The "evil" oaths of the 33rd degree

Should we try to communicate that "Freemasonry isn't a religion" one last time, or is that dead horse sufficiently flogged beyond any hope of recognition or understanding?

No, Freemasonry is not a religion, it's much better than that.
Freemasonry deliberately erodes at organised religion so as to reduce it's importance and influence on an individual where it becomes a mere "badge" to wear in public while they develop their own personal relationship with their own personal god.
This is the very definition of LeVay Satanism - creating your own god in your own image.

If you listen to Freemasons, then Freemasonry isn't anything at all.
You will never get a straight answer out of them, that's to be expected really because in their "Walter Mitty" existence there are no finites, everything and anything *could* be possible depending on how you wish to look at it.
Reality means nothing to them and they are so convinced that they are operating on "a higher level" than the "profanes" that it makes it almost impossible to speak reason with them.

Also as a side note - please leave the Buddha out of this God nonsense.
He is not and never claimed to be a God.

[edit on 20-1-2006 by MrNECROS]

Ah - no-one does misinformation quite like NECROS

Originally posted by MrNECROS
No, Freemasonry is not a religion, it's much better than that.
Freemasonry deliberately erodes at organised religion so as to reduce it's importance and influence on an individual...

Tosh and nonsense. Twaddle. Lets go back to basics shall we?

External Source - United Grand Lodge of England

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions. Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.

You can read the full statement here.

If you listen to Freemasons, then Freemasonry isn't anything at all.
You will never get a straight answer out of them...

Actually, you get straight answers all the time. You just don't recognize them as such as you live in a twisty-turny fantasy world full of evil masons and exploding toilets.

Originally posted by Nakash

I didn't reduce Christ to an angel (heresy), but if Christ is indeed the Messiah he must be YHWH in his transcendental form (Metatron). He is also Lord and leader of the Hosts, though not a host himself.

Metatron is a figure from Kabalistic and Talmudic lore. I'm actually sort of surprised you've identified him with Christ.

My apology. You are in fact correct on this. The date given however was stipulated by St. Eusebius and irenaeus of Lyons as possible dates for the schism. I wrongly confused the Masonic Calendar with a Gnostic schedule I saw somewhere (post the link when I find it).

Ok, fair enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and that definitely includes me.

Me: "Aleister Crowley was never a regular Mason, nor was he ever a satanist."


You: "Not a Satanist? Your joking right? He was a member of the Golden Dawn and O.T.O.- both affiliated with Masonry."

To begin with, no, I'm not joking. Crowley's religion was Thelema. He did not believe in the Christian version of God or the devil. Thelema is a pantheistic religion which celebrates the ancient Egyptian god Ra-Hoor-Khuit, as a symbol of the sun, as its chief deity. This is paganism, not satanism.

Secondly, you are correct that Crowley had been a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and O.T.O. For many years I too have been a member of Builders of the Adytum, an order which stemmed out from the Alpha et Omega Temple of the Golden Dawn. I'm also a former associate member of Ordo Templi Orientis.

Me: "Reuss was briefly a regular Mason, but only held membership for about a year. He was never a satanist; instead, he was a Gnostic. "


You: "And what my friend is the conception of Satan gnostics are most fond of? Be honest."

Satan is generally not an important character in Gnosticism. Most modern Gnostics do not believe in Satan as a literal being, as Science has become more important than Religion for those on the Path. Satan is generally considered a medieval superstition, invented by churchmen to keep the populace under their control through fear.

Me: "However, since Wicca was not even founded until the 1920's, I'd wager your information is not true."

You: "If by Wicca you mean the Gardner hoax I agree. Fertility and Mother Goddess/Magna Mater cults are far older though."

That's true, but goddess worship on the British Isles was practically non-existent until Gardner. However, I don't much about it, and will concede that your previous statement is possible.

Me: "No, there aren't. Besant, of course, was never a Mason."

You: "Yet her husband was. Her beliefs can perfectly well be picked apart in orthodox Masonry. Let's be honest."

There's a lot of people whose personal beliefs are shared by Freemasons, but that does not mean that they are members of our fraternity. Thomas Jefferson is a good example. He embodied the Masonic ideal in his thinking, but never became a Mason, as so many of his comrades did.

My friend, I never said Pike was a Zoroastrian, but can you deny that his writings contain the same peculiar gnostic manichaen duality of Zoroastrianism? Of course not!

