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What we westener's want

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posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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Well eddie, we can get the above, but theres one problem with it.

Ignorance, and over information.

The two are on the opposite ends of the spectrum but yet most people seem to be on one end or the other or in the massive grey inbetween.




posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 03:37 PM
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What we westerner's want is for the Iraqi people to grow up and stop acting like a bunch of pyscopathic looney-tunes.


I'm a westerner and so far I disagree with your whole first sentence. Maybe you should perfect speaking for yourself before you presume to act as mouthpiece for an entire hemisphere?



You have a real opportunity to create a new and better country and instead you ALLOW morons like the Al-zahari or whatever his stupid name is to run free and war on his own people for some distorted (and false) view of Islam.


Considering that the might of the US military is having trouble quelling the resistance, I highly doubt the efficacy of an unorganized mob with no practical model for governance. I think they are the ones who should have disposed of the dictator, but they were never able to do so (and not for lack of trying). Maybe if we had waited longer there would have been progress. Indeed, and maybe if France had not intervened in the revolutionary war, we would be singing God Bless the Queen.

Just something to consider...



Yes you've had it rough and STILL have it rough but you have never been in a better position to pick your future path.


That's always the case, for everyone.



When was the last time you were able to choose your government.


Hussein was a reasonably popular guy in most areas of Iraq. The cult of personality was working over-time, and despite the state-sponsored torture and murder, and the disappearances, a lot of people genuinely supported his rule because it was better than the alternative.

He actually supported a few underdogs ( the mandeans (sp?) spring to mind immediately) against oppression by a fundamentalist Islamic majority. Obviously, the guy was not a peaceful, benevolent ruler, but he kept the lights on and the water running, and sometimes that's enough for desperate people.

To some groups, he was a civil rights pioneer! Roll that around for a bit...


People in Iraq have always had the right to choose. If they all simultaneously got fed up and stormed the palaces, they could have installed a new government. Obviously Hussein enjoyed enough support that such a thing never took place (successfully).



We want the middle east in general, to grow up and stop acting like a bunch of pyscopathic looney tunes.


Our government wants the middle east to do business at the barrel of a gun, and that's just not how business is done. Your broad generalizations are growing tiresome BTW...



The truth is, most people couldn't care less if Islam exists or not, they just want to go to the football and live their lives in peace.


We could have lived our lives in peace if we hadn't marched off to war.




Yes, we come over and bomb your people, what do you expect when you try and screw us over with high oil prices and constantly act like little children fighting over candy as your war amongst your self over and over again?


So if a merchant doesn't charge the price you want him to charge, you're well within your rights to shoot him and take his merchandise? That's ludicrous. What sort of functioning society operates under such an assumption?



Oil IS AS IMPORTANT AS WATER so tell me how you would feel if someone was threatening your supply of water?


No it isn't. The analogy is poor. Without water you would die in days. Life without petroleum products is not nearly as comfortable as you're used to, but history is replete with examples of civilizations who managed to get by without the luxury of V12 engines and heat on demand.

For God's sake, tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars to save an obese nation the trouble of walking to the store for vittles. That's near-sighted, self-destructive savagery, which just so happens to be the 'Iraqi/Arab/Islamic' vice condemned by so many Americans, including yourself. That's finely honed irony...

The fact is we all commit the same sins, we're all struggling with the same problems, we all help to create the future, and we all have to live with the results. There are few things more primitive than being unable to see reflections of your own face in that of your fellow man.

[edit on 10-1-2006 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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... for the poster who mentioned creating alternative energy sources while implying that us (the West) being at the mercy of oil producing countries was somehow the fault or scheme of the middle-eastern oil companies to really think about who had the biggest finanical interest in the trade in oil...


That was me and I did mention it or are you refering to someone else? My father works in the oil industry and has done all his life and while it has provided me with a good standard of life and that of the rest of my family I still find it astounding that at the start of the 21st century we are still dependant on buring fossils for our energy.

Yeah we in the West make a killing out of middle eastern oil. Heck ,thats the only reason we even deal with the Saudis. I just wonder how much beter the middle east would be off without oil.

