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SWAT team takes down child

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posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by SFRemmy
A Florida SWAT team was killed in to a middle school, after an 8th grader puled a gun and forced another kid into a closet.


I just noticed that.
Oops.



I guess that's what not sleeping for three days gets ys. Hah....sorry.




posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
Oooooooo.

Did these guys train with the new post-911 Air Marshalls?



There is a member of the State Police here in Pennsylvania who believed in trying non lethal means to resolve a situation. I would try to interview him for his opinions on this subject but his funeral was a couple of weeks ago.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by soficrow
Oooooooo.

Did these guys train with the new post-911 Air Marshalls?



There is a member of the State Police here in Pennsylvania who believed in trying non lethal means to resolve a situation. I would try to interview him for his opinions on this subject but his funeral was a couple of weeks ago.


let me guess. his killer didnt shoot him with a bean bag gun? or stun gun?
fight fire with fire i say, if your enemy has real bullets you get real bullets.

Also, i think the police did what they get paid for. they took control of the situation, evacuated the school and prevented alot of people potentially getting hurt or killed. (they didnt know he had a pellet gun until after they shot him) If you get a call saying a teen has a gun in a school you dont automatically think "Oh, he's a faker its not a real gun."
Lastly i recall someone saying that the high powered scopes used in sniper rifles could have seen that the gun was a pellet gun. The shooting happened in the school bathroom. where exactly would a sniper be positioned to get a shot? he was obviously shot by the cop he pointed the gun at.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some of these toy guns look just like the real ones. The only way to really tell that it’s a fake is by holding it, I’m pretty sure SWAT is not going to get that close .

Imagine telling which one of these is a fake and which one is real in that situation.









[edit on 13-1-2006 by WestPoint23]



www.cnn.com...
Ralph Penley was "angry" because he had spoken to police before he arrived at the school and told them Christopher did not have a real gun. Christopher's younger brother told school officials the same thing




You know that's pretty amazing but just by looking at each photo and not just glancing but actually studying them I still couldn't tell which was real or not. Personally I still think that the parents should hold some accountability for such actions as this. Granted at that his age he should have known better and it's truly sad what happened to him but the parents needed to go farther than just warning the police department that the weapon wasn't real. Seems like they're putting the blame on the police department and making them out to be the bad guys. It seems since Columbine that events like this are happening more often and it's a issue that I think needs to be looked at and not just discussed.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 10:03 PM
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I read about this in my local paper. Did they ever fire tear gas at the kid? That would be the first thing to do to end the situation peaceful, besides that you would need to shoot him to resolve the situation.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 10:13 PM
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Tear gas would have been a good idea, well, maybe not a good idea, but a better idea (certainly) than shooting the kid.

What about Tazers? I know they have Tazers in Fl., because they're in the papers once a week, getting used on disabled folks, pregnant women, small children, the elderly, and veterans.


The whole thing could have been avoided with better parenting and the steady influence of a responsible, meritous society. Since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, people have to demand more restraint on the part of law enforcement officers.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by zerotime
Not to get too far off topic, but I guess some of you are teens and object to be called children but sorry a 15 year old IS a child.

There is nothing wrong with playing with toy guns. I grew up playing war in my back yard with dozens of other children and none of us ever tried to hold real hostages or act in any other criminal ways. I’m sure this problem can be traced directly to the parents.


Right on man, I had a small forest in my backyard that we used to have war games with BBguns. We made up rules to ensure no one would get hurt, but it would definatly hurt. ;p Sorta like paintball with a high caliber bb gun.. ouchies.

We all knew how powerful and accurate our guns were and could take out a target from 70-80yards with high accuracy with a pellet. The guns were powerful enough that if used in a bad manner could kill someone.

So basically we all ran around trying to kill eachother without actually doing any killing. One time some chump felt the need to take it to the next level and actually assault someone with a pellet gun. (They could sever the skull if used in close range). He shot a kid in the leg at close range and the BB severed and broke his Tibia.

