Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl

What I'm asking for is a brief education on these Atlantians, from your knowledge.

I have read both Critias and Timaous a long time ago. That is what made me decide to start really cracking down and investigate if it was even feasible for a lost civilization to have flurished so long ago. Plato stated that all that is left of this civilization are islands in the shape of a ring. But it is not excessible, well at least not in Platos time. Plato stated that where Atlantis sank you would have to travel through an impenatrable mud or muck. He also stated through out the entire dialogs that he was serious and this was not fiction. He continually states what he had writen was true. This is not a man who was writing pure myth. Let's not forget about the lost city of Troy. It was finally found by Shleman. And many scientists thought he was crazy for looking for it

Originally posted by Groggy

I think civilisations in the Middle-ages also build their city's in ONE 'ring'.
They started building the city around one point, wich I believe was a market or something similar. They also had little canals into their city etc..

Do you have some examples of cities that where built like this?

Medevial cities being usally ringed shaped. There are two major types of building patterns for those cities.

The first is a standard ring. In comes the land owner, placing his position and the neccassary withing walls for defense (and on a suitable hill if one was available). Then, around the walls, crop up businesses and industries. If the lord wishes so, he may find enough value in those businesses (to tax) to build a smaller wall around them for protection. This can be done multiple times, leading to multiple rings. Usually the closer to the center of the ring, the wealthier the people there.

The other idea is to not have to defend four sides. Usually frontal assualts were the main, but some wiser commanders would attack various portions of the wall, or hold troops in reserves while leading a siege from one point and as the defenders massed there sending the 2nd unit to gain easy access from another point. (Even in the Ring pattern you can 'siphon' many by doing the old Moat and Gate trick, having only one entrance into the walls even though you build completely around the walls.) So you find a cliff face that one must scale, or place yourself against a side of a cliff to use as a wall, or use a forest or lake. (Water was hard to fight from, as you were an open target and had to unboard to truly be effective, assuming you aren't on a major Sea. Forest were good because a large mass of troops couldn't gather and march in unison, though small group tactics could be effective the smaller units simply couldn't be as destructive. Hard to get things like Rams and Catapults through forest as well).

that he got his information from the Egyptians. He was given these stories on trips to the Library of Alexandria, if I recall correctly.

He admitted having no first hand knowledge of Atlantis, or of Atlantians. He merely accepted the Egyptians recount of this history and recorded it as a Historian. The Egyptians were a creadible source, laying claim to being the oldest civilazation around (a claim they were VERY proud of). This tale could have been told as 'Truth' to Plato to show the granduer of Egyptian Knowledge to an extent that even one so wise as Plato would be in wonder at such knowledge. It could be, that to the Egyptians, Atlantis was only a POSSIBILITY that they were still debate about. Upon receiving such a guest as Plato, they pulled the story out and put emphesis on it being fact for more appreciation of the Egyptian knowledge.

It's like a Hunter in the woods. He sees something resembling a deer, and he fires. He knows (thinks) he hit it, because it was a clean shot. He sees it run (as even a shot deer will do before dying) and goes to track it. He finds blood, but never the animal.

His friend comes over for steak and a beer. "How'd the hunting trip go?" Well, saying *I think I shot a deer, but I couldn't find it" isn't much of a story. Especially for an accomplished hunter. Instead, saying "Man, this was an 24 pointer if it was a 4. Biggest dang deer I ever seen. Fierce, it was. Caught it out in the open after waiting 3 hours in the snow, barely breathing so not to alert it. Finally it came out of the wood line, in all it's glory, to take the corn I left out in the field. I tell you, I hit that big ol' deer square in the chest, where he had a big white diamond on his front. Saw the blood start flowing on the hit. But when I lowered my rifle to look with out the scope, I was shocked. He just stood there, steely eying me! After about a minute he just turned, bleeding out that wound in his chest, and ran back to the woods. Never found him! Took one square to the chest and was so big a bullet couldn't lay him down! Most amazing thing I ever saw!" And so the Tale Of The Magnificant Stag Of Redneckville becomes truth, to make a great tale amonst a noteworthy peer.

Perhaps there were things that made logical sense. The Egyptians had found/heard of some islands, and had been given knowledge on some things. As conclusions from a distance things became more than they were. Perhaps this was considered 'Fringe' even amonst those Egyptians, yet when Plato came the tale was to good not to share, and sounded better without always saying "Could be, might have happened".

Plato respected the Egyptians and their History, so he took them for their word. Never did he state that Atlantis was a view he held, merely that the history was given to him by the Egyptians, who had convincing maps and histories for the tale. Why would anyone doubt the validity of the Egyptians knowledge at that time? Must be true.

Now, I know that gets us half way to no where. But this is why I state that story. I'm looking to be educated on Atlantis. What evidance supports such a thing existed? The size of the country given by Plato fits nothing above or below water in the Atlantic. No remains have been found, and all claimed remains have been found false (though most are remains, merely from suken Greek ships and the such). The theory that the position of Atlantis was in the Carribian has been debunked, as well.

