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New Evidence of Saddam's Ties With Al-Queda

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posted on Jan, 13 2006 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by Boatphone

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
While I'd love to just take your word for that... Got a link?

Yes. I can't believe you don't know this.

She's obviously goofing with you. Either that or she wants Baghdad Bob's old job.






One of my favorite BB quotes:

April 5, 2003
"They are not near Baghdad. Don't believe them.... They said they entered with... tanks in the middle of the capital. They claim that they - I tell you, I... that this speech is too far from the reality. It is a part of this sickness of their plan. There is no an... - no any existence to the American troops or for the troops in Baghdad at all."
BB





posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
but I'm pretty much convinced that a majority of Saddam's people wanted him in power, even if it wasn't 100%.

Even if it was 51%...


[edit on 13-1-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]


How can you think this? You don't follow current events at all?

I'm sorry but if you don't know of Saddam's evil rule over Iraq, I have no choice but to believe you are 100% ignorant of the facts.

-- Boat

PS: You really think that Saddam was liked by even 14% of the population?!?



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by Boatphone
How can you think this? You don't follow current events at all?

I'm sorry but if you don't know of Saddam's evil rule over Iraq, I have no choice but to believe you are 100% ignorant of the facts.

-- Boat

PS: You really think that Saddam was liked by even 14% of the population?!?


I don't know! Who were the people dancing in the street? Who were the people marking their ballots with blood to show their loyalty to Saddam?

I actually don't know how Iraqis felt about him. And I really don't appreciate being made fun of for being honest about something I'm ignorant about. There's a lot of stuff I know, but I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything.

And if you're going to assume, after the discussions that we've been in before that I don't follow current events at all or that I am 100% ignorant of the facts just because I don't know about one thing, then I'm not the ignorant one.

Instead of making fun of me, show me the data.

I have asked for links and for data to deny my ignorance, but I really haven't gotten much help here. Statements made by our government (or their mouthpieces) mean nothing to me. I want to hear what the Iraqi's think and say about it! And keep in mind that over 50% of the people in the US would talk down about Bush, but we still voted him in and he's still our president, even though there are protests against him and this board is alive with talk of Bush's evil rule over the US!

People hate him! He's killed 30,000 people (in Iraq) and many say he's evil! But we voted him as our president.

Keep in mind, the Iraqis don't think with one mind any more than we do in the US. We are divided. They are too. Do you really know how many Iraqis supported Saddam?

Yes, it's wierd in Iraq, it's different than how people act in the US. Kurds were not required to vote and they opposed him. I get all this. I understand it. But with the numbers of Iraqi insurgents (and I mean Iraqi citizens) that we're fighting over there, I cannot help but wonder what we really know about the Iraqi people's loyalty to their ex-president.

josbecky - I'm not 'goofing'. I'm questioning the information that has been presented and accepted as fact. I'm being skeptical. I'm denying ignorance. I'm looking for the truth. If all you can do is make fun and call me ignorant, then I will assume you don't really know either.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:48 AM
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I gave you a direct link to an Iraqi, is that not enough? You asked, I provided, I gave you a google link with MORE than enough information for your to look at.

Saddam was known for human rights violations. I mean, have you ever read what happened when he finally came to power? You would have no direct links because anyone who opposed him was killed. Taken out of the assembly, and never heard from again. Hussien is not like NK Kim, where the information is hard to pin down and validify.

He always let people know exactly what he was going to do, and he controlled his country through not threat of violence but promise.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:05 AM
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BH,

web.amnesty.org...



Some died under torture. When their bodies were returned to their families they bore evident signs of torture, including the gouging out of the eyes, marks of severe beatings and electric shocks and finger- and toe-nails being removed.




in mid-2000 amputation of the tongue was reportedly approved by the authorities as a new penalty for slander or abusive remarks about the President or his family.


Is this proof enough? You don't see President Bush cutting out peoples tongues! Frankly, I find the fact that you could compare President Bush to Saddam offensive.

If you think the Iraqi people loved a man who toutures them to death, you must not think Iraqi's are very smart.


-- Boat

[edit on 14-1-2006 by Boatphone]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by esdad71
I gave you a direct link to an Iraqi, is that not enough?