Back to the post. I agree that we in the west should be open to more criticism. The same should apply to the arabs.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by HumanBean
Yes, we come over and bomb your people, what do you expect when you try and screw us over with high oil prices

Thats pretty disgusting.

Some people choose to pay higher prices by purchasing gasoline, the price of which is controlled by the economy, the middle eastern governments, and the western oil companies, and that is an actual reason to kill people?

You should really take the 'We westerners' out of your diatribe and replace it with "Greetings Fellow Extremists"


Oil IS AS IMPORTANT AS WATER

No its not. I'll agree its important, but its not as important as water and exists in a couple of places besides the middle east.

so tell me how you would feel if someone was threatening your supply of water?

Its not your oil, in case you didn't notice.


Bah, a fat lot of good this letter will do anyway

Oh no I think it will really result in a good dialog between peoples, since its so reasonable and well thought out an all.



It only takes one infant to die because their parents can't afford medacine, because the medacine is made in Europe and costs 2x as much as it did before, because the price of oil has gone up so much that the jet fuel used to fly the medacine to America costs 5x as much as it did before.

Preposterous. And still un-justifiable. Rather than do any number of other things to help these children you allegedly are concerned about, you see murdering other people for oil as a better strategem? Nonsense.


I still think there are some valid points in my post though, even if it wasn't delivered very well

There isn't a single point in that post, short of "Its fine to kill people if it saves you some money and inconvience".


it is a valid reason to go to war

No, murder is not justified over price changes. If "they" shut off their oil pumps, then there might be something to talk about, keeping in mind that there are plenty of other places that supply the US with oil. But you're not talking about a shut off, you're talking about 'high prices', prices caused by, yes, the governments over there, and the governments over here, and the companies that sell the stuff.
Would you say its a good idea to murder any politician that wouldn't lower the tax on gasoline?
Is it good to murder any car designer who doesn't make the vehicle more efficient, and thus save you money?

The terrorists and extremists in the middle east refer to american econimic imperialism as a justification for kidnapping and murder and things like 911. They say that american and western economic effects are holding them down, and this is a good reason to kill lots of people.
You are saying the exact same thing. You are extolling a programme that you call "pyscopathic looney-tunes". Notice, if you had been born between a different set of borders, but were otherwise the same, you'd be a guy on a soapbox at a rally calling out for the destruction of americans and australians to the crowd, and condeming westerners for being ticked off about this call.
No?



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by HumanBean

what do you expect when you try and screw us over with high oil prices and constantly act like little children fighting over candy as your war amongst your self over and over again? Oil IS AS IMPORTANT AS WATER so tell me how you would feel if someone was threatening your supply of water?

Bah, a fat lot of good this letter will do anyway



I can't believe you wrote that!!
Maybe in a future when someone decide to attack your country because they reached the conclusion that the US in a treath to the world or because they want something that belongs to the US (like the oil belongs to the Arab countries), I bet that you would have a complete different opinion.
And the US will one day be a secondary power in the world, and when that time comes then many Americans like you will feel how the others felt, when they where attacked and their families killed by the bombs of a prepotent and stronger nation.
You would be ashamed!



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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Okay, everybody line up in single file, no pushing or shoving, everybody will have a chance to let HumanBean know how disgusted they are with his post. I'm sure it will be moved soon, maybe even before I finish typing. I think though that he said he was angry at the time it was posted, I can relate, sometimes I get really mad when there's a traffic jam and I gotta be somewhere, so I start yelling to myself that there better be a body count from whatever accident is causing it, then I realize that was a really stupid, selfish thing to say. Maybe HumanBean feels the same.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 04:41 PM
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What we westeners want


-A better education system ('cuz we can't spell too good.)

-Cheetos

-Oil

-New episodes of our favorite reality tv shows.

-To be contestants on American idol.

-One year subscription to Bally Weight loss.

-Oil

-Another bad of cheetos

-More fuel to feed the flames of our delusion that we are the end all be all righteous crusaders of all that is good and decent.

-Church and state wall crumbling down like the berlin wall (and if we can get bono to sing while it happens that would be cool too.)

-A non-corrupt government (oh wait, thats just something I want, nevermind.)