THOSE are the kids parents REALLY need to take a look at. And everytime some new kid joined in our games and pulled a stunt like that, we did our part and TOLD those parents exactly what went down.

You guys need to understand a pellet gun focused close range to someones neck could be fatal. The pellet will easily sever the skin, and major arties in the neck on its way into the spinal cord.

So basically I think they had this kid cornered and he was serious about killing this kid.

Maybe someone should tell his parents their kid is a raving lunatic and needs some disipline. But I guess its too late for that, this kid got himself in WAY over his head in this stunt and in my opinion, his ignorance of a pellet guns fatal attributes is no excuse. So basically he deserved it.

Who should be punished here is not the Police that did everything in their power to keep this criminal from killing another kid, but the parents that never noticed thier child is a criminal by actually being parents and part of their lives.


From what transpired is the parents never noticed their child was mad or upset enough to have actually done a stunt like this. And as a parent, there are very very loud tell-tale signs that your child is getting into the mix a little too deep for their own good. Attitudes change, their personal lives change, they're nervous, anxies, and very moody.

Cept these parents figured he could get himself out of his own problems instead of actually helping him.

And the headline reads:
"Nice job!
You killed your kid!"

But instead it reads:
"Meanie Police! Shoot before look! Child killed after standoff! Sue the police!"



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 11:17 PM
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Not sure if anyone else heard this, but I heard the kid was suicidal. He had told a friend that he was going to die that day, whether or not it was the cops shooting him, or him shooting himself.

As for it being the polices fault, I don't think that the police can just look at a person wielding a gun and determin it to be a lethal/non-lethal weapon right on the spot. I'm sure they weren't standing close enough to read the writing on the gun.

What do you expect to happen when a person is waving a gun, A GUN, pointing it at police officers and threatening to kill himself. I don't think the police thought, well this kid is a fake, he can't kill himself with a pellet gun. Police have killed suspects for much less than in this instance, i.e. the teenager on the street who was being stopped by police and when he pulled out his "gun", (to be read THREE MUSKATEERS CANDY BAR) he was shot and killed. In THAT instance it was the police's fault, in this instant, things went as they should have. Protect and serve.

Lastly, I think it is partially his parents fault for not seeing any signs of depression/suicidal thoughts. It truly is sad though that these parent's have to bury their own child in this situation. But at the same time, at least it was only one child with a pellet gun instead of 10 or 20 dead kids because of a real gun.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:47 AM
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IronMan
You're entitled to your opinion.

However, just scanning your post I could tell you haven't read all the information on this thread. I think you'd be well served to take another look at the evidence before passing judgement.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 03:03 AM
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Frosty, tear gas is quite possibly the worst possible solution. If it had been a real gun, what would have happened is the following:

1. Hostage-take shoots, kills hostage, chokes to death in short order because tear gas +small confined and unventilated area=asphyxiation.

or

2.Hostage taker doesn't shoot, both asphyxiate in minutes.

Wyrde, generally using a tazer on someone's face is inadvisable, and the effective range for a tazer is about ten feet (Maximum range is about three times that). Getting within ten feet of any armed suspect is a recipe for death. Hell, a knife is considered a lethal weapon at a distance of 20 feet or less.

Let's all remind ourselves that getting officers killed is not the solution to crime.

DE



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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The answer is right there...
the child was suicidal... that prevents much of what the police could have done here...

suicide by cop is an actual method, and it is growing as a preffered choice...
rarely can the police prevent this type, because the person isn't concerned about "resolving" the issue... they are actually trying to instigate a response...

the only thing IMO that they could have done different, is shoot the hand, in hopes that it would disarm him... maybe they didn't have that shot... (would require a clean shot with nothing in the background)

but what is sad, is that this childs troubles led him to this, without anyone trying to help him beforehand... I am sure their were signs...



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:28 AM
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Not trying to offend anyone here but all that crap you see in the movies about police officers being able to hit moving legs and arms with a gun from a distance is BS. It's much more difficult then it looks, also, the police are trained to hit center of mass, not arms fingers or toes. I don't know about you but I don't want a police officer thinking he’s a sniper and wasting valuable time trying to hit limbs while someone is attempting to kill people.


[edit on 16-1-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Its sad to see a young adult do this...but people are that...disturbed? No thats not the word...affected? No....thats not it ethier..fragile...yes thats a good word I think..

The police most likely didnt have a shot, but....when ever there is a wrong there needs to be blame...and the buck always stops to who pulled the trigger. Right or wrong , thats what happens now adays.

If they hadnt opened fire on him and eventually wore him down or grabbed it or subdued him it would be "well done"...



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23










[edit on 13-1-2006 by WestPoint23]


I could tell that the first and last were fake because of the trigger. Notice how they're different to the third.

Anyway, how come they weren't able to negotiate with the teenager?



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by mashup
I could tell that the first and last were fake because of the trigger. Notice how they're different to the third.

Anyway, how come they weren't able to negotiate with the teenager?

Some times you just cant get through to people...I mean no matter how long or how hard you try sometimes you will fail to get through....its a sad fact that negotiation is not a certain winner.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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DeusEx and LazarusTheLong have made some true points here about how some things work.

West....... We are trained to hit guns and other things IF.... (IF) we have the time to do so and if things around perment us to do so.
First thing you need to do is seal off the site, get others out of harms way, site up if one can set up a field of fire, try to negotiate. THAT takes time!!
You can not let to person walk around with a weapon so other officers stay with or in visual range of the person as to let others know whats going on.
That to is IF they have not shot at, or shot someone that is proof they mean to kill someone.
I was very upset when I see that someone gets killed over something like that. YES the Officers did there job! But I WISH things would have turned out better! I do know a lot about weapons and has seen first hand what all kinds can do in my job. BB guns CAN KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!
I for one would have taking a shot from the BB gun to try to disarm the kid!
I know that 90% of the people like this are just victims of society. I to work tons of hours about take one day a week to spend with my kids!
My Son is about the same age. I asked my Son what he thinks on this and He Said that the Kid must have wonted to die or something. I asked Him to about Me trying to disarm him. He said with full gear on, no problem!
but with out, NO WAY!
It's all about the time, and what going on with the other person and where things are going down. I was not there and somehow wish I was.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some of these toy guns look just like the real ones. The only way to really tell that it’s a fake is by holding it, I’m pretty sure SWAT is not going to get that close .


True. Companies are accountable for having produced pellet guns that look too much like firearms. I say new pellet guns on the markey that have colors and designs radically different than handguns to the point that they look like toys... Somebody might look stupid with these, but it's much better than having the cops thinking you're using a real 9mm.

[edit on 16/1/06 by Echtelion]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Echtelion
I say new pellet guns on the markey that have colors and designs radically different than handguns to the point that they look like toys... Somebody might look stupid with these, but it's much better than having the cops thinking you're using a real 9mm.
[edit on 16/1/06 by Echtelion]

They tried that once and no one would buy them. They make them with the red paint on the ends of them now but I know kids have just spray painted them to mach the color of the gun like my Son did. He says they just look Sissy!
It just starts with teaching kids at home. We play with his air soft guns that some do look real but he know never to point them at someone that does not know what they are.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 03:16 PM
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I think that if anyone is ready to wave a gun in the direction of an innocent person and threaten them, they better be ready to take a bullet too. What annoys me is the large and growing number of people that blame these incidents on videogames/Television. I really just dont think that happens, T.V and games dont tell people to shoot at each other. I think If parents inforced more safety and morals in thier household alot of these cases could be avoided. Of course alot of parents are too busy balancing jobs and cooking ect. But if you don't have the time to talk with you're kids like civilized people then having a kid in the first place is a very very irresponsible thing to do.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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I have to disagree about holding companies accountable and changing the design of the guns. Just because someone is suicidal and wants to use a product for something it’s not intended for is no ones fault but that persons. The choices you make are yours and you have to deal with the consequences, not someone else.



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