AN Iraqi? No, that's not enough to tell me how all of Iraq felt. If we talk to AN American, would you base the whole country's feelings of George W. Bush on that one person???



Saddam was known for human rights violations.


I'm not arguing that. I'm not suggesting that he is a good man. I'm not arguing that he tortured and killed people. I'm arguing that he was elected by the people of Iraq and had a support base in his country, just as Bush has here. That's all.

Here are some links that convey what I'm trying to get across:

Third World Opinion of Saddam



So, in the Third World at large, while Saddam was not considered a hero, he certainly is not regarded as the "Hitler-like" dictator that the Bush administration depicted him in the days preceding the US invasion of Iraq.


Some Iraqis' Opinions



An eager waiter lifted the sleeve of his manager's shirt to reveal a watch with Saddam's smiling visage on its face. The waiter kissed the watch. "Saddam was Iraqi," said the manager, "there was security and stability under Saddam." Another waiter complained, "America is the dirtiest of the dirty. They were worse than Saddam."


Diversity of Iraqis



That we should expect all Iraqis to either welcome us with open arms and flowers or with hand grenades and Kalashnikovs speaks to our continued inability to appreciate them as a diverse people--not just a homogeneous group of olive-skinned, Arab-speaking Muslims. Americans, by and large, know so little about this part of the world that it is difficult for us to see the Iraqis as people with an wide variety of opinions and convictions, who live under a wide range of social and economic circumstances.

A few days ago, a BBC reporter asked a couple of Iraqi women what they felt about their leader and the ongoing conflict. The younger one, after being assured that her name would not be used, spoke softly but forcefully, “I am anti-Saddam, but I wish him all the best in defending our country.”


Iraqis Want Saddam Back

Thursday, December 01, 2005



“Iraqis have asked the defence team to study the legal conditions to present Saddam Hussein as a candidate for elections, first as an MP then as president,” Jordan’s Al-Dustour daily quoted former Qatari justice minister Najib al-Nuaimi as saying.

Asked by AFP about Nuaimi’s reported remarks, Ghazzawi said: “As we were leaving Iraq on Tuesday ordinary Iraqis at the airport approached us saying they wished that Saddam would return (as president).”

“These Iraqis said ‘we have lost security after Saddam, how we wish he would return’,” Ghazzawi said.


More Iraqis' Reactions



The shop’s owner, Ali Abbass, said about half of Iraqis still mourn the fall of Saddam.

“Most of the Iraqis think we don’t like Saddam Hussein, but we do not like the foreigners coming in and taking him,” he said. “We wished the Iraqis had dealt with him. “I used to hate Saddam very much, but when I saw the Americans come and deal with him, I was very sad.”


I submit that we, in our Western World View, don’t know how the level of nationalism, loyalty and feelings of stability contribute to Saddam being elected as president of Iraq. I’m saying that perhaps no outsider really knows the extent of allegiance and ownership Iraqis felt about their country and their leader, even if they were afraid of him or hated him.

I’m not saying he was a hero or that he was a great leader or that his people loved him. I’m not saying he wasn’t a dictator and murderer. I’m only saying that the people of the country of Iraq, for whatever reason, voted to retain him as their president. And that he has/had a support base and nobody really knows how many Iraqis really supported him.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:49 AM
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BH,

So, you believe that Saddam got 100% of the vote (as Saddam says). Then are you saying that all the people he tourtured voted for him?

Please, responed to my post above...

-- Boat



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Boatphone
So, you believe that Saddam got 100% of the vote (as Saddam says). Then are you saying that all the people he tourtured voted for him?


I'm saying I don't know what happened.

It's not conceivable that 100% of the people of Iraq voted and they all voted for Saddam. So no, I don't believe that.

But:

It was in 2002, when a foreign presence was threatening to invade their beloved Iraq. Nobody wanted war and many, whether they supported Saddam or loathed him, didn't want the instability that this presense promised. In my research, I have found that many people who hated him might very well vote for him because they felt a loyalty and allegiance to Iraq, and therefore Saddam. They felt that Saddam would protect Iraq and therefore them.

I'm not claiming that they had free and open democratic elections. Who does, these days? I'm just saying there were a lot of Saddam supporters that we never hear about and although 100% is not plausible, we don't know the numbers, and therefore cannot say with certainty that the election (referendum) was invalid.