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 05:21 PM
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Why are you guys feeding this troll? He obviously has no idea what he is talking about. In fact, this thread should be closed.

Enough with the "im so digusted" crap. This guy is either really young or mentaly disabled.

[edit on 10-1-2006 by Dronetek]



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar


What we westeners want


-A better education system ('cuz we can't spell too good.)


WuT dew yoO meEn byE dAt? EyE kEn sPeL GRayte. eYe reeZent DaT.



-Cheetos


You know, I believe in a mass marketing attempt to introduce cheetos to the Ukraine, they actually sparked the orange revolution. How silly of everybody to assume the orange fingers were a political statement.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 06:16 PM
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I was gearing up to launch a absolut torrent of abuse on to your nieve head, but i will controll myself.
Makes a change for me. So i will ansewer your original question.

What we as Westerners want.

I (as a Brit) want my famaly and freinds serving in Iraq to come home from a absolutly unjustified war. I would also like America to stop trying to speak for the rest of the Western countrys, also you are not the world police. Finaly i would like Iraq to enjoy the wealth and the good life that comes from THEM selling THERE oil at watever price they consider fair.

Ohh and dont start calling me a Bush basher. Its just that the UK is not and never will be the 51st State, so i do not appreciated them speaking for me.

Pickle.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 07:49 PM
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OK, here we go again.

So, you think is oil is not as important of water then. OK, lets imagine a scenario where suddenly, there is no petrol or oil left:

You go to the supermarket to get food for your family. Oh wait, you can't because there is no petrol in your car. Anyway, after walking to the supermarket you find the shelves are empty because they sold out long ago and no one is there besides because because their cars all run out of petrol too.

So you walk home with no food and then you have to explain to your kids why they have to go hungy, unless.... you have food growing in your back yard. Enough to exist off of permanently. But you don't do you? And even if you did, how long before some gang of hungry people took it off your hands. At this point, naturally, the people are getting really angry and are starting to blame the government (like they always do because our society is really good at whinging) who still have petrol left because they have power.

Now the government, as they watch the ever increasing Anarchy, are thinking you are all acting like a bunch of monkeys because there is rioting and looting yet all you are is a whole people who have no easy access to food or water because your society long ago forgot how to live and be dependent on itself.

At this point, your children may get sick to. No problem, you can just go to the doctors. Except, the doctor didn't go to work because:
a) There's no medicine because no one has any fuel to get it there and the doctor's office was looted for drugs long ago by a rioting populace
b) You can't get to the doctors because armed gangs of people are roving the street taking by force what they once used to be able to easily buy
c) He has problems of his own

So please, enough with the self-rightiousness, because you would be screeming JUST AS LOUD as everyone else if you found yourself in anything like the situiation above. Now, to answer some points



We want the middle east in general, to grow up and stop acting like a bunch of pyscopathic looney tunes

Our government wants the middle east to do business at the barrel of a gun, and that's just not how business is done. Your broad generalizations are growing tiresome BTW...

No, we have to use the barrel of a gun because the middle east can't get a long. And these broad generalizations are neccessary because if you don't hit people in the head then they don't read your posts fully. I have seen that and then some



Yes, we come over and bomb your people, what do you expect when you try and screw us over with high oil prices and constantly act like little children fighting over candy as your war amongst your self over and over again?

So if a merchant doesn't charge the price you want him to charge, you're well within your rights to shoot him and take his merchandise? That's ludicrous. What sort of functioning society operates under such an assumption?

Well that depends on if the merchant is selling you something you really need or not, doesn't it. Oh wait, we don't really need oil. I keep forgetting

Imagine you are in the desert, you need water and you come across a merchant who is willing to sell you water (at 5x what it's worth). The only problem is, he's not sure if the water shipment will arrive because the other merchant that he is at war with often steals his shipments or collapses his wells.



Oil IS AS IMPORTANT AS WATER so tell me how you would feel if someone was threatening your supply of water?

No it isn't. The analogy is poor. Without water you would die in days. Life without petroleum products is not nearly as comfortable as you're used to, but history is replete with examples of civilizations who managed to get by without the luxury of V12 engines and heat on demand

How much food do you have stockpiled. Do you know how to live off the land?


