ATS: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Host Debate on Holocaust.

Originally posted by subz

If these Zionist founders of Israel were atheist then hating them would not be anti-Jewish!

Of course it would be anti-jewish!

Please do NOT forget, that Jews are a people- and Judaism is a religion.

Originally posted by Riwka
Please do NOT forget, that Jews are a people- and Judaism is a religion.

Well...strictly speaking, there is no difference between them and everyone else so they are not really a people. It is these divisions that cause harm.

The fact Jews and Non-Jews can interbreed, shows they are the same as everyone else...

Also, where do you stand on my previous question?

I do have one more, are innocent people collateral damage if the intended target is a military one?

Please, stay on topic, starting right now.

Subz, you have clearly ignored what I have earlier said, that it is the Jews who die when "Zionism" is attacked.
You prefer to totally ignore the fact that the leader of Iran will kill all in Israel, if he get's his way and the weapons.

You prefer to play word games, totally ignoring what the reality is.

What would you say if it happens that Israel is again attacked and men, women and children are killed by the train loads? "Oops; I was wrong!"?

There is some serious racism going on here in the name of love and fairness, if you ask me.

By the way, I searched and searched for Zionist terror last night, but found nothing. Google never lets me down. Must have been a Zionist plot!

The leader of Iran will use this "debate" to rally and marshall the anti-semites and beat them into a frothy fury.

[edit on 17-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Thomas Crowne, there are also Non-Jews in Israel.

Source
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, at the end of 2004, of Israel's 6.9 million people, 76.2% were Jews, 19.5% Arabs, and 4.3% "others".

It is an insult to those who died, to claim they are all Jewish and I never thought I would see a blanket statement like that from you.

We are talking about Judaism and and the Jewish people tight now, Odium. I didn't think I'd ever see you not able to follow the point, Odium.

If you would like, we can discuss things other than that, in another thread, though. We could discuss the "Palestinian" who was jogging through an orthodox neighborhood on Shabbat, and was murdered by some lovely people who love Jews to death. He was wearing a head band that appeared to be the Jewish head thingie, and they killed him. They must have thought he was simply a Zionist!

Do you see how the Zionist/Jews thing works? Do you see how this particular man, with an agenda of death, is laughable for hosting a Holocaust conference? It seems totally laughable to me.

Originally posted by Riwka
Of course it would be anti-jewish!

Please do NOT forget, that Jews are a people- and Judaism is a religion.

No it wouldnt be anti-Jewish, are all Jews zionists? No they are not so being against Zionism is not anti-Jewish. You can't get any clearer logical truth than this.

It's like saying disliking Branch Davidians makes you anti-Christian because Branch Davidians were Christians. Which would be completely false because you dislike Branch Davidians, who happen to also be Christians.

So if all Jews are not zionists then when the Iranians are anti-zionist they are not being anti-semetic.

God sake, you seriously have to have the capacity to see such a basic concept as this.

Also if, as you claim, the Iranians are anti-Jewish then why do they tolerate the second largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel itself? Also why do they tolerate Jews inside the Iranian parliament? These arent trivial inconsistencies, it strikes at the very heart of the assertions that the Iranians are anti-semetic. It is a lie.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Subz, you have clearly ignored what I have earlier said, that it is the Jews who die when "Zionism" is attacked.

If it was violently attacked maybe. No different to muslims dying when terrorists are attacked, no tears shed there is there?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You prefer to totally ignore the fact that the leader of Iran will kill all in Israel, if he get's his way and the weapons.

Proof is a grand thing, prove any of that assertion TC. Prove that Iran is wanting nuclear weapons, prove that they are trying for nuclear weapons and prove that they would use them if they happend to obtain them. Assertion, after assertion, after assertion.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You prefer to play word games, totally ignoring what the reality is.

And you prefer to assert things you have no evidence to corroborate. The only reality im ignoring is the one you are making up.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
What would you say if it happens that Israel is again attacked and men, women and children are killed by the train loads? "Oops; I was wrong!"?

Well that is a hypothetical argument. Your answer to preventing that hypothetical is to bring about a very real attack on Iran and her people. How you ever could justify that is beyond me. Is the life of an Iranian less than that of an Israeli?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
There is some serious racism going on here in the name of love and fairness, if you ask me.

You're not wrong.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
By the way, I searched and searched for Zionist terror last night, but found nothing. Google never lets me down. Must have been a Zionist plot!

Well I just googled it and got:

1,480,000 for zionist terror. (0.52 seconds)

Google

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The leader of Iran will use this "debate" to rally and marshall the anti-semites and beat them into a frothy fury.

Prove it, prove the leader of Iran is anti-semetic for a start.

[edit on 17/1/06 by subz]

Thomas Crowne, how is your blanket statement any different from what those people did? Oh it didn't directly result in murder?

Nearly 1/4th of the people in Israel are not Jews, many of them will support the Zionist Movement and many of them will not. To go around claimnig only Jews die when Zionism is attacked is a direct insult at those who are not Jewish and it is diverting the topic as much as you claim I am.

To argue the Holocaust and Zionism can't be spoken about or discussed is an insult to those who were involved in WW2 and to those who died, because so many of them would want the truth to be told and while we deny the ability to discuss it we allow Nation's like Iran to spread such hate.

Subz, please try and discuss in a normal manner instead of the lazy quoting isolated portions of the conversation. I show enough respect to talk in paragraph forms, and you show the lack thereof by simply quoting bits and making mini-threads in this one.
Thjanks for the link, by the way, I didn't find even the anti-Semitic webs that you did. I won't even bother to discuss the hatred and BS propaganda that I found.

Odium,, can't you see that the rest of the region doesn't even care about the so-called "Palestinians" that they will not absorb, to kill the Muslims in Israel and the Christians is not even a sacrifice to them. If you recall (assuming you learned in the first place), Israel was very open and accomodating to the Arabs who lived there. They left on their own accord, and at the prompting of the invading Arab nations. So, do you think that the Iranian leader will care about those living there.

As far as stupid hypothetical assertions, it was the Iranian leader who called for the destruction of Israel. I did not say that and his saying that is not hypothetical.

As I said, and will say again if you tap dance around the truth or try and derail the topic, it is totally laughable that this guy could even be thought to be taken seriously. This should be taken deadly seriosuly, but not in such a manner.

By the way, Odium, you may put your "blanket" away, I have explained this to you, you should no longer be having such problems comprehending your error in assumption.

Got to go to work, now. Look forward to the enlightning reading I am sure will await me when I come home.

Thomas Crowne, the problem is Israel has said and done much of the same things that the present Iranian Government has done. Remember the Ha'aretz Newspaper story, covering the Israeli Official saying they would "Nuke Mecca" in 2002? I never did see the Israeli Government deny that article.

If Israel was honestly good for the Arab People and good towards them, we would see a different view placed onto them by many people but the fact is they desire not to be. The fact is, Iranian Govermnet is not as good to the Jewish People as they should be and the Israeli Government is not as good to the Arabic people as they should be. If they honestly desire to see such things, they would treat the people as equals and there would not be such segregation against Non-Jews as can be seen by the complaints by the Filipino Government and many others.

If you examine the history of the World, Segregation isn't a positive thing. Here is a small [30 page] report, which I suggest you have a look at: www.nuff.ox.ac.uk...

Arabs are second class citizens and we all know what that leads to - hatred.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Subz, please try and discuss in a normal manner instead of the lazy quoting isolated portions of the conversation.

Lazy quoting? I am responding to each and every point of your argument in a clear and concise manner. If thats not good enough for you then im sorry.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I show enough respect to talk in paragraph forms, and you show the lack thereof by simply quoting bits and making mini-threads in this one.

I show enough respect to provide sourced and corroborating evidence that backs up my posts. Would you show me the same courtesy and provide more than your learned opinion? Also can you inform me what the Iranian nuclear program has to do with this thread? Afterall, it was brought up by yourself, including diversionary discussions about Palestinian/Israeli relations. Are they on topic?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Thjanks for the link, by the way, I didn't find even the anti-Semitic webs that you did.

Do, pray tell, inform me what anti-semetic webs(ites) I found?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I won't even bother to discuss the hatred and BS propaganda that I found.

You mean the anti-semetic stuff of the anti-Iranian/muslim stuff your spouting here?

Organizations representing the victims of Nazi concentration camps on Monday condemned the Iranian president's questioning of the Holocaust.

Their statement was drawn up "on behalf of the survivors and the relatives of the dead" by the presidents of committees representing survivors of Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald/Dora, Dachau, Flossenbuerg, Mauthausen, Natzweiler-Struthof, Neuengamme, Ravensbrueck and Sachsenhausen.

"For the first time, the president of a United Nations member state has dared openly to spread publicly such views that deny the Holocaust," [the stetement] read.

The groups "call on all those with political responsibility in the whole world - and particularly in Europe, where most of the victims of the deadly lunacy of the Nazis were from - to condemn unanimously and unconditionally these unacceptable comments."

(Associated Press)

Once again, why can these debate not take place bar the sensitivities of Jewism members of society? Once again, why can one not argue against historical paradigms?

I'm not seeing a good answer to this question, only slips into attacking Iran for it's anti-semitism or useless conjecture regarding Zionism ambitions.

Luxifero

Once again, why can these debate not take place bar the sensitivities of Jewism members of society? Once again, why can one not argue against historical paradigms?

Because by accepting the premise that they are not outright contemptible, you give them a veneer of respectability. And you give the Iranian president a world stage on which to spew his racist bile.

I don't know how it could be stated any more clearly than that.

jsobecky, if we deny the ability to talk about a topic and to debate about a topic it falls into the hands of the "bigots". It makes it easier to show an agenda which may or may not be there.

The Iranian president holding a conference to assess the scale and consequences of the Holocaust is like Nazi Skinheads holding a conference discussing the legitimacy of having non-whites in America

The Iranian president holding a conference to assess the scale and consequences of the Holocaust is like Nazi Skinheads holding a conference discussing the legitimacy of having non-whites in America

That's a horrible analogy that asserts that the man is racist, and thereby all those that facilitate and engage in this debate are as well. Once again, this is simply a baseless attack, not enough creedence to provide objection to having debate. You're catering malignity for the Iranian president here, and though he has made his opinion clear on the nation-state of Isreal, it does not decry his obstinacy for debate over the praticularism of the holocaust.

Luxifero

Originally posted by Luxifero

The Iranian president holding a conference to assess the scale and consequences of the Holocaust is like Nazi Skinheads holding a conference discussing the legitimacy of having non-whites in America

That's a horrible analogy that asserts that the man is racist, and thereby all those that facilitate and engage in this debate are as well. Once again, this is simply a baseless attack, not enough creedence to provide objection to having debate. You're catering malignity for the Iranian president here, and though he has made his opinion clear on the nation-state of Isreal, it does not decry his obstinacy for debate over the praticularism of the holocaust.

Luxifero

Oh wait...

You're serious.

I am serious. I want to see this debate, and more importantly, I want to see serious substance from this man regardless of his obvious bastardly remarks which are hegemonic in western thought.

Luxifero

[edit on 18-1-2006 by Luxifero]