM by Darkmind

Originally posted by encinoman
I personly think atlantiens are real because just the other day on the history channel i was watching a show that said that they found a tomb under the left paw of the sphinx that contained a chest of some kind that was thought to contain a scroll that said something about atlantis but the egyptian government closed the dig for some obserd reason but what i think is that they know something we dont and they are trying to cover it up so we dont find out anymore than what we know till the time is right

[edit on 19-2-2006 by encinoman]

I think that this is based on a ground radar survey of the plateau that might have indicated an anomoly under the paw of the sphinx. Speculative at best. Who said that it contains a scroll as well? Isn't this based on another Cayce 'prophecy' and if it is, it's BS.
PROOF! We need proof. And sorry Stari, but there is no corresponding myth about Atlantis in any other culture from that time. You cannot take one mention by Plato and extrapolate an entire history from it. The timeline is wacky, there is no proof on the ground and there is no proof on Mars.
Oh, and one more thing - if the pieces of the asteroid belt were gathered togather you would not have enough mass to create a viable body. Maybe a small and lumpy planetoid, but certainly no Mars, let alone Earth.

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 06:23 PM by encinoman

On this history program the archeologists di use a ground radar servey thing but they were also able to dig enought to have the camera see throught a crack in the wall and was able to see a chest and like i said was thought to contain a scroll that contained information about atlantis

And sorry stari i dont remember the name but i think and i cannot be sure but i think it was modern marvles

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 07:02 PM by encinoman

i think that not only did the atlantians pass their knowlage on to the egyptians but they became there leaders or also useally known as their pheros ( sorry for the bad spelling ) because the atlantians were known to have special powers in many theories and the ancien at eygiptians were also known to have special powers like power over the dead and power over the living or power over night and day there fore there is a link between the two so thats why i think atlantians were the eygiptian pheros

stari what is the shape or more specificly what does the hyroglyph look like

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 07:08 PM by encinoman

Another one of my theories is the down fall of atlantis was caused by an atlantian of even atlantians because where there is a good side there is always a dark side take the government for example

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 11:24 PM by Stari

Originally posted by Harte

But there are no 9,500 year old cities in Egypt. And there is no 10,500 year old city in or around Athens..

Um, I think that is not true. What about the dating of the Sphinx? It was built before Egypt went through its wet period where the Sphinx inclosure was full of water for a very long time. The wet period ended around 10,000 years ago according to Boston University geologist Robert Schoch.

Originally posted by Harte

Unfortunately, though this priest is supposedly talking to Solon sometime around 560 BC, a period from which a great many artifacts survive, no such deeds are recorded in any Egyptian histories ever found.

Once again, if Egypt went through a wet period and only ended in 10,000 then it stands to reason that hardly anything would be left of a civilization.

Originally posted by Harte

Secondly, I'm not twisting anything. It is you that is doing the twisting. We've gone from some geomagnetic flip 12, 000 years ago that geophysicists know nothing about, yet you somehow are completely informed on, through "well, what Plato meant was...", to you denying you said the following:

Now let's look at Atlantis. That was a time frame of perhaps 30 to 50 thousand years ago.

Scientists say that they believe, because it is all speculation, that the bottleneck ended around 10,000 years ago and they do not even know what started the bottleneck, I am speculating that it could have been due to the flip in the magnetic field. Sorry I didnt make that clearer.

Originally posted by Harte

There's nothing in Plato about this. You got it from one of the con artists who made it up, or you just made it up yourself. And then tried to tell me "I have never changed the timeline for which Plato states Atlantis existed." Who's twisting what around here?

I am saying here that Atlantis could have began around 50,000 years ago and then ended around the time frame of what Plato said. You are really twisting things here.. No one would think that Atlantis just came to be at 10,500 years ago and then poof gone in the same year. They were an old civilization. This is what I meant.

Originally posted by Harte

Yes, you statred this thread. What of it? Stari, you don't get to pick and choose what opinions will be posted in threads at ATS. I'm not saying you have to come up with evidence. Just that if anyone has to, it's you. You are the one making the extreme claim here. I'm saying there's no evidence, I'm not required to prove that there's no evidence. If you don't agree with me, then all you have to do is provide some evidence and, BAM, I'm refuted, right?

I'm sorry, I am new to these boards, but I could have swarn that my welcome email from the moderators of these forums said to stick to the topics. Am I mistaken moderators?

Originally posted by Harte

You may well be done arguing with me. But it remains my opinion that one should first at least attempt to establish the existence of Atlantis before attributing Atlantis to Martian immigrants.

That is because if it is mentioned then they are laughed out of sience from those who refuse to look at all the facts.

Originally posted by Harte

Sorry, but I believe it is, as long as you include Plato (the only ancient source), who you forgot to mention. The list I give represents a fairly balanced view of both sides of this non-issue. What further studies would you recommend that might sway me more toward your way of thinking in this matter?

I am not here to sway anyones thoughts. I am here only to get input from those people who have done their homework and have come to the same conclusion as I have. You can think what ever you wish.

Originally posted by Harte

Well, at least you've realized the difference between "proof" and evidence. I rarely achieve even that much in such a trusting naive and easily misled Atlantis-head such as yourself.

Name calling.. wow, you are a low person to do that. I thought I was debating with a intelligent human.

Originally posted by Harte

I guess I'll leave you alone

Good now the rest of us can get down to some serious business

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 11:29 PM by Stari

Originally posted by T0by
Yes there are 2 types of posts.
Ones that ask the questions, and thoughts of others. and...
Ones that make extreme claims. make an extreme claim without good data and you're probably going to be flamed badly.

This is an example of a question I posted, not an extreme claim.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Save the space bunny.....please.

