It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Sharing a Bunk in the Joint - The Robert Geddes Way

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 13 2006 @ 05:20 AM
link   
And you thought prison was fun before! If this public servant gets his way, it will be legal to house twice as many inmates with the same amount of beds, provided the inmates are forced to sleep in shifts.

news.yahoo.com...

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of corrections should realize this is a bad idea right from the start. What the Hell do you do with all those prisoners during a lockdown? Let 'em wander the halls? Maybe try to distract them with a food fight in the cafe?

The prison system in this country is a disgrace. It's fat, and unwieldy, and dangerous, not only to its wards and employees, but also to the country as a whole. You can't just criminalize 3/4 of your constituency and expect them to support you forever.

Patience among the citizenry is waning; the laws are becoming more of a burden, and the politicians are getting wealthier, along with their buddies. That's a recipe for disaster, IMHO. On top of all this, the fact remains most of the folks doing time are in for non-violent drug offenses. They're doing years for a victimless crime, while rapists and abusers routinely walk after months.

Probably the greatest injustice at work within the justice system is the preferential treatment afforded to the wealthy in this country. If you're rich and/or famous, you can steal millions from investors and banks, drive around drunk all day running over people, get caught with drugs and prostitutes, and expect to get off light in the final reckoning (with some free publicity to boot). If you're poor, don't even think of stealing a candy bar. If it's your unlucky third strike, you're lookin' at life!

There's a bunch more going on, besides this one story. The whole trend is towards privatization, to afford decreased accountability, while providing a wide funnel for tax dollars to flow into private coffers, in a nutshell. The more criminals the better, and spending as little as possible on them is the name of the game. If they're dead, but still on the books, so much the better.


This is some of the most fertile conspiracy ground surrounding US affairs, and yet little discussion ever seems to take place regarding the subject. Strange, no?




posted on Jan, 13 2006 @ 08:54 AM
link   
That does indeed sound like a recipe for disaster. What if someone wanted to get something from their cell? And then they wake up their bunky for the fourth time, who's trying to sleep while the general poulation is moving around him? The bunky wouldn't mind, would he?

And what do you do with twice the population in the same physical space? Keep them lashed to a telemarketing job? Pain Sticks? Road gangs?

I don't understand the three strikes rule. You have to do something pretty bad three times to wind up inside for life, right?



WyrdeOne
This is some of the most fertile conspiracy ground surrounding US affairs, and yet little discussion ever seems to take place regarding the subject. Strange, no?


Not strange, predictable. It seems people find it very hard to summon much more than "they get what they deserve" in regards to the issues of prison inmates. Like I said, you have to do something pretty bad, right?. . .right???



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 06:40 PM
link   
Definately not a good idea.

I spent a short stint in jail last year. It was one of the smaller prisons, with only 3 blocks.

Each block had 12 cells to it. These cells were 5 ft wide by 10 ft long.

On one side was a desk. On the other side was 2 bunks, a toilet, and a sink.

In the block I was in, each cell had 2 people to it, with 3 cells having 3 people to it. The 3rd person to a cell had to sleep on a thin mattress on the floor.

It was beyond crowded and noisy. Adding more people to that would have just ended with fights.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 07:51 PM
link   
Thanks for your replies guys.


fingapointa


I don't understand the three strikes rule. You have to do something pretty bad three times to wind up inside for life, right?


Unfortunately, no. Three strikes is just what it sounds like, three strikes and you're OUT. It's an insane law, but people love it. I guess it's fine if you don't break any laws, but there's a problem. The laws are becoming more and more draconian, more people are criminalized every day. Just because you weren't a criminal last week doesn't mean you are in the clear now.

The real criminals are the ones MAKING the laws, and they are in a position to profit from the suffering of innocent Americans. This is literally becoming a prison nation, it's the only growth sector left. Sad days are upon us (have been for some time).

tebyen
Overcrowding is a huge problem already, as you pointed out in your post. It's to the point where states are building DOZENS of prisons at a time to keep up with the intake. This stupid idea proposed by Bob "The Man-Child" Geddes would make the problem worse by orders of magnitude.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 08:57 PM
link   
I appologize ahead of time for the length and uglyness of this post, I'm not a writer or journalist

I just got out of San Diego Central Jail. I had to do 96 hours split into two weekends for the court. I got my second DUI within six years in October. It was irresponsible on my part and I feel like I deserve some form of punishment.