Now, I'm not saying Atlantis didn't exist. In fact, I would love if it did. So what I'm asking for, if you will, is sort of a remedial course on Atlantis so we can see if their is any POSSIBILITY that such a place could have existed.

the Elder. I knew Plato received the story. I thought he received it in Egypt, and the name Critias is surely the name I place with the telling of the story. I assumed (wrong to do, I know) that he worked in the Library (some emmissaries and such stayed on in positions to continue to learn the culture, etc.) and that it was he, in the presense of other Royal Egyptians, that depicted the tale to Plato.

This is why I feel that perhaps to Critias, this was all a THEORY. But in front of that audiance he could not offend the Egyptians History and told it to Plato as fact. Critias said he had seen maps, and Plato took him at his word (why would he lie?) I do not recall any written material or such, merely non-Atlantian maps of Atlantis. (I forget who has suppossedly seen it first hand to draft such maps). Through the Strait of Gilbitar (sp?) and all that.

The maps Plato did not see, but was told of and he accepted that. Perhaps the son of Critias did tell Plato, which then would mean Plato didn't have to be in Egypt to find out about it.

Thank you for clearing some things up for me. I still stand that Plato stating them as fact was not HIS take, merely the Historian speaking for those who told the tale and STATED IT AS FACT.

Your theory is quite possible.

While Plato tells the Atlantis story from the Mediterranean legends, there is a corroborating legend from the American side of the Atlanti-c Ocean.

Cherokee (Tsalagi Aniyunwiya) tribal legend states:

In The Long, Long Ago, The People From The Stars Came To Elohimona, The Land Of Atlantis...

I see three possibilities.

1. Our Ancestors were making it all up (hey, we moderns wrote Star Trek, didn't we?).
   
2. Our Ancestors had colonies in the Solar System. War and/or natural disasters kicked us back to the Stone Age.
   
3. Our Ancestors were interstellar colonists- or the servants of the Colonists.
   

To sum up, Cherokee legend claims that the Cherokee People are Atlanteans, and that their origin was from Among The Stars.

Remember, we were telling this story long before Columbus and De Soto arrived- long before modern Science Fiction.

(Expect Flame War to begin about now. Byrd? Despite the debunkers, I grew up hearing these stories around desert campfires at tribal gatherings in the Twentieth Century, not from New Age books.)

Wado, thank you for your research,
-=Chakotay=-

Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
It's like a Hunter in the woods. He sees something resembling a deer, and he fires. He knows (thinks) he hit it, because it was a clean shot. He sees it run (as even a shot deer will do before dying) and goes to track it. He finds blood, but never the animal.

His friend comes over for steak and a beer. "How'd the hunting trip go?" Well, saying *I think I shot a deer, but I couldn't find it" isn't much of a story. Especially for an accomplished hunter. Instead, saying "Man, this was an 24 pointer if it was a 4. Biggest dang deer I ever seen. Fierce, it was. Caught it out in the open after waiting 3 hours in the snow, barely breathing so not to alert it. Finally it came out of the wood line, in all it's glory, to take the corn I left out in the field. I tell you, I hit that big ol' deer square in the chest, where he had a big white diamond on his front. Saw the blood start flowing on the hit. But when I lowered my rifle to look with out the scope, I was shocked. He just stood there, steely eying me! After about a minute he just turned, bleeding out that wound in his chest, and ran back to the woods. Never found him! Took one square to the chest and was so big a bullet couldn't lay him down! Most amazing thing I ever saw!" And so the Tale Of The Magnificant Stag Of Redneckville becomes truth, to make a great tale amonst a noteworthy peer.

Ok, that's a nice story.. a hunter are you? Anyhow.. your story ended exactly how the real story ended. The deer was shot and it ran off. Atlantis existed and was the greatest power on the planet at that time. Then something cataclysmic happened and Atlantis sank. I believe that Atlanteans came from the forth planet in our Solar System. There are artifacts on Mars from an ancient civilization.. where did they go? Is it coincidence that modern humans just rose up and became smart one day? I say no. There is a reason there are pyramids on Earth and on Mars (Cydonia). They were showing us where we come from.

As far as Plato goes.. he was telling a story that he heard from his father and grandfather and the story came from Solon an Egyptian priest. The Egyptian priests took knowledge very seriously. They would not tell a lie. And even if they embellished it a little like you did in your hunter story.. well it would still have the same results, just like your hunter story.

"I think I shot a deer" and "I shot the baddest mutha in the valley, and it just shrugged it off and walked away."

There is a difference in "There are ancient tales about a lost Civilazation" and "These tales are PROOF of a lost Civilazation".

Notice how sometimes the big fish gets bigger, or how no catch turns into a fish to begin with? Notice how a game winning Extra Point Kick on a nice warm night turns into a 60 yard Field Goal with time expiring in a Blizzard 30 years later? And that's just 30 years! Wait another 30 and the grand children will be talking about the Earth Quake during the Blizzard!

You say the Egyptians had no reason to lie, would not lie. Because they were priests, is your reasoning. Where is the logic in that? You do realize that certain Egyptian Rulers were killed, don't you? Do you realize who had the power to either do that or get people close enough to do that? Control of knowledge was their power, if they didn't continue to show great knowledge they wouldn't be needed. If you threatened that control, you could end up very dead. No complete society or caste is uncorrutable.

Sure, there was a story. (Homer spoke of the Illiad and the Oddesy and a great many things. Yes, some of these stories are BASED in truth, but you won't find the whole thing to be true by any stretch.) Either prior to Egypt or in Egypt, or more than likely in both places, the story was embellished. Whose to say some puny island wasn't Atlantis, but that's not how it sounded years later? Ever wonder why something the size Atlantis is desripted as being has never been found? Plenty of things that COULD be Atlantis, if only they were MUCH BIGGER, have been found... but nothing matching the right size. Hmm, perhaps Atlantis HAS been found, but it's not known to be that due to the exaggerated claims. Hell, for all we know Cuba could be Atlantis. It's surely west of the Strait of Gilbatar.

No, I have to disagree. Not knowing if you shot a dear, and stating factually that you shot a deer... these are different stories. Hence my story. (Nope, I'm not a hunter. I don't need them for food, and I don't see it as sport. Deers don't have rifles and bows to shoot back with. You go after a deer with a 12' knife, then call yourself a hunter.) To illustrate how things can become much more than they ever were... or were ever intended.

So, before we peg WHERE Atlanteans came from, let's see if they ever even existed on Earth first.

Wow Harte, You seem to criticize me for showing links to articles that I have found over the years proving that modern man has been around for a while now, at least longer than what scientists are willing to say. But where is all of your proof that this stuff is not true? All I read in your post where words.. and not nice ones either! If you are going to be mean at least have proof to back it all up!!

As far as the Paulina Zelitsky finding a lost city, you are right on the point that nothing was ever mentioned in the news again about her discovery. She was supposed to go back the following year and get pictures. I have not been able to find those on the Internet anywhere.. so if anyone knows where they might be please post that info here.. but even though I have not found any info yet about her findings does not mean that it is not of great importance. Cuba was paying her to find gold and treasure.. not lost cities.

When something is 'never heard about again', I now put much more credibility in its importance. The example I offer is that of Thomas Lee, an assistant curator of Indian Antiquities at the National Museum of Canada in Toronto. In the 1950's he found artifacts where 'he couldn't have!'. The result was his career ruined, find discredited and dismissed, and the site developed into a resort. It is in the book 'Ancient Mysteries' by Michael Baigent

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
When something is 'never heard about again', I now put much more credibility in its importance. The example I offer is that of Thomas Lee, an assistant curator of Indian Antiquities at the National Museum of Canada in Toronto. In the 1950's he found artifacts where 'he couldn't have!'. The result was his career ruined, find discredited and dismissed, and the site developed into a resort. It is in the book 'Ancient Mysteries' by Michael Baigent

So you dont think that zelitski's find was anything at all then? The sonar images where very impressive.

Almost every time I read of a find that is not able to be fit into our textbooks timeline, and would upset all the theories, it is killed.
Sorry that was not clear. Is there more you can share? Was Bimini part of it?

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

Its a interesting theory if Atlantis was the result of a advanced Martian civilization I would have to lean more towards a WMD/Martain made accident type end for Atlantis rather then natural event like floods and earthquakes.

The recent finds from NASA on mars are making odds past Mars life look better all the time. It also appears Mars change to hostile over a long peroid so I guess a advanced culture would have enough time to abandon ship since they were lucky enough to have a sweet planet like earth so close. But I think these event Liquid water on Mars happened many millions or billions of years ago.

Any race that could get to earth even from Mars at that time could also easily appear godlike to earlier humans with their technology

It is very possible. Anything beyond 10 000 years is possibly skewed since there are variables we can be sure we don't know of. Mars was killed by a huge bombardment like nothing earth has seen, and I hope that if there were folks there, they got away in time.
David Icke says they came here. And brought friends.........well not really friends. Life on Mars has been a near certainty in my view ever since years ago they found a meteorite from Mars that had half a dozen qualities that could signal life. Each one was not in itself proof of life, but the concentration of all of them in such a small area is quite suggestive to me.

Let's not mention David Icke, the man's a fruitcake. We're still faced with certain fundamental problems with the concept that life evolved on Mars. The only alleged places with 'ruins' is Cydonia, and that dog won't hunt in the wake of the new close-ups of the place. There are no other locations on the planet. Maybe there was life on Mars, but the place is now desolate and has been for millions of years. And even if life did emerge, there is little if any chance that it was anything like life on Earth. Different planets, different ecologies, different threats - different evolutionary pressures. No chance of it fitting in easily here and there are no major glitches to the fossil record which would show it up.
My biggest problem with the Atlantis theory is that according to it the Atlanteans had a massive empire - but their greatest enemy was Athens. What??? Athens did not exist as a major city 10,000 years before Solon heard the tale! Even if there was a mistake and it was 1,000 years, we're still talking about a small Mycenean stronghold. It makes very little sense - except if the tale was being used as an allegory. Plus the account breaks off abruptly in the Critias.