You yourself just quoted a passage from "Morals and Dogma", chapter 32, which says, in essence, that dualism is completely false, yet you consider Pike a dualist. I find this puzzling. Pike was interested in Zoroastrianism, but he also believed that it contained corrupted doctrines. He believed the Vedas to be more primitive in purity, and the Vedic faith of the ancients was not a dualistic one.

Your mad that I simply collected quotes from well known Masonic sources. If Masonry has nothing to hide WHY are you angry?

I'm not angry, I'm just curious if you actually know what your talking about. In other words, have you actually read the books you're quoting?

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Will some you masons please tell me why FDR 33rd drgree mason changed U.S. currency back in the 30's to include masonic symbols along with New World Order inscpripted as well ?

Your entitled to worship a flea on a Yaks ass for all I care. Why does our money need your logo ?

To begin with, FDR was 32°, not 33°. He was elected to receive the 33°, but died before the degree was conferred. This is probably irrelevant, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.

Secondly, the symbols on the back of our currency are not Masonic. It is the great Seal of the United States, and of the Congressional Committee who designed it, only one (Benjamin Franklin) was a Mason. Franklin's idea for the design was completely different, and the current Seal was composed by non-Masons.

Congress voted to include the Seal on currency way back in the 1780's. Franklin simply ordered that the law be followed.

Originally posted by Nakash
I still cannot pin down this generic God of Masonry.Since I don't wish to underestimate the intelligence of most Masons, I have to conclude that Masonry does not wish to reveal it's true God.

Is it not possible that there is no god advocated by the fraternity? That its rites and explanations of those rites are 'vague' when they are tried to be taken as a whole because they are not a whole, and they include so many elements because they were intended to be commentaries on man's understanding of religion through the ages?

Just look at Pike's handling of all the different religions he talks about in Morals and Dogma. He's an antiquarian. So was Ashmole, a man who joined masonry so early in its speculative phase that he's practically thought to have been there at the invention of it, and he too was an antiquarian. Look at Chevalier Ramsay, an educated member of the british elite, tutor to the Sovereigns, these are people who are classically trained, have a good handle on comparative mythology and religion, and who are quasi-philosophical. Thats why masonry has so many disparate elements and thats why its so vague. Not because all these men are part of an underground devil cult, talking about liberty and equality out of one side of their mouth and devouring babies with the other side.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Is it not possible that there is no god advocated by the fraternity? That its rites and explanations of those rites are 'vague' when they are tried to be taken as a whole because they are not a whole, and they include so many elements because they were intended to be commentaries on man's understanding of religion through the ages?

Absolutely. The universality of Masonry is its core and base. The purpose here is to unite men in a fraternity with whose principles all can agree with, regardless of personal religious belief. As has been previously mentioned, this was a standard idea during the Enlightenment.

Mahabone Bro's, would any of you care to address the following !


Freemasons/The Illuminati & Satanic Connection to US Currency

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Freemasons/The Illuminati & Satanic Connection to US Currency

Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. wrote in his book The Coming of the New Deal, that Vice President Henry A. Wallace (a Mason) was “fascinated” by the occult, and was impressed enough with the significance of the reverse side of the Great Seal to lobby Treasury Secretary Morganthau to have it put on the back of the one dollar bill in 1935. Wallace later ran for President as a Socialist. What this gesture meant, was that the Illuminati had finally reached the point where they could set into motion their plans for the New World Order by initiating the destruction of our Constitution.

The front side of the Great Seal, or the Eagle, is well known. It is used to seal all governmental documents. The reverse side displays a pyramid, with an eye in the capstone and a Latin inscription around it. This seems to be a continuation of the Masonic symbolism found on the front. The number thirteen is displayed prominently, and was thought to have referred to the thirteen colonies. However, the number thirteen was a mystical number to the Egyptians and Babylonians, and also the Masons.

There are:

13 stars in the crest

13 stripes and bars in the shield

13 olive leaves

13 olives

13 arrows in the right claw

13 feathers in the arrows

13 letters in “Annuit Coeptis”

13 letters in “E Pluribus Unum”

13 courses of stone in the pyramid

13 X 9 dots in the divisions around the crest

It has been said that the cluster of 13 five-pointed stars above the head of the eagle is actually a representation of a hexagram, which is the most evil of all occult symbols, and is used to invoke Satan.

This is not to be confused with the Star of David, Mogen David, or Seal of Solomon, which consists of two interlaced equilateral triangles, which symbolize the union of God and man.

There are 32 long feathers on the right wing which represent the 32 degrees in Scottish Rite Masonry, and there are 33 feathers on the left, which represent the 33 degrees of York Rite Freemasonry. The pyramid has thirteen levels, said to represent the 13 bloodlines; and within the capstone is an eye. It is not the eye of God, as we have been taught to believe. It stems from Masonic tradition, where it is known as the ‘Eye of Horus’ (the Sun God), or the ‘All-Seeing Eye,’ which refers to the protection of Providence, “whose eye never slumbers nor sleeps,” alluding to the ‘Big Brother’ system of constant surveillance. To the Illuminati, it represents the eye of Satan, who its members worship.

The pyramid represents the organizational structure of the Illuminati, and the capstone containing the eye, represents the House of Rothschild, who control the group, and have perpetuated the goal of one-world government. Some sources claim that on the top level, the 1st block represents the Council of 13 (the 13 most powerful witches), the 2nd block represents the Council of 33 (33 highest ranking Masons in the world), and the 3rd block is the Council of 500 (500 richest people and corporations in the world).

According to the original Treasury Department press release of August 15, 1935, which gave details of the symbol being put on the back of the one dollar bill, said the following: “The eye and triangular glory symbolize an all-seeing Deity. The pyramid is the symbol of strength and its unfinished condition denoted the belief of the designers of the Great Seal that there was still work to be done.” Notice they said “Deity,” and not “God.”

The news release indicated that the Latin phrase “Annuit Coeptis” is translated as “he (God) favored our undertakings,” and comes from Virgil’s ‘audacibus annue coeptis’ or “favor my daring undertaking,” which refers to the ‘golden’ age during which the ‘Saturnian’ (Saturn was the father of Osiris) kingdom shall return. “Novus Ordo Seclorum” is translated as ‘a new order of the ages,’ which is taken from Virgil’s ‘magnus ab integro seclorum nascitur ordo’ or “the great series of ages begins anew.” To the Illuminati, the combination of these two Latin phrases is translated as: “Announcing the Birth of a New Secular Order.”

The date 1776, found at the base of the pyramid in Roman numerals, doesn’t refer to July 4th, the date of the country’s independence; but May 1st, when the Illuminati was founded. May 1st is also an international holiday for all workers, known as May Day, which was established in 1889 at the International Socialist Congress.

Now, take a pen, and on the seal on the left side of the bill, find the word “Annuit” and draw a circle around the first letter ‘A.’ Find the word “Coeptis” and draw a circle around the last letter ‘S.’ Find the word “Novus” and draw a circle around the first letter ‘N.’ Find the word “Ordo” and draw a circle around the last letter ‘O.’ Find the word ‘Seclorum’ and draw a circle around the last letter ‘M.’ Now, take your pen, and starting from ‘N’ to the top of the capstone, back down to ‘M’ and back over to ‘N’ (utilizing the entire pyramid as one triangle). Then draw a line from ‘A’ to ‘S’ then down to ‘O’ and then back up to ‘A’ which is the second triangle. Not only will you will see a representation of the six-pointed star, but you will also an anagram that spells the word M-A-S-O-N.

The reverse side of the Great Seal, which can be found in the Meditation Room of the United Nations, has never been used to seal one document in this country’s history, and it never will, because it is the seal of the Illuminati.

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#0.2 05-02-05, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Mahabone Bro's, would any of you care to address the following !

There are plenty of websites, including that of the US Secretary of State, that give the history of the Great Seal of the United States. Try Google.

At risk of having this thread blow up into something huge and taking away from the original question at hand, why not refer to this dead horse. It was pretty severly beaten, long, long ago. And yet it still lives.

ATS: Symbols on U.S. Currency...more than just coincidence?

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Feel free to add or not pay any attention to the information therin. Currency symbology has nothing to do with the supposed "evil oaths of the 33rd degree" (laughs). I'd really rather discuss the evil oaths of the IRS auditor, or something like that.

Damn Masonic Light,
Ever play dodge ball?...There are about twenty different claims in my post and you refer me to google?

sorry that thread I gave you is filled with garbage, here is something I posted in the past that will be more helpful.

these symbols are left to interpretation by many, so how could there be just one meaning. It may contain multiple meanings. You ask many questions, which is good, but you should also put some of your thoughts into the post, it would be interesting to see how you came to this conclusion. And it would add another viewpoint to the situation. Do not feel afraid to post what you want to say, or the point you want to make.


www.enchantedlearning.com...
www.answers.com...

quote: The eye and the pyramid shown on the reverse side of the one-dollar bill are in the Great Seal of the United States. The Great Seal was first used on the reverse of the one-dollar Federal Reserve note in 1935. The Department of State is the official keeper of the Seal. They believe that the most accurate explanation of a pyramid on the Great Seal is that it symbolizes strength and durability. The unfinished pyramid means that the United States will always grow, improve and build. In addition, the "All-Seeing Eye" located above the pyramid suggests the importance of divine guidance in favor of the American cause.

The inscription ANNUIT COEPTIS translates as "He (God) has favored our undertakings," and refers to the many instances of Divine Providence during our Government's formation. In addition, the inscription NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM translates as "A new order of the ages," and signifies a new American era. If you are interested in a more detailed history of the Great Seal of the United States, you should contact the Department of State directly.

www.centercoin.com...

www.hersheytrust.com/uploaded_files/fepnJan2002.pdf


THE MOST IMPORTANT LINK:
web.mit.edu...

quote: In, at times, a strongly worded article Dr. S. Morris, a member and Past Master of Patmos Lodge #70, Ellicott City, Maryland, has "set the record straight" on the myth that the Great Seal of the United States represents a Masonic symbol. The facts are clearly presented, together with several examples of the use of the "All Seeing Eye" prior to any known Masonic use. This straightforward article is being presented as a STB so that Freemasons may have an answer when the question is asked "Is the Seal of the United States a Masonic symbol?"

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Damn Masonic Light,
Ever play dodge ball?...There are about twenty different claims in my post and you refer me to google?

What do you want me to do, debunk 'em all one by one? I have neither the time nor the interest, as most of the "claims" lack all resemblance to seriousness. If you want answers, as i've mentioned, there are plenty of websites out there that have the factual history of the seal. I see no reason for me to have to spend a half hour spelling it out for you.

The information is on this site masonic light. It took me less than five minutes to give somebody information that they asked for. Heck, it even looked like they put some work into thier post. I thought you would want to help somebody seek the light, if you cannot be patient and help those who might be willing to learn, then why are you here? Just because his ideas might be flawed, and you are tired of the question, doesnt mean you should not put in the effort. What does that person think when he/she sees that the educated masons on this board think that they are too important, or don't have time to answer their silly questions. Arrogance, begat mystery, and mystery begat negativity, which is why you encounter so much heat from the mason bashers.

Lets not stray from the true purpose of this board, or the purpose of YOUR craft, Education is the intended purpose of this forum. Some of us chose to learn, others do not, but give them a chance, and give them your time and effort, or don't post at all. Please.

thank you.

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
The information is on this site masonic light. It took me less than five minutes to give somebody information that they asked for. Heck, it even looked like they put some work into thier post.

I doubt it. It's the tradition of the nay-sayers around here to copy large amounts of gobbledegook from other websites, without reference, and then to ask for a point by point refutation. Then, when we respond, our answers are either dismissed out of hand, or just plain ignored.

I thought you would want to help somebody seek the light, if you cannot be patient and help those who might be willing to learn, then why are you here? Just because his ideas might be flawed, and you are tired of the question, doesnt mean you should not put in the effort.

Let's be serious here. If I copied some nonsense from some fringe website, that said your ancestors were pig people from the planet Morarlakhy, have evolved into humanoids, and are now trying to take over the world, would you give it a point by point refutation? I doubt you'd even give me the time of day, and i couldn't fault you for not doing so.

As far as "effort" goes, I've been posting here for a long time, and have had to repeat myself more than once. As you yourself mentioned, it only took you a few seconds to find what you were looking for through a search, which is exactly what I recommended to him.

What does that person think when he/she sees that the educated masons on this board think that they are too important, or don't have time to answer their silly questions.

Am I too educated? No. Am I too busy to answer silly questions? Yes.

Arrogance, begat mystery, and mystery begat negativity, which is why you encounter so much heat from the mason bashers.

To be honest, I really couldn't care less what the Mason bashers think. My primary purpose in responding to them here is not to change their minds, but to display to the neutral and unbiased who may be reading that my fraternity is actually something worth having around. If in the meantime, it is also shown that the majority of the anti-Masons are quacks and scam artists, so be it.





[edit on 20-1-2006 by Masonic Light]

Thirteen.

Everytime I see a question about numbers, I turn to my "masonic manual" (Pike's morals and dogma) In the second chapter at the very end he discusses the significance of numbers one through twelve. I referenced the index to see what thirteen means in masonic symbology, and here it is.

Page 209, "royal arch of solomon"

To communicate true and correct ideas in respect of the Diety was one chief object of the mysteries. In them, Khurum the King, and Khurum the Master, obtained thier knowledge of him and his attributes; and in them that knowledge was taught to Moses and Pythagoras.
Wherefore nothing forbids you to consider the whole legend of this Degree (13), like that of the Msater's, and allegory, representing the perpetuation of the knowledge of the True God in the sanctuaries of initiation. By the subterranean vaults you may understand the places of initiation, in which the ancient ceremonies were generally underground. The Temple of Solomon presented a symbolic image of the Unverse; and resembled, in its arrangements and furniture, all the temples of the ancient nations that practiced the mysteries. The system of numbers was intimately connected with their religions and worship, and has come down to us in Masonry; through the esoteric meaning with which the numbers used by us are pregnant is unknown to the vast majority that use them. Those numbers were especially employed that had a reference to the Diety, represented his attributes, or figured in the frame-work of the world, in time and space, and formed more or less the bases of that frame work. These were universally regarded as sacred, being the expression of order and intelligence, the utterances of Divinity Himself

As far as I can tell, if 13 is symbolic of anything on the dollar bill, or its use in our country's history, it is merely symbolic of God, and ther person who created the great seal, created a very educateed throwback to the ancient mysteries, and symbolism of numbers. Rather similar to our monuments duplicating the ancient architecture. A good cultural foundation.

I would reccomend reading the 13th chapter of "morals and dogma, to gain the full understanding of this ancient allegory, the passage above could be grossly misunderstood, by those who haven't read this chapter in its entirety. It has to do with numbers being used, because hebrews woulod not dare utter the ineffable name of thier lord. Instead they used symbols to get thier point across.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

am I too educated? No. Am I too busy to answer silly questions? Yes.

me: Arrogance, begat mystery, and mystery begat negativity, which is why you encounter so much heat from the mason bashers.

To be honest, I really couldn't care less what the Mason bashers think. My primary purpose in responding to them here is not to change their minds, but to display to the neutral and unbiased who may be reading that my fraternity is actually something worth having around. If in the meantime, it is also shown that the majority of the anti-Masons are quacks and scam artists, so be it.

YOUR fraternity. Hardly. Maybe your social club.

I am in a FRATERNAL ORGAIZATION, we teach values of honor, love and truth. We also teach the difference between a socail club, and a fraternity. A fraternity is about upholding values, and creating perfection in your own temple (your mind and body). We also consider that educating the public about our society is shown in our action, and the services we perform. I believe that this board is a community, and right now, I would be offended if I was in your lodge. The best way to win a fight is to not enter the ring at all. I don't fight these people, I use logic and reason, and if they chose to not understand, then I drop it. So just drop it, Pike writes, that people will misunderstand fraternal orgainzations for eternity, and it is no use trying to educate them, because the most ridiculous and radical opinions are always accepted amongst the non-members. You cannot change history, you cannot fight the future. You can only change you.

I have been told, you will know the mason by his true character and his actions. I doubt your commitment more and more.

As far as I'm concerned you have a long way to go spiritually. There are no silly questions here, just silly people.

Hello once more. Nice to see you Masonic light. Now for you former post(s). Well, first of all, Metatron is indeed mentioned extensively in Kabbalistic and Talmudic texts, however he is not the angel of Death (Raziel ?) but the angel of the Lord (YHWH in his glorious form), Most Talmudic scholars agree to that exegesis (not that I really care- the Talmud is a useless piece of Babylonian commentary which can shed light on certain aspects of scripture, but most often just insults the actual Torah with fanciful blasphemies and fairy tales derived from paganism).
I really can't see Crowley as anything less than a Satanist. Sure he claimed to create a new Religion (Thelema) but we both know his history- Demonic contacts/ posession, odd rituals taken from questionable sources, etc. There aren't any people in little black hoods ala' Rosemary's Baby to my knowledge- most Satanists (ie: Lavey, Crowley, Blavatsky, etc.) often claim to create a new religion (usually derived from some obscure unverifiable source), whose only common aspect is usually an intense hatred of Christianity.
Satan in Gnosticism is usually considered a "God" or a heroe of sorts. You weren't honest. I suggest people on this board go read a little the Nag Hammadi library,Cathar writings or other Gnostic fairy tales and their amazing claims on Super agent Jesus who didn't die but had a bunch of chumps believe on him, evil archons out to get us, Serpent God demiurges given birth by Mother godesses, how Satan "saved" mankind from God in Eden by giving Eve the fruit, How evil Adonai had a stooge named Noah build an ark while his evil archons raped some "Noreah" character that had secret teachings intended to save humanity etc. - would make David Icke DAMN PROUD . Anyway, I know that you don't take this stuff in a literal sense, but you get the idea right? You also know that the same thought pattern is present in the Zoroastrian theology Pike loved. I'm not asking you to be a fundamentalist, but to claim that this isn't dark stuff (and of a blatantly blasphemous nature for those who follow orthodox biblical theology) is to kid yourself. I'm not into it but I guess you find it of use in your life.

Absolutely. The universality of Masonry is its core and base. The purpose here is to unite men in a fraternity with whose principles all can agree with, regardless of personal religious belief. As has been previously mentioned, this was a standard idea during the Enlightenment.

OK, fair enough, a noble goal (though I'm not ecumenical in my theology, I find this attempt to unite men into a fraternity of brotherhood worthy), however do you understand why some people find this suspicious? Many people within masonry have had a questionable record (ie: our Good Satanist friend Manly P. Hall or others) and since secrecy is quite high within lodges and Masons claim to have NO God (yet use extensive symbolism linked to Satanism- as in Islam, pagan theologies of yore, Judaism, Christianity, etc.), some might deduce that they don't wish to reveal their actual God.

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama
What I am trying to say is that a site stole the 33rd degree ritual in an attempt to use it in an anti-masonic nature, but it seems to have backfired - the ritual shines a good light on masonry.

There is no 33rd degree according to the masons.. perhaps this is because it is said that the intiation to 33rd degree is an induction into the Illuminati which would make it technically not a masonic degree but a new level unto itself.

Either way I seriously doubt the site you saw was truly anti-masonic.

More than likely it was just the opposite. Fighting back by making their own faux anti masonic sight that paints it in a good light.

who knows.

IN my opinion regardless of who made it.. its not really true to the actual rite if such exists.

Originally posted by Nakash

Satan in Gnosticism is usually considered a "God" or a heroe of sorts. You weren't honest. I suggest people on this board go read a little the Nag Hammadi library,Cathar writings or other Gnostic fairy tales and their amazing claims on Super agent Jesus who didn't die but had a bunch of chumps believe on him, evil archons out to get us, Serpent God demiurges given birth by Mother godesses, how Satan "saved" mankind from God in Eden by giving Eve the fruit, How evil Adonai had a stooge named Noah build an ark while his evil archons raped some "Noreah" character that had secret teachings intended to save humanity etc. - would make David Icke DAMN PROUD

. Anyway, I know that you don't take this stuff in a literal sense, but you get the idea right? You also know that the same thought pattern is present in the Zoroastrian theology Pike loved. I'm not asking you to be a fundamentalist, but to claim that this isn't dark stuff (and of a blatantly blasphemous nature for those who follow orthodox biblical theology) is to kid yourself. I'm not into it but I guess you find it of use in your life.


OK, fair enough, a noble goal (though I'm not ecumenical in my theology, I find this attempt to unite men into a fraternity of brotherhood worthy), however do you understand why some people find this suspicious? Many people within masonry have had a questionable record (ie: our Good Satanist friend Manly P. Hall or others) and since secrecy is quite high within lodges and Masons claim to have NO God (yet use extensive symbolism linked to Satanism- as in Islam, pagan theologies of yore, Judaism, Christianity, etc.), some might deduce that they don't wish to reveal their actual God.

Lets get one thing straight.

Lucifer does not mean satan.

It is a reference to the symbolism of venus. Pike was not a satanist. You do not understnd his religious view. You have not read morals and dogma.

Knoiwing that you cannot argue with any validity of your theory (or somebody's poor, ripped-off theory) you misintereperit, and make a grave oversight; you form a conclusion that is a logical fallacy. try again.

Lucifer is the "light bringer," Venus, which represents balance. His religion is based on Balance. Venus is The morning star and the evening star. It is the number one symbol for balance in his religion. Since his religion has a pagan background, this is not surprising. The fact that nobody can see past the word lucifer, is not surprising either.

"the master" p. 102 Albert Pike

The true name of Satan, the kabalists say, is that of Yaveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of god. The devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.
for the initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this force, which presides over physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-Bearer or Phosphor, of which poets have made the false Lucifer of legend.

You cannot accept the current defintion of Lucifer or satan. Pike writes in arcane and archaic language, nobody who hasn't researched the history of these words or ancient language can argue this point. You are misunderstanding pikes message, and the teachings of this great philosopher.

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Eyeofhorus]