For God's sake, tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars to save an obese nation the trouble of walking to the store for vittles. That's near-sighted, self-destructive savagery, which just so happens to be the 'Iraqi/Arab/Islamic' vice condemned by so many Americans, including yourself. That's finely honed irony...

Wake up, there would be no food at the corner store because there would be no petrol to get it there



It only takes one infant to die because their parents can't afford medacine, because the medacine is made in Europe and costs 2x as much as it did before, because the price of oil has gone up so much that the jet fuel used to fly the medacine to America costs 5x as much as it did before

Preposterous. And still un-justifiable. Rather than do any number of other things to help these children you allegedly are concerned about, you see murdering other people for oil as a better strategem? Nonsense.

Yeah, preposterous unless it's your kid who is sick or about to die. I tell you, if I had to kill to protect my children I would and most people would be the same regardless of if they have the guts to admit it


The terrorists and extremists in the middle east refer to american econimic imperialism as a justification for kidnapping and murder and things like 911. They say that american and western economic effects are holding them down, and this is a good reason to kill lots of people.
You are saying the exact same thing. You are extolling a programme that you call "pyscopathic looney-tunes". Notice, if you had been born between a different set of borders, but were otherwise the same, you'd be a guy on a soapbox at a rally calling out for the destruction of americans and australians to the crowd, and condeming westerners for being ticked off about this call.
No?

How does that change the validity of anything I've said? I don't blame them for being angry, but that is part of the problem here


Enough with the "im so digusted" crap. This guy is either really young or mentaly disabled


No kidding, you people are so used to your way of life and of whinging about the government you can't see how lucky we are to have the county(s) that they have provided. Seriously, wake up and look at the bigger picture. The middle east has a gun-barrel pointed at our head to. They control somethin we need. all we are doing is pointing one back.

All I ever hear are threads whinging about corrupt governments that lie to us but they only lie to us because we are so small minded and jump to the first conclusion that the media feeds us and cry bloody-murder over rediculous points. Look at how narrow minded some of the above posts are: "We don't need oil, it just makes life more comfortable". Honestly, if I was in government I would laugh at the ignorance of most people if it wasn't for the fact that they had the power to vote me out



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by picklewalsh
Ohh and dont start calling me a Bush basher. Its just that the UK is not and never will be the 51st State, so i do not appreciated them speaking for me.


Whatever Bush basher.


What picklewalsh is really saying is that he is 100% in support of the Bush administration and any agenda they may deem necessary to spread freedom and democracy to every corner of the globe. The U.S. government appreciates the unconditional support that's coming from our 51st state.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
Whatever Bush basher.


What picklewalsh is really saying is that he is 100% in support of the Bush administration and any agenda they may deem necessary to spread freedom and democracy to every corner of the globe. The U.S. government appreciates the unconditional support that's coming from our 51st state.


I think this is what it's really all about. The rest of the free world is pissed off at the US because of tall-poppy syndrome. I think that they just HATE the fact that if it wasn't for the US then their asses would all be speaking german by now. Or maybe Russian. One of the two

So now, when the US sets about doing what the rest of the world doesn't have the guts (or ability) to do they moan and bitch but are secretly glad. I say "Down with America! Lets have Russia or China for a super power instead, I think they'd do a great job and treat all countries fairly and equally!"



I was gearing up to launch a absolut torrent of abuse on to your nieve head

Do you see the irony of mispelling naive? Oh wait, I can't spell either


[edit on 10/1/2006 by HumanBean]



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by HumanBean
So now, when the US sets about doing what the rest of the world doesn't have the guts (or ability) to do they moan and bitch but are secretly glad. I say "Down with America! Lets have Russia or China for a super power instead, I think they'd do a great job and treat all countries fairly and equally!"


Yeah sure. Russians or the Chinese will treat all countries fairly if they were the superpower.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 08:17 PM
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Many of the posts here don't address the subject of this thread, despiste attempts at some to post and answer and others to ask to stay on topic. A few are downright silly and below the level of Deny Ignorance.
And, let's lose the personal remarks NOW.

This thread is close to being moved.
Last chance to keep it on topic


[edit on 10-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 08:20 PM
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Where will it be moved to? Perhaps it would be better if it were moved. I regret the wording of my first post (though not the arguments contained within) and think that the thread's already beyond saving



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by enslaved83
Yeah we in the West make a killing out of middle eastern oil. Heck ,thats the only reason we even deal with the Saudis. I just wonder how much beter the middle east would be off without oil.

Back to the post. I agree that we in the west should be open to more criticism. The same should apply to the arabs.

We in the West make a killing out of middle eastern oil? How's that?

Think about it - we have made nomadic tribes some of the wealthiest people on the face of the earth by paying for their oil. Fair trade, I'm not complaining about that. You were right - that's the only reason we deal with the Saudis.

But we've created a monster in the process.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 09:17 PM
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OK, in the interests of toning down the thread a little readers may find this link interesting. It is an unbiased view of the dynamics between the Middle East (as members of OPEC) and the Western world:

en.wikipedia.org...

As you can see (if you read it) both sides have an element of blame but it does illustrate why the Middle East region is of such importance to the US even if it doesn't justify their involvment. Either way it makes for an interesting read and will hopefully help to deny ignorance a little



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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So you walk home with no food and then you have to explain to your kids why they have to go hungy, unless.... you have food growing in your back yard. Enough to exist off of permanently. But you don't do you?


I do have food growing in my backyard, and I don't have any kids! Everyone should grow at least SOME food, but it's usually impractical to grow enough for an entire year on the average suburban/town lot, so creative solutions are required. Know anything about urban hydroponics? The risk of massive destabilization due to loss of steady fuel supply could be almost totally eliminated by a return to the model of 'locally produced-locally consumed.'

Modern greenhouses are quite efficient, in terms of both water and energy use. Fish can be raised in a barrel on the cheap, and they taste nearly as delicious as their free-range counterparts.

Preparation is the key. Every hour, every dollar, every life we sacrifice while chasing expendable resources, they cripple our nation more completely.



And even if you did, how long before some gang of hungry people took it off your hands.


No doubt some hungry people would try. We could mitigate the disaster with forethought and careful planning, which should be the goal at this point. The government can only do so much (and it really isn't much all things considered), the vast majority of the responsibility rests with individuals and their ability to cooperate with other individuals under pressure, in a crisis.

Maybe instead of paying out BILLIONS in useless subsidies to satisfy kickback quotas, we could begin processing great quantities of bio-diesel and storing it for emergency use.

We could kill two birds with one stone by processing landfills into fuel, and using the newly recovered land to build warerhouses for industrial hydroponics operations.

A lot of fuel also gets used up covering home heating needs. I would bet a large percentage of people could switch to sawdust pellets and never break stride. You can certainly heat a cabin or a condo with a pellet stove, and don't even get me started on the overall efficiency of small concrete dome homes.

If some guy relies on the gas company for heat, and the water company for water, and the supermarket for food, and the police for protection, and the state for disaster assistance, well..that guy is going to have a very rude awakening eventually.



At this point, your children may get sick to. No problem, you can just go to the doctors. Except, the doctor didn't go to work because:
a) There's no medicine because no one has any fuel to get it there and the doctor's office was looted for drugs long ago by a rioting populace
b) You can't get to the doctors because armed gangs of people are roving the street taking by force what they once used to be able to easily buy
c) He has problems of his own


So we invaded Iraq to protect the children from getting sick in the event of a US economic collapse. Creative reasoning to say the least.

Pharmaceutical factories in India not only produce life-saving medicine, they do so at the expense of the local environment, and the health of local populations. Do the local populations surrounding these factories storm the warehouse every time a kid gets sick? No, they don't. Why not? Because they're civilized.




So please, enough with the self-rightiousness, because you would be screeming JUST AS LOUD as everyone else if you found yourself in anything like the situiation above.


No, I disagree. We'll see what the future holds, but I for one am confident in my ability to survive against worse odds than the ones in question. So, once again, I urge you to practice speaking for yourself some more before you try speaking for me or anyone else.



And these broad generalizations are neccessary because if you don't hit people in the head then they don't read your posts fully.


I disagree, and I think you'll find most people consider it bad form to use sensational comments to draw attention to whatever the issue du jour is. Behaving like that cheapens the message considerably, and detracts from personal credibility in the future. That's my experience anyway.