Ya, I saw all about that. I follow Mars Missions and I know of enterprisemission. Now he is a good example of taking things and getting out of hand. That is debris that fell off from the equipment of either the lander base or the rover.. I think the lander base.

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 11:42 PM by Stari

Originally posted by Darkmind
I think that this is based on a ground radar survey of the plateau that might have indicated an anomoly under the paw of the sphinx. Speculative at best. Who said that it contains a scroll as well? Isn't this based on another Cayce 'prophecy' and if it is, it's BS.
PROOF! We need proof. And sorry Stari, but there is no corresponding myth about Atlantis in any other culture from that time. You cannot take one mention by Plato and extrapolate an entire history from it. The timeline is wacky, there is no proof on the ground and there is no proof on Mars.
Oh, and one more thing - if the pieces of the asteroid belt were gathered togather you would not have enough mass to create a viable body. Maybe a small and lumpy planetoid, but certainly no Mars, let alone Earth.

Not everything that Cayce said is BS. Although I do take everything he said with a grain of salt. I like proof too, but sometimes you have to speculate. Cayce did get the bimini road correct though. You gotta give him that one. Or at least I do.

As far as Mars goes. I do believe from the images that I have gathered that there used to be some kind of civilization that once lived there. I am just wanting peoples opinions on whether or not it could be Atlanteans.

I also agree with you on the asteroid belt. There is not enough rocks there to create an entire planet.

reply posted on 21-2-2006 @ 11:49 PM by Stari

Originally posted by encinoman
stari what is the shape or more specificly what does the hyroglyph look like

Here is a link to it: www.marsview.com...

When I found this the original article was saying that it is a terrestrial sea biscuits and sand dollars. I knew that I had seen that symbol before in my research so I went back over tons of data till I found it. Now I am currently going through images to find other symbols. I would say with all of the other images found by me and other researchers that intelligent life once lived on Mars. Even tonight I found 2 more images with what might be a bug flying around. If it were dirt flying then there would be more than just one spec. At least in my opinion. If wind is going to pick up just one piece of dirt and fly it in the air then I want to know what is making the rest of the dirt on the ground stay put? Any ideas?

reply posted on 22-2-2006 @ 06:18 AM by identitynone

I am new to this type of forum. However, this debate has drawn me in for it revolves around a topic i have been studying and researching for many years. The prospect that the atlanteans may have come from another planet is not compleately obsurd, but it is not from where they came that is of importance.
Concider this:
Allow yourself to imagine if you will a world not completely unlike our own, technology rules, fossil fuels depleated and the planet being unable to support life. A minority move to another planet, (what they attempting to do at present.) set up another civilisation and flourish. The earth dies, along with all its inhabitance. Thus the beginning of the new world as history tells us.
The atlanteans as we know them are seen to be technologically advanced because they had hundreds of thousands of years of a prior civilisation guide them, only giving the new people of earth small pieces of information to help along the way.
Why do we not know of this? Simple. If the masses knew that the person beside them could be of another race, with different motives. Would calm be the talk of the day? I would say not. You would have a complete social breakdown. Hysteria to say the least.
So when we speak of the atlanteans besure to look a 360 degree circle before judging their existence, you never know one could be standing right before you.

Or posting on this very page!!!!!!!

reply posted on 22-2-2006 @ 07:46 AM by Valorian

I belong to a strain of thought that may be laughed at or ridiculed by the not-so-mentally adventurous...

The European race/culture were what we call Atlanteans from the planet Vulcan which is not so disimilar to what we see on Startrek and co...

The African race/culture were actually the original peoples of Earth/Ea/Gia
who were eventually used by ancient cultures to do there bidding with mining etc - possibly used by the ANUNNAKI to mine gold and minerals

The Oriental race/culture were actually from a planet named Nippon which is a word still used today in their culture

If you think about it has some grounding to it based on the VERY different outlook on society and how the cultures seem to clash on diverse topics and strains of thought...

The reason for the 3 cultures being here is plan to find a common denominator within the grand scheme of Life to see how all 3 interact and possibly get on - lets call it a social experiment on a Cosmic level.

Well...thats my 2 cents worth

Would be interesting to hear others thoughts on what I have discussed.

reply posted on 22-2-2006 @ 08:26 AM by Darkmind

Originally posted by Valorian
The European race/culture were what we call Atlanteans from the planet Vulcan which is not so disimilar to what we see on Startrek and co...

The African race/culture were actually the original peoples of Earth/Ea/Gia
who were eventually used by ancient cultures to do there bidding with mining etc - possibly used by the ANUNNAKI to mine gold and minerals

The Oriental race/culture were actually from a planet named Nippon which is a word still used today in their culture

If you think about it has some grounding to it based on the VERY different outlook on society and how the cultures seem to clash on diverse topics and strains of thought...

The reason for the 3 cultures being here is plan to find a common denominator within the grand scheme of Life to see how all 3 interact and possibly get on - lets call it a social experiment on a Cosmic level.

I've never heard of those two other planets, and the odds of parallel evolution on different worlds resulting in three species of human life that can interbreed with other are so ridiculously high that they beggar belief. So no, I don't think that that's possible. Impossible more like. We have three cultural strains because of time, distance and insularity. There are chinese people with green eyes and red hair because my ancesters, the Celts, wandered everywhere, including all the way to the Western borders of China. I'll try and find a link for that if I can - it's a fascinating subject.
And if the Europeans are Atlanteans from another planet where is the proof? And wouldn't that also make the Athenians who fought them also Europeans?
The only mention of Atlantis is in Plato's work. No other place in the entire world. You can spin out every theory you like, but at some point you come down to the cold hard absence of proof on the ground. Mankind is a very careless species - we leave our graffiti everywhere. We write, we tell legends, we extrapolate moonbeams from lemons. And the only mention about Atlantis comes from Plato.