Please, responed to my post above...

-- Boat


I have said that I agree that Saddam tortured and killed people.

I have said that the Iraqi people didn't 'love' him.

I don't know what answer you're looking for. I agree with you on these points.

In my opinion, the difference between Bush and Saddam is quantitative, not qualitative. Bush has endorsed torture and indefinite detention without charge, two practices Saddam also used. There have been numerous documentated cases of detainees dying under US administered torture. Bush hasn't approved the cutting of tongues, as far as I know, but have you seen some of the pictures of his detention camps and what they do to people there? It would be naive for us to think that we know all that Bush is doing and has done to further his agenda in this war on terror.

In my opinion, these specific comparisons between Bush and Saddam are valid. I have no intention whatsoever to offend you or anyone. I'm just making observations and stating my opinion.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's not conceivable that 100% of the people of Iraq voted and they all voted for Saddam. So no, I don't believe that.


Good. We agree here.



It was in 2002, when a foreign presence was threatening to invade their beloved Iraq. Nobody wanted war and many, whether they supported Saddam or loathed him, didn't want the instability that this presense promised. In my research, I have found that many people who hated him might very well vote for him because they felt a loyalty and allegiance to Iraq, and therefore Saddam. They felt that Saddam would protect Iraq and therefore them.


Fair enough. I agree.


I'm not claiming that they had free and open democratic elections.


Good. The facts agree with this.



Who does, these days?


The United States of America

Great Britain

Canada

Mexico

Spain

Norway

Finland

Denmark

Germany

France

Austraila

New Zealand

Costa Rica

Belize

Tajikistan

And now Iraq!

the list goes on and on....




I'm just saying there were a lot of Saddam supporters that we never hear about and although 100% is not plausible, we don't know the numbers, and therefore cannot say with certainty that the election (referendum) was invalid.


You do realize that there was only one person running: Saddam, right? How can you believe there is any possiblity that any type of elections could happen, when no one is allow to run against Saddam???


In my opinion, these specific comparisons between Bush and Saddam are valid. I have no intention whatsoever to offend you or anyone. I'm just making observations and stating my opinion.


See in America you are free to say anyhting you want about President Bush, he will not kill you and your family. With Saddam that was the case, they seem very different to me.

-- Boat

[edit on 14-1-2006 by Boatphone]

[edit on 14-1-2006 by Boatphone]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
josbecky - I'm not 'goofing'. I'm questioning the information that has been presented and accepted as fact. I'm being skeptical. I'm denying ignorance. I'm looking for the truth. If all you can do is make fun and call me ignorant, then I will assume you don't really know either.

If you're not goofing, then you've got a whole lot to learn. If you can't see Saddam's election for the farce it is, then you're beyond hope. I don't think that you can't see it for the farce it is, just based on the fact that you have no problem bashing Bush. So you do have that capability.

So, please pardon me if I have a hard time swallowing that plaintive cry of "I just want to learn! Please give me a link!".



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 12:00 PM
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Alot of people have hidden agendas when coming forward with "new evidence" just remember that guys
people will do anything to see Saddam rot



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Boatphone

Who does, these days?


The United States of America
...
And now Iraq!


I'm sorry, but, yeah, riiiight.




You do realize that there was only one person running: Saddam, right? How can you believe there is any possiblity that any type of elections could happen, when no one is allow to run against Saddam???


Yes, I realize it was a referendum to keep Saddam as president, not an actual election between several candidates as we have here in the US, but a vote whether to keep him as president or not.



See in America you are free to say anyhting you want about President Bush, he will not kill you and your family.


This sounds like, out of the kindness of his heart, Bush gave us our right to freedom of speech, when I'm quite sure he'd just love to shut me up!

Our freedom of speech wasn't granted by Bush! His hands are tied by men much wiser than he!

In fact, if he has his way, that free-speech think you're touting there is on its way out, too.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 12:31 PM
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This sounds like, out of the kindness of his heart, Bush gave us our right to freedom of speech, when I'm quite sure he'd just love to shut me up!


What makes you think President Bush would want to "shut you up"?


Our freedom of speech wasn't granted by Bush! His hands are tied by men much wiser than he!


Of course they were not, but President Bush enjoys freedoms of all.


In fact, if he has his way, that free-speech think you're touting there is on its way out, too.


What makes you think this? You are just making things up!

-- Boat


[edit on 14-1-2006 by Boatphone]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:31 PM
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I give you a link on what an Iraqi states about Hussien, and itt is countered by saying that is like asking the opinion of one person. However, one can quote an Iraqi about how BAD America is and it should be gospel.




posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by zappafan1
...we force freedom and liberty down the throats of tyrants and dictators...


I'm sorry, but that's just funny!



However, whatever they vote for, in the end it will still be better than the oppressive government they had under Saddam and his two sons.


Are you sure about that? You do know that the people of Iraq voted for Saddam to be their president, right?

[edit on 13-1-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]


REPLY: You haven't heard of the people who ran against him being harassed or shot? Ans the people (for the most part) who were watched as to who voted for his detractors?

As for: ".....we force freedom and liberty down the throats of tyrants and dictators..." it's worked most everywhere.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by makeitso


Originally posted by DaFunk13
I dont want to start a firefight but...
Does anyone have any reliable statistics showing the percentage of foreign fighters in Iraqin comparison to the actual Iraqi citizens fighting to keep the occupation out?




Brookings Institute PDF

ESTIMATED STRENGTH OF (IRAQ) INSURGENCY NATIONWIDE
October 2005: 15,000 – 20,000

ESTIMATED NUMBER OF FOREIGN FIGHTERS IN THE INSURGENCY (IRAQ)
October 2005: 700 – 2,000


REPLY: Totally off-topic.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 01:00 AM
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I think certain people are missing the point of what Benevolent Heretic is saying.

Unless I am greatly mistaken she is saying that despite his evil image in the west he did have a base of support among Iraqis a rather significant base I might add. Lets not delude ourselves into thinking that all Iraqi's supported the overthrow of Saddam. It's a given that anyone who joined the Iraqi army and police forces supported Saddam, it's a given that all the politicians and businessmen supported Saddam, it's a given that anyone who profited from his reign supported Saddam. We're not exactly talking about a tiny portion of the population here. Yes the election's were a sham, that doesn't change the fact that a significant percentage of the population would have supported the election of Saddam anyway. Like Benevolent heretic said we don't really know what kind of support Saddam had we only know what we've been told.

Look at Germany after WW2 everyone gave some kind of excuse about their Nazism (we were too scared, we had no choice etc.) yet obviously despite the collective denial of post-WW2 Germans he must have had some support. If every German secretly didn't support Hitler how did he get elected in the first place? Tacit support is still support and obviously Saddam had the tacit support of a fairly large percentage of the Iraqi population.

Saying that all Iraqi's supported the overthrow of Saddam is like saying all American's supported the reelection of Bush.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:24 PM
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There is no comparison between the Nazi's and Iraq and their people. HItler used a dissillsuioned country starving after WW 1 and sent them to attempt to conquer the world. He could have done it if he were not so eccentric.


Now If you were a party member in Iraq, you were given more privelge, but at anytime Uday could knock on your door for whatever they felt fit, and you would be imprisoned, tortured or killed.. Look into the ties his sons had with terrorism also.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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This is sad, seriously. You people need to wake up.

And I will add my two cents about this comment:

''...we will force liberty down the throats of dictators.''

That's sounds like something a dictator would say......

And replacing one dictator with another is not ''liberation.''

[edit on 15-1-2006 by LetKnowledgeDrop]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by LetKnowledgeDrop
This is sad, seriously. You people need to wake up.

And I will add my two cents about this comment:

''...we will force liberty down the throats of dictators.''

That's sounds like something a dictator would say......

And replacing one dictator with another is not ''liberation.''

[edit on 15-1-2006 by LetKnowledgeDrop]


REPLY: As I mentioned before, it's worked well in the past... read: Europe!!

No, you should have said ".. TO ME... that sounds like something a dictator would say." However, it's the truth. Oh... I'm not a dictator. Don't you have something of quality to contribute?

Oh.... please provide a link as to info on the new "dictator." As it looks now, there are about 12 million "dictators"... and they all have purple fingers; is one pointed at you? 8^)



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