If all you're going for is controversy, that's your perogative I suppose. It works for the MSM.


If your posts have merit, people will read them appreciatively. If you engage individuals in discussion, they too will read your posts thoroughly. Unfortunately, it's impossible to engage individuals in any meaningful way when you think and talk in broad generalizations.



Well that depends on if the merchant is selling you something you really need or not, doesn't it.


No, it doesn't. If such behavior was legal..I shudder to think of it. Have you actually thought of it? What it would be like if people were legally and morally entitled to kill someone for a cheeseburger every time hunger reared its ugly head? That would be anarchy, which is exactly the problem you're ostensibly trying to prevent by waging war. Do you understand?



Imagine you are in the desert, you need water and you come across a merchant who is willing to sell you water (at 5x what it's worth).


In a free market, worth is what the market determines. The seller has every right to charge 5X what his competitors see fit to charge. He also has the 'right' to be muscled out of the market by his more reasonable competitors.

And again, I must object to the water comparison. The two commodities are not at all similar. Water is much, much more important to individual survival and national stability. You can't drink gasoline...



Wake up, there would be no food at the corner store because there would be no petrol to get it there


People still grow food where I live.
The fact that a significant portion of America lives in places that are vulnerable to food shortages cascading down from fuel shortages, that tells me that a significant portion of America hasn't been paying attention.




Yeah, preposterous unless it's your kid who is sick or about to die. I tell you, if I had to kill to protect my children I would and most people would be the same regardless of if they have the guts to admit it


Right, because costly pharmaceuticals have nothing to do with corporate decisions and everything to do with the energy policy of sovereign foreign entity X.


The 30%+ profit margins of multi-national corporations are not worth killing for, nor are they worth dying for. The fact that most pharmaceuticals appear to do more harm than good, and the fact that lifestyle changes have proven results, provides even more of a logical basis for making the switch to more natural alternatives.

You appear to be defending institutionalized banditry and murder for the purpose of price protection.



All I ever hear are threads whinging about corrupt governments that lie to us but they only lie to us because we are so small minded and jump to the first conclusion that the media feeds us and cry bloody-murder over rediculous points.


Do you have any idea who owns the major media outlets? Did you ever stop to think that the popular reaction you describe could very well be a byproduct of the problems we're trying to discuss here on ATS?



Look at how narrow minded some of the above posts are: "We don't need oil, it just makes life more comfortable".


As I said before, humanity has survived admirably without fossil fuels in the past, and could do so again. Luckily, that should never be necessary if people are willing to excercise a reasonable amount of personal responsibility and think more than five seconds into the future.

A big 'if', I know.



posted on Jan, 10 2006 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne

I do have food growing in my backyard, and I don't have any kids! Everyone should grow at least SOME food, but it's usually impractical to grow enough for an entire year on the average suburban/town lot, so creative solutions are required. Know anything about urban hydroponics? The risk of massive destabilization due to loss of steady fuel supply could be almost totally eliminated by a return to the model of 'locally produced-locally consumed.'

Modern greenhouses are quite efficient, in terms of both water and energy use. Fish can be raised in a barrel on the cheap, and they taste nearly as delicious as their free-range counterparts.

Preparation is the key. Every hour, every dollar, every life we sacrifice while chasing expendable resources, they cripple our nation more completely.


I agree. But that does help us now because we are a massively centralised civilization. The vast majority of people live in big cities and are nowhere near agricultural land where they can grow food, let alone enought to be self-sustaining


No doubt some hungry people would try. We could mitigate the disaster with forethought and careful planning, which should be the goal at this point. The government can only do so much (and it really isn't much all things considered), the vast majority of the responsibility rests with individuals and their ability to cooperate with other individuals under pressure, in a crisis.

Maybe instead of paying out BILLIONS in useless subsidies to satisfy kickback quotas, we could begin processing great quantities of bio-diesel and storing it for emergency use.

We could kill two birds with one stone by processing landfills into fuel, and using the newly recovered land to build warerhouses for industrial hydroponics operations.

A lot of fuel also gets used up covering home heating needs. I would bet a large percