Americans divided on the issue of security and privacy.

So I can spy on the police? I get my *bum* kicked when I ask too many questions after speeding. They can toss my car and leave books and cds and personal property on the ground while I stand, spread eagle, against my hood while traffic watches. I can do this?
I wonder how the cops would react to me tapping their phones or peeking in their windows.
If I never post here again, you all know what happened.

An effective government can keep the nation secured from foreign invasion without compromising the security of citizens, and that is the ideal. However, governments by their very nature become corrupt over time, which leads to benevolent security becoming malevolent oppression.

So, my realistic ideal - even though it will likely never happen either - is one that I think has more chance of keeping security and freedom by putting the national defense in the hands of every citizen with regulated milita groups and having those milita groups interface with regulated militia intelligence groups in times of war. By regulated I mean a combination of federal, state, peer and self regulation. And while they are regulated by the federal and state governments, that does not mean they are commanded by the federal and state governments.

In lieu of that, I would prefer freedom over security. As quoted as it may be, "Give me liberty or give me death." still stands.

That is the problem the spying on Americans is only allowed one side, Americans can not spy on the government because that is Against the law

So where is the law that protect Americans from being spied on?

Funny is only one losing side here and is obvious who that side may be.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
So I can spy on the police? I get my *bum* kicked when I ask too many questions after speeding.

Is it on public property? If so why not?

They can toss my car and leave books and cds and personal property on the ground while I stand, spread eagle, against my hood while traffic watches. I can do this?

They cant really do that since its against civil liberties and if you are respectful then you can get the officer dishonourably discharged.

I wonder how the cops would react to me tapping their phones or peeking in their windows.
If I never post here again, you all know what happened.

Well conspricy theorists watch the police and military via long range telescoeps etc.
Why is it not against the civil right to watch the watchers?

Originally posted by devilwasp
I might not mind having the police investigate my phone records because I dont do anything that would really cause them something to be concerned about.

You might not mind? Well, do you mind or not?

And then where do you draw the line? Mind if they search your house? Mind if they reach all the way back in your underwear drawer? Mind if they look under your bed?

Mind if they go to your bank and get your banking records? Mind if they hire the IRS to audit all your past tax records?

** DO YOU THINK you can totally trust the police 100% with all the information they gather on you? Are you willing to trust the police and the government to be staffed only with honorable people who have integrity and would never misuse or otherwise exploit the information they have? **

*GULP*

If you're not doing anything wrong, what have you got to worry about?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You might not mind? Well, do you mind or not?

No i wouldnt.

And then where do you draw the line? Mind if they search your house? Mind if they reach all the way back in your underwear drawer? Mind if they look under your bed?

Hell they can look anywhere they want in the 6 by 12 cell they call my "room" here at the halls of residance.

Mind if they go to your bank and get your banking records? Mind if they hire the IRS to audit all your past tax records?

Do I have anything to hide?

** DO YOU THINK you can totally trust the police 100% with all the information they gather on you?

You'd trust a police officer with your security yet not your information?

Are you willing to trust the police and the government to be staffed only with honorable people who have integrity and would never misuse or otherwise exploit the information they have?

IF they where going to exploit the info, they could do it illegally anyway.
How much does it cost for a decent hacker these days anyway?

**

*GULP*

If you're not doing anything wrong, what have you got to worry about?

Mind if I make a comment?
Americans are paraniod about the government , yet trust several "trustworthy" people to form a local gang to defend the country?

I cant hear W's phone calls with a friggin telescope my friend, and all those situations I listed have happened to me. My point is that we are moving faster and faster towards a police state. The Gov't has abused power for long enough, and as BH put it, when do we draw the line? I have already drawn mine.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I cant hear W's phone calls with a friggin telescope my friend, and all those situations I listed have happened to me.

You've insulted a police officer enough to make him search your car?
Well techinically you can if you watch his lips.

My point is that we are moving faster and faster towards a police state. The Gov't has abused power for long enough, and as BH put it, when do we draw the line? I have already drawn mine.

Yet you will trust a bunch of red necks with shotguns to defend you?

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tags.

[edit on 12/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

I'm sorry man, I just seen you are from Scotland. I didnt realize I was arguing with someone with no frame of reference. You dont have any idea what you are talking about. I am finished...

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I'm sorry man, I just seen you are from Scotland. I didnt realize I was arguing with someone with no frame of reference. You dont have any idea what you are talking about. I am finished...

I dont?
So I dont live in a country with armed police?
I dont know your country?
I have never met a police officer and NEVER have had one question me?

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Can you add to the thread about perhaps why you don't mind giving up your freedoms for security instead of making assumptions?

I, for one, am interested in hearing the other side of this issue, devilwasp. Care to contribute?

Edited to remove member confrontation.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Well IMO, it depends what you mean by freedoms doesnt it?

I might not mind having the police investigate my phone records because [bold]I dont do anything that would really cause them something to be concerned about.[/bold]

If the police or army wanted these powers of survielance frankly whats the problem if the peopel are allowed to watch the watchers to?

Ok and so what happens when what you do becomes against the laws they tell you you must obey?

You ever been in a situation where you have to deal with a prosecutor here in the land of the free? I was speeding on a motorcycle some years back and they wanted to nail me for fleeing and eluding, a felony and a two year prison term.

It didnt matter if I was guilty or innocent, they wanted me as an example for motorcyclists. I was going to be there poster boy.

I will tell you this right now. You put any law on the books and the prosecution will not show any restraint, they will use the tools availible to them to prosecute. Right or wrong, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, they will nail you with the tools at hand.

No way do I want this to get any worst. The government has turned the corner in 2001 and have become a problem.

Thanks.
An AMERICAN with a frame of reference regarding the AMERICAN justice(?) system.
This is what we need on this thread.
Anyone else from the US that has anything to say about privacy issues/abuses?

The scandal surrounding President Bush's decision to ignore the constitution and violate the civil rights of American citizens has absolutely nothing to do with security or terrorism. It's only about the desire for power. His desire to turn the consitution on its head and create a super-Executive Branch that can make its own law is reflected in his selections of Harriet Meiers (who was actually his own attorney!) and Samuel Alito, who is nothing but a lickspittle who craves approval from those in power. These two nominees have expressed the most shocking disregard for our constitution's separation of powers and both believe in an Executive Branch that in not bothered by little things like courts or Congress, but are a law unto themselves.

If there are Americans who have become so frightened by terrorism that they'll gladly give up their rights, then it's a testament to the effectiveness of the Bush Administration's control over the media and the power of fear.

If nothing else, George Bush will be remembered as the President of Fear. Representing the very opposite of FDR's exhortation that we have nothing to fear but fear itself, George Bush has nothing to fear but Americans who are NOT afraid, because it was fear that got him reelected, and fear that makes Americans so willing to let him stay in charge.

I believe in the hearts of Americans, and I believe that eventually they will see through the cynical way the Bush Administration has cultivated fear among our population. 3000 or so people died on 9/11, but in historical terms, that's next to nothing. Was the death of 3000 people a good reason to turn the Constitution inside out? Will the "Forever War" of this phoney "War on Terror" be the thing that finally turns the USA into an ugly Western analog of the Soviet State? Do a little research into the underpinnings of the Neocon movement that Karl Rove and Wolfowitz belong to and you will find a neo-Trotskyite philosophy of an all-encompassing central power controlling the nation. The very opposite of the "Small Government" that Republicans are supposed to believe in. We are now being told that the cost of the War in Iraq will be between 1 and 2 TRILLION dollars. Think about that number. It was only a few decades ago that a trillion dollars reflected the entire economy of the United
States,and now that amount is going towards creating a powerful Islamic state in the Middle East. For what? Really. For what? And all of that money. Every dime of that Trillion Dollars is borrowed money that our children and grandchildren and generations to come will have to pay. Just the payment on the debt - the interest - on the war in Iraq is 300 BILLION dollars. Again... for what? While most Americans are one illness away from complete financial ruin, just the interest on the War in Iraq would completely cover every Man Woman and Child in the United States with Health Insurance. How much of our nation's wealth will we squander this way, how much of our freedom will we throw down Bush's Well of Fear, how many brave young Americans will have to die so that Iraqi's can go to the polls and vote for... A Radical, Fundamentalist Islamic State??? What good is protecting America from this supposed horrible threat of terrorism if we lose our freedoms in the bargain? How do we profit if we gain the world, but lose our national soul?

" Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom or security" - Abe Lincoln

Originally posted by Fuhr86
" Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom or security" - Abe Lincoln

I think that may have been Jefferson, but hey its the quote that counts...

Here is one that is also relevent:

"Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall

If you had a 9/11 once a month, the death toll would not be as high as the anual death toll we have from car accidents. People are willing to give up what makes America the country it is for this? We are more brave than that are we not? We are the nation that went through a horrible depression without hardly any standing military, only to turn it around and create that biggest, baddest, best war machine that world had ever witnessed, are we not?

We cannot give up any portion of that freedom our forefathers faught for! We hold the flame to the feet of the government, not the other way around. That is why we are unique. Not because we have more convenience than other nations, not becaue we feed the world Mc Donalds, we are unique because we were truely a Republic!

We are the free and the brave!

Not the imprisoned and the cowardly.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Why do certain people complain about this now, what's the difference now? The media and other people can choose to play politics for all I care, because that's what it is, it's politics. where was Ted Kenny and the uproar on this matter during the Clinton years?
One a side note, I live in Philadelphia and in my city the homicide rate has skyrocketed, I wish the police would get much tougher and implement new laws to offer me more security. Like my avatar says, Law and Order.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Why do certain people complain about this now, what's the difference now? The media and other people can choose to play politics for all I care, because that's what it is, it's politics. where was Ted Kenny and the uproar on this matter during the Clinton years?
One a side note, I live in Philadelphia and in my city the homicide rate has skyrocketed, I wish the police would get much tougher and implement new laws to offer me more security. Like my avatar says, Law and Order.

Well Mr. Law and Order, people were saying this during the Clinton years, just not nearly as many had awoke. The reason why homicide has gone way up in Philly, is because of the drug war. The high price of drugs has caused such a large black market, that you now have all of these gangs holding and fighting for territory to sell drugs.

Problem Reaction Solution.

Your city is the perfect example, but too many people dont dig deep enough to know whats going on. The government created the war on drugs and that war keeps escalating, and now you think we need more security to get it all under control.

Dont you people ruin my nation because you dont understand how things work!

Well Mr. Law and Order, people were saying this during the Clinton years, just not nearly as many had awoke.

Sure they were, like I said, politics, what else is there to do in Washington?

Also, the “Drug War” is not the only reason homicide deaths have risen in Philly, armed robbery, along with kidnappings have also risen. If the police were out in force on the areas where drugs are common, we probably wouldn’t have had as many turf wars as we had last year.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Ok and so what happens when what you do becomes against the laws they tell you you must obey?

The laws are brought in by the people YOU elect, if you dont like them why did you vote?

You ever been in a situation where you have to deal with a prosecutor here in the land of the free? I was speeding on a motorcycle some years back and they wanted to nail me for fleeing and eluding, a felony and a two year prison term.

No I aint, now the incident you mention can I ask one serios question?
Where you speeding and DIDNT see the cops?

It didnt matter if I was guilty or innocent, they wanted me as an example for motorcyclists. I was going to be there poster boy.

Now thats an opinion not a fact.

I will tell you this right now. You put any law on the books and the prosecution will not show any restraint, they will use the tools availible to them to prosecute. Right or wrong, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, they will nail you with the tools at hand.

Thats an opinion, if the police are that desperate to nail you then you must have done something wrong.

No way do I want this to get any worst. The government has turned the corner in 2001 and have become a problem.

Any wose? You mean like people crying out for security but not providing any ideas on how to do so?

Overall: Your allowing yourselves to get lead around by someone and I need not say who it is.
Know your enemies, dont shoot your friends.
Figure out if its worthwhile to argue with them or not and I say forget it this guy wont change (you know who)
Jeez, when you allow people to divide you ON A FORUM how are you going to stay united in the real world, this makes me sick
As a whole you need to group up and do something about it and if its failed or taking no affect tell me what you tried and I will make some suggestions (real life off of this forum).
Remember people like to hastle and act tough on here because they dont have to worry about you going to their home and giving them a piece of your mind even if its only mano a mano by words.
Get a grip on yourselves and unite, heck if you are the future of this nation or are part OF it I would hope you would be able to do this by now.