-So anyway, while in jail I sent a medical request to see a nurse as soon as I got into the main module. I never got to talk to one. I asked a floor deputy and all they say to every question is, "It's not my problem."
-The food was absolutely horrible, of almost no nutritional value whatsoever.(Imagine a $1.00 Banquet TV dinner cooked four times and it was still even worse than that.) Included was a little box of flavored sugar water and some sort of dry bread.
-This guy came in, after going through the LONG booking process and had been beaten badly by cops and their patons. He didn't get to see a nurse for a day and a half! He had huge welts on his arms, legs and back- All because he told the police officers that they weren't comming in his friend's house(which he was house sitting for) without a warrant.
Time and time again everyone would talk about how jacked up the system was. I realize that not everybody is innocent and I'm not blamming my crime on the system, but some of these guys made me think. (Btw, just about everyone I talked to was there for drugs or alcohol.)
One guy told me that since the 1980's the jails and pens in California have more than tripled and they're building more. All day long guys would say it's all about the money, and I think that that's definitely part of it.
I worked for an electrical contractor on the military bases and I learned that if the military didn't use up their budget, that they would get less funds next year. Well, I think that it only makes sense that if they make more arrests for petty crimes that the Dept of Corrections will get more money.
One guy told me that California Dept of Corrections is the second or third? biggest business in California. He also said the rookie deputies start at $1200/week for the easiest job I have ever frekin' seen.

What get's me is that alot of these people who are in there are citizens who pay taxes, and yet they get no respect no matter how polite they are. And it seems that half of the arrests were bs.
-One last thing: My boss was talking to me about my DUI and he told me that he "had" lots of cop friends and they would joke about setting people up when they would hang out at the bars and then drive home drunk. I said he "had" because he has very little respect left for the police force, which is sad because I have relatives in the force and I hear the same crap and have seen them driving with the steering wheel in one hand and a beer in the other. It's that brotherhood thing that sets them apart from anyone else.
So I think that instead of incarceration, which doesn't really help a drug user or alcoholic, we should have more recovery-education programs. That way they hopefully can get on thier feet and give back to society.-Just my 2 cents.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by Prodicaliforniason]



posted on Jan, 17 2006 @ 04:45 PM
link   


(Btw, just about everyone I talked to was there for drugs or alcohol.)


Yeah, to me that's the worst part of the whole prison scene, the fact that the majority of people doing time are there for crimes that aren't really crimes. Of course drunk driving is against the law and definitely should be, because of the dangers posed by tanked up motorists. No complaint from me on that one, but the drug laws in this country are disgustingly hypocritical.



One guy told me that since the 1980's the jails and pens in California have more than tripled and they're building more. All day long guys would say it's all about the money, and I think that that's definitely part of it.


I think the prison population doubles every decade, or at least it has for the last couple of decades. America also incarcerates more citizens than any other country, and that's pretty telling. The problem is not that people in this country are naturally bad, it's that the laws are not in line with the commonplace behaviors. The laws set an unrealistic standard.

Of course, if you're rich you can ignore the laws safely. If you're poor, you just have to accept the injustice. That's really the part that pisses me off.



I worked for an electrical contractor on the military bases and I learned that if the military didn't use up their budget, that they would get less funds next year. Well, I think that it only makes sense that if they make more arrests for petty crimes that the Dept of Corrections will get more money.


That's a big part of it. Also, with the advent of private, for-profit prisons, the skys the limit when it comes to abuses and cut corners. If the company in charge of Prison X can save 35 cents per prisoner per day by doing away with milk or whatever, they will do so. Humanitarian concerns, health concerns, these are secondary to the profit motive.



One guy told me that California Dept of Corrections is the second or third? biggest business in California. He also said the rookie deputies start at $1200/week for the easiest job I have ever frekin' seen.


Yeah, and the job attracts the WRONG kind of people.



What get's me is that alot of these people who are in there are citizens who pay taxes, and yet they get no respect no matter how polite they are.


No kidding...

We're paying a premium to get brutalized, marginalized, ignored, and abused. It's so messed up...



posted on Jan, 17 2006 @ 09:34 PM
link   

One guy told me that California Dept of Corrections is the second or third? biggest business in California. He also said the rookie deputies start at $1200/week for the easiest job I have ever frekin' seen.


That's pretty amazing, especially considering corrections officers in the Federal Bureau of Prisons starts out at around $25,000... And to get that you are required to have at least one of the following:
-A bachelor's degree in any field of study
-At least three years of qualifying work experience such as being a supervisor, teacher, counselor, or probation/parole officer.
-A combination of undergraduate education and qualifying work experience that equals at least three years.

Layoffs are rare, as the corrections system has no shortage of clients! However, job turnover is high because, well, why would anyone with a college degree put up with all that crap for $25k?!

The above facts were taken from "American Corrections" 7ed. by Todd Clear, et al, Wadsworth.

Just thought I'd dig up an old textbook (Criminology was one of my majors) because I thought that 1.2k/week sounded off... I dunno how the California State system could pay so much higher... but it is definately NOT easy work!



posted on Jan, 17 2006 @ 09:37 PM
link   
Clearly, the US needs to build more prisons. Apparently, up to twice as many as there are now.



posted on Jan, 17 2006 @ 09:46 PM
link   
I have a better idea Nygdan. How about we stop prosecuting victimless crimes and let all those poor people out of jail. I'd wager we could demolish half of the prisons we have currently, if we would just stop criminalizing so many harmless people.




posted on Jan, 17 2006 @ 09:58 PM
link   
As much as I'd like to say it, I don't think building more prisons is the answer. Prison capacity remained pretty constant until the 70's when correctional clients began to SKYROCKET... Studies have shown that no matter how many more prisons or jails (but jail overcrowding is mainly do to prison overcrowding - people that should be in prison instead of jail aren't accept into jail because no room) we build, we'll still fill them up.

There was proposed legislation awhile back about streamlining the appeals process for death penalty cases at the federal level (it now takes an average of around 15 years to get around to executing someone) to cut it down to 2 years or less, which seems reasonable because less than 2% of appeals ever work... then again, you have that 2% that have a possibility of getting their sentences reduced to life... That's one way to cut prison overcrowding.

I'm more in favor of intermediate punishments (harsher than probation, but less harsh than prison or jail) such as bootcamps, monitoring, etc, I'm sure you've heard of some of the latest sentencing some creative judges have handed down!
Some have also suggested have some offenders serve out their punishments during the weekends and others during weekdays (or some combination thereof... This seems like a really good idea for certain nonviolent offenders.

Being a conservative makes me feel we should be tough on crime, but I also feel I shouldn't have to pay for other peoples' poor judgment (their incarceration.)



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 04:15 AM
link   
WyrdeOne, I must agree with your statment that the real crimes are being commited by those whom we elect to office. Those making the laws WE must abide by, are the very ones to watch. Corruption is such way of life for these well connected people they probaly would not know how to get along without it.
I also feel that the corruption is on every level of our justice system. From the county Sheriff to the Congressman and on up the foodchain. It is also another funnel that the local, state, and Federal corrections adminsrations to pour our tax dollars into. Like a black hole. It sucks everything around it in to be lost forever.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 04:35 PM
link   


Being a conservative makes me feel we should be tough on crime, but I also feel I shouldn't have to pay for other peoples' poor judgment (their incarceration.)


Unfortunately you can't have it both ways without slave labor. That is, of course, the current situation.

Crime needs to be redefined IMO. Victimless crimes are NOT crimes, period. That's a serious issue that needs to be adressed, because it's costing the taxpayers a lot of money to persecute themselves for absolutely no discernible reason, and that's unacceptable.



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 04:21 PM
link   
Well, defining crime is difficult, as well is defining what is a "victimless crime." If somebody decides they don't have to wear their seatbelt - a violation of "law" in many jurisdictions - is that the same as prostitution or drug use?

No seatbelt = more traffic deaths (I don't think many will argue with that), alcoholism or drunk driving = more deaths, drug abuse = more deaths, prostitution = more stds. Substitute deaths for injuries or potential injuries and you get a higher cost for insurance and medical treatment for everybody else.

I think one could make a perfectly reasonable argument that criminal sanctions are more cost effective than allowing such activities to injury all of us in the above ways. Perhaps somebody could make a reasonable argument in rebuttal as well. I recall a study done somewhere in Wisconsin that it was, in a dollars and cents way, cheaper for the community to incarcerate their "minor criminals" (bicycle thieves, shop-lifters) per year than it was the sustain losses the community suffered in a dollar for dollar comparison.

But yes, it's a systemic problem... Let's adopt the program used in the movie, No Escape... who's with me?



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 04:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by Nygdan
Clearly, the US needs to build more prisons. Apparently, up to twice as many as there are now.




usgovinfo.about.com...

1 in 142 US residents now in prison
America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).


That was almost 4 years ago...but I couldn't find a more up to date accounting. How much has it grown since June 2002?

Is it the unpaid workforce which makes incarceration such a profitable idea?



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 04:55 PM
link   
I don't believe "unpaid" workforce has something to do with the incarcerated people in the US (few numbers are released as to how many are actually Americans!!) the US certainly has one of the lowest, if the the lowest, unemployment rates in the "west." (We're 4.something, 4 being, as a macro-economist would say, "perfect employment")

In fact, let's face it... people in the prison system generally aren't exactly on their way to law or medical school. We need low wage workers like the ones that are in prison, examine the current events to see why a great many farmers are in favor of allowing more people into the country because they can't find enough low wage people to work their fields. And though it may venture off-topic, that would be good for all of us, because nobody wants to pay $5 for a head of lettuce.

ed. - the people that work in prison are paid, albeit not a lot, but their wares are only used in government facilities (e.g. parole officers' desks are often made by prison inmates.)

[edit on 29-1-2006 by AlphaHumana]



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 05:34 PM
link   


Well, defining crime is difficult, as well is defining what is a "victimless crime." If somebody decides they don't have to wear their seatbelt - a violation of "law" in many jurisdictions - is that the same as prostitution or drug use?


Yes, all three crimes just mentioned are victimless.



No seatbelt = more traffic deaths (I don't think many will argue with that), alcoholism or drunk driving = more deaths, drug abuse = more deaths, prostitution = more stds. Substitute deaths for injuries or potential injuries and you get a higher cost for insurance and medical treatment for everybody else.


Drunk driving is not a victimless crime, it's a serious offense in my mind because it directly threatens the safety of other motorists. It's reckless endangerment, and willfull disregard for public safety.

Drug abuse kills drug abusers (and occasionally their innocent offspring), whereas the criminality surrounding drug users kills innocent bystanders. Making drug use legal would drastically reduce drug violence, that's for sure.



I recall a study done somewhere in Wisconsin that it was, in a dollars and cents way, cheaper for the community to incarcerate their "minor criminals" (bicycle thieves, shop-lifters) per year than it was the sustain losses the community suffered in a dollar for dollar comparison.


I'd be interested in reading it if you find it.




I don't believe "unpaid" workforce has something to do with the incarcerated people in the US (few numbers are released as to how many are actually Americans!!) the US certainly has one of the lowest, if the the lowest, unemployment rates in the "west." (We're 4.something, 4 being, as a macro-economist would say, "perfect employment")


The US has the lowest published unemployment, but it has an astoundingly high rate of unemployment if you factor in all the considerations the government doesn't. For example, people no longer eligible for benefits, people who don't qualify for benefits because of work duration or self employment, people who never applied, and people who don't live anywhere near an unemployment office.


Factor in long term unemployment (at its highest levels in history) and underemployment (many educated citizens of this country work 2 jobs outside their field, and still don't make enough to support a family without government assistance), and we have a REAL problem. Oh, and don't forget the folks who collect SSI or food stamps instead of unemployment, they're just as unemployed but they're not on the list. That's without even considering the millions of illegal immigrants who slip beneath the cracks.

Pretending unemployment is not a problem is, as far as I'm concerned, not an option. I'm one of those educated, skilled, long-term unemployed folks, BTW.



In fact, let's face it... people in the prison system generally aren't exactly on their way to law or medical school.


That's an incorrect perception, I think. A large percentage of them are in on drug offenses, which is no indicator of intelligence, since drug use cuts across ALL social spectrums. If anything, the fact that there are fewer rich, educated folks in jail for drug crimes is an indication of the lopsided nature of the justice system.



We need low wage workers like the ones that are in prison,


So does China, but we still condemn them for it because it's wrong. It's no less wrong when we do it.



ed. - the people that work in prison are paid, albeit not a lot, but their wares are only used in government facilities (e.g. parole officers' desks are often made by prison inmates.)


They're not paid, for all intents and purposes (pennies per hour net is not payment by any stretch of the imagination, it's a pittance). Their productivity is used to offset costs associated with the prison, and in cases where prisons are privately owned, they're used to turn a profit.



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 06:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by AlphaHumana
ed. - the people that work in prison are paid, albeit not a lot, but their wares are only used in government facilities (e.g. parole officers' desks are often made by prison inmates.)

[edit on 29-1-2006 by AlphaHumana]


I meant only the work done by the prison population. I know that here in Canada, licence plates are made by convicts and you have mentioned parole officers desks. Those plates aren't just used in prison facilities. Nor is the work done on road gangs, etc.
.

I wonder just exactly how large the profits from prison labour is worth when you're talking about more than 2 million workers. I believe you're right that they are not paid a lot and I'm not quibbling over that...but, at what point does a penal system become a labour force which must be maintained by increasing numbers of incarcerations? Is that why some do life for stealing candy bars on 3 different occasions? Does it make economic sense to keep 1 or 2% of the population in prison to cover the costs of the system?



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 08:49 PM
link   
Well, Masqua, I was just stating that the people in prison really have nothing to do with the US's current labor requirement (I see you're in Canada, and I really have no experience with your penal system, so i'd be inappropriate for me to comment on it) But we actually NEED labor here (US).

Many people will complain of the unemployment rates, but that is just verifying Bush's call that there are many jobs around and availible that Americans are unwilling to do. Somebody in the above claimed that they are unemployed but are still educated... well, he must be wealthy enough not to pick fruits for a living, right?

Maybe somebody is too arrogant to pick fruit (etc), so he claims he is unemployed? Hey, I don't complain, but I also do not want to pay $5 (USD) for a head of lettuce.

I can think of a number of countries that will happily embrace those without the will to work, claiming the US has a 14% unemployment rate is simply lazy.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 09:39 PM
link   
WyrdeOne, you get a WATS


The prison situation is getting out of control. We don't need more prisons....we need better punishments that actually work for the lesser crimes like drug possession, petty theft and stuff like that.

Save the prison beds for the rapist, murderers, molesters, drunk drivers, drug dealers, illegal gun salesmen, and the rest of the low lifes that walk the streets.


Treatment vs Incarceration
Recent developments in criminal justice indicate the emergence of a national movement in favor of treating, rather than incarcerating, non-violent drug possession offenders.


Drug treatment

Facts

MD state findings

Im not saying that we should send them to rehab and POOF! they're healed. Violaters of petty crimes and drug possession should still be punished to some degree that they will think twice about being stupid again, but sending them to jail for years is not the punishment that will help. In the long run treatment is the way to go. In only a few years there will be a huge turn around in the US, safer streets, fewer dead beats and better local economies.




I had to do 96 hours split into two weekends for the court. I got my second DUI within six years in October. It was irresponsible on my part and I feel like I deserve some form of punishment.

Prodicaliforniason, is that it? Just 96 hours split into two weekends for your second DUI? Got off pretty light, IMO


[edit on 23/2/2006 by SportyMB]




top topics



 
0

log in

join