More Lies about Iran

Originally posted by ArchAngel
What stalling game is NK playing?
WE played the stalling game with our end of the Agreed Framework.

So, even when supposedly good-faith deals end up being a cover for secret weapons programs, and even when that is proven by the nation in question actually producing nuclear weapons, America is wrong- no matter what?

Oh look... there goes ArchAngel's credibility- everybody wave.

Nice to know where you stand though.

North Korea was not "allowed" to have nukes. It agreed to a plan and still kept right on developing their nuclear ambitions while the world took them at their word. It is the fault of the world community that we did not demand more verification of North Korea's actions. That is what giving the benefit of a doubt does when a nation has nuclear weapon's ambitions.

This is FALSE.

North Korea kept its end of The Agreed Framework all the way up to the point where we ened the compensating oil shipments, and put them in the 'Axis of Evil'.

They shut down their reactors, canned the fuel rods, ended construction on their new reactor, allowed IAEA inspections, and IAEA seals to be placed on their equipment and for monitoring equipment to be installed.

Included in our end of the agreement was for two light water reactors to be built in NK.

They were supposed to be finished already.

Where are they???

The only proof that they had done anything different from what they said is the word of James Kelly.

He said they admitted to having an Uranium Enrichment Program.

NK said that he was mistaken, and all they said was that they were entitled to one under the IAEA, but they were willing to forego it in exchange for a security agreement.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

So, even when supposedly good-faith deals end up being a cover for secret weapons programs, and even when that is proven by the nation in question actually producing nuclear weapons, America is wrong- no matter what?

Oh look... there goes ArchAngel's credibility- everybody wave.

Nice to know where you stand though.

You really do not understand the situation.

Over 10 years ago NK was on the brink of being able to create Nuclear Weapons.

Jimmy Carter was sent in to make a deal.

The Agreed Framework linked above was the result.

The nuclear material that is currently in North Koreas weapons was still within the spent reactor fuel rods where they had sat for a decade.

Until GWB ended the fuel shipments thereby violating the agreement.

They could have extracted the Plutonium 10 years ago.

The 'Secret Weapons Program' that you refer to was well known, and under IAEA seal.

Had we kept our end of the agreement NK would not have nuclear weapons today.

Graphite Moderated Reactors are cooled by light water and thus require low-enriched Uranium. The requirement of a freeze on the reactors and related facilities clearly would apply also to their Uranium enrichment facilities.

Here we go again with diplomacy at it's finest- water down the language to create ambiguities- break the deal, and there's just enough wiggle room in the language to support whatever prejudicial notion any onlooker may have as to who is right.

Edit to add:
One more time, just to remind you, THEY BUILT THE WEAPONS. If you want to defend Iran go ahead- you're free to do it here and you're REQUIRED to do it over there, so we all agree that much. As for North Korea though- the facts are in. Your position in regards to Iran has you cornered on the wrong side of history in regards to North Korea.

[edit on 23-1-2006 by The Vagabond]

The requirement of a freeze on the reactors and related facilities clearly would apply also to their Uranium enrichment facilities.

PLEASE show us all where it was required.

As shown on previous pages the Paris Agreement was non-binding.

There is no UN resolution either.

As for North Korea though- the facts are in.

PLEASE enlighten us to the facts.

What is the source for the idea that NK has an existing Secret Uranium Enrichment Facility?

The facts are that the source is the word of one old man with plenty of motive to lie.

[edit on 23-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

North Korea had a long history of not being forthcomming even before the Agreed Framework. Just two years after the Agreed Framework this event happened. The reason the Agreed Framework failed is that North Korea continued to work on it ambitions to be a member of the "nuclear club" throughout the time period of the framework..

External Source
North Korea Nuclear/Missle Chronology
North Korea announces it will withhold from the IAEA any new nuclear information until the light-water reactors are finished and operating, a period of 10 years or more.

July 1998: The U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) reports that North Korea is refusing to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors full access to its nuclear sites.

Where do you think Iran got the gameplan on how to delay and deceive?


[edit on 23-1-2006 by pavil]

[edit on 23-1-2006 by pavil]

[edit on 23-1-2006 by pavil]

Where do you think Iran got the gameplan on how to delay and deceive?

The Gameplan would be compared to North Korea about 13 years ago.

We are about at that same point now with Iran.

Precedant has been established.

If you make a deal with America do not expect America to keep its end of the bargain.

The Two nuclear Reactors that 12 years ago we promised to build for them are nothing but parts of the concrete foundations.

If we had kept our word in our 1994 agreement with NK there would have been a better chance for a solution with Iran today, but the diplomatic currency was wasted.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Precedant has been established.
If you make a deal with America do not expect America to keep its end of the bargain.

You are right AA, do not expect America to keep it's end of the bargain...... especially if you continue to develop your nuclear weapons program even while protesting that you have no nuclear weapon ambitions.

External Source

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA: For the last three years we have been doing intensive verification in Iran, and even after three years I am not yet in a position to make a judgment on the peaceful nature of the [nuclear] program. We still need to assure ourselves through access to documents, individuals [and] locations that we have seen all that we ought to see and that there is nothing fishy, if you like, about the program.

...

DICKEY: Do you have any indication that there is some other completely separate Iranian nuclear-weapons program?
ELBARADEI: No, we don´t. But I won´t exclude that possibility.

Mod Edit: New External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 23/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

So you believe Bush then? Iran is a threat?

Even when he lied about simular things before, and admittedly so?(Iraq, WMDs)

Even when top world leaders, like Russian General Leonid Ivashov, come out publically stating the war on terror is a fraud.

www.infowars.com...

Even when it has been proven that 9/11 was an inside job.

www.infowars.com...

Even when they continue to go to the UN for ''action'' on what to do with Iran. This is also largely about establishing the UN as the supreme power, the big decision maker, the big kahuna....the world government in making.

Even though Bush has said that the US constitution is a ''goddamn piece of paper.''

www.capitolhillblue.com...

Your US constitution, that which grants you your freedoms against he federal government, that which he took an oath to ''preserve, protect, and defend''....he calls it a ''goddamn piece of paper.'' Unbelievable!

So yea, keep playing follow the leader, and just do whatever your president says. Dont think for yourself, let your government think for you. Go off to Iran and blow them away, thats what they want. Get behind the flag and say how much you support the troops, yet you are going nowhere. Keep going back to that republican-democrat divide and control system, the same thing will happen anyways.

Keep following the white rabbit, people. Keep being scared into submission.

(By the way, Im speaking in universal terms here, not to any one person. Seems some people cant figure that out)



[edit on 24-1-2006 by LetKnowledgeDrop]

Originally posted by LetKnowledgeDrop
So you believe Bush then? Iran is a threat?

Even when he lied about simular things before, and admittedly so?(Iraq, WMDs)

Even when top world leaders, like Russian General Leonid Ivashov, come out publically stating the war on terror is a fraud.

[edit on 24-1-2006 by LetKnowledgeDrop]

Open your eyes and ears it is not just the US that is worried about Iran's nulcear weapons ambitions. Seems the EU, Russia and IAEA are concerned as well.

Quoting a former Joint Chief of Staff does not make him a "top world leader" IMO.

For those of you who have been living under a rock the past decade with the NK situation that still goes on today, Iran is playing exactly like North Korea did, and its working once again. Cooperate, then defy, cooperate, then defy. Its classic, I dont blame them for using such tactics, the IAEA is a joke, they cant enforce their own rules, same as the UN. Both organizations are toothless. This is what you need to know about the Natanz Heavy-Water Facility:

Natanz Facility
-this gives quite a bit of information itself about the facility itself, and the activities going on around it.

Why on earth would they be trying to cover these facilities with earth? They already know that the US and other nations can find them, so whats the point in hiding them? Why wouldnt they just comply and show everyone their nuclear program if it is in fact, peaceful. Doesnt make sense. They obviously have something to hide and they know its too late to conceal that fact. The fact that they concealed their 18 year old nuclear program and wouldnt acknowledge it until they were caught up in something they couldnt talk their way out of. Why would they not accept Russias offer to process their nuclear fuel for them? None of it makes sense, the word has tried to work with them but they dont accept it. Is it pride, or do they really have something to conceal?

Why wouldnt they just comply and show everyone their nuclear program if it is in fact, peaceful. Doesnt make sense.

The reason it does not make sense is that you do not understand that they are in complete compliance with the NPT.

America is demanding that they have LESS than allowed under international law.

Iran is only asking for what they are entitled to have.

Why would they not accept Russias offer to process their nuclear fuel for them?

And Russia is to be trusted with the power to deprive Iran of electric power?

Ask the Ukraine if Russia always keeps the energy supply running....

[edit on 24-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

Originally posted by pavil

You are right AA, do not expect America to keep it's end of the bargain...... especially if you continue to develop your nuclear weapons program even while protesting that you have no nuclear weapon ambitions.

External Source

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA: For the last three years we have been doing intensive verification in Iran, and even after three years I am not yet in a position to make a judgment on the peaceful nature of the [nuclear] program. We still need to assure ourselves through access to documents, individuals [and] locations that we have seen all that we ought to see and that there is nothing fishy, if you like, about the program.

...

DICKEY: Do you have any indication that there is some other completely separate Iranian nuclear-weapons program?
ELBARADEI: No, we don´t. But I won´t exclude that possibility.

I don't see how this supports your supposition on Iran:'continue to develop your nuclear weapons program'

Quite the opposite.

There is not any indication that Iran has a seperate weapons program.

Why would any rational person use a source like this to support a false statement like that?

Its beyond me....

Originally posted by ArchAngel

I don't see how this supports your supposition on Iran:'continue to develop your nuclear weapons program'

Quite the opposite.

There is not any indication that Iran has a seperate weapons program.

Why would any rational person use a source like this to support a false statement like that?

Its beyond me....

I guess it is.

So the head of the IAEA can not say for sure after 3 years of investigating that Iran's nuclear plans are entirely peaceful.

Infact he can't exclude the posibility of a seperate nuclear arms program because of the continued lack of access to sites, people, documents ect the IAEA needs to make an accurate judgement.

Mohamed ElBaradei must be irrational too.

So the head of the IAEA can not say for sure after 3 years of investigating that Iran's nuclear plans are entirely peaceful.

Infact he can't exclude the posibility of a seperate nuclear arms program because of the continued lack of access to sites, people, documents ect the IAEA needs to make an accurate judgement.

You can't conclude that the CIA has aliens in their custody in a secret underground UFO hanger either.

You can't prove a negative.

The fact is the IAEA does not have any proof to the contrary in their own words.

There is no evidence Iran has a weapons program.

Everything they have is easily explainable, unless you are trying to explain to someone like you that wants war no matter the price.

[edit on 24-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

Iran could settle this once and for all by letting the IAEA have full unfettered access to the ALL the sites, records, people invovled.

If Iran really wants to avoid a confrontation it would do just that. As of yet they have not done so. The IAEA has even reported that they still have concerns over Iran's lack of full cooperation.

If Iran's nuclear program is entirely peacful, what does it have to hide?

Iran does have a history of concealment and deception involved with it's nuclear plans. That is why the World community is concerned.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Everything they have is easily explainable, unless you are trying to explain to someone like you that wants war no matter the price.

news.scotsman.com...
The news came from Mohamed El Baradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), who told a meeting of the 35-nation IAEA board in Vienna that the country was in possession of what appeared to be drawings of the core of an atomic warhead.
.....It (IRAN) described the discovery of the warhead documents as a "minor issue" that should not detract from the "tremendous progress achieved by joint co-operation of [the] IAEA and Iran" in clearing up questions about Tehran's nuclear programme.

I for one, am glad it is just a "minor issue" that Iran has been seeking Nuclear warhead plans.
I will sleep better knowing that they were just curious.

Originally posted by pavil
Iran could settle this once and for all by letting the IAEA have full unfettered access to the ALL the sites, records, people invovled.

If Iran really wants to avoid a confrontation it would do just that. As of yet they have not done so. The IAEA has even reported that they still have concerns over Iran's lack of full cooperation.

If Iran's nuclear program is entirely peacful, what does it have to hide?

Iran does have a history of concealment and deception involved with it's nuclear plans. That is why the World community is concerned.

Iran has allowed full access.

All the sites have been inspected numerous times.

They even allowed inspectors into their most secret military base.

The concerns while maybe being well founded have not yielded any evidence.

Everything they are doing is in compliance with the NPT, and logical for nuclear power production.

There is no 'somking gun'.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

It certainly wouldn't be the first time the US manufactured a reason to go to war for other purposes, would it?

Can you please give an example of this.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Boatphone

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

It certainly wouldn't be the first time the US manufactured a reason to go to war for other purposes, would it?

Can you please give an example of this.

-- Boat

The invasion of Iraq.

They knew all of their 'evidence' of WMD was debunked long before the invasion.

But you might never know that if you only get your information from western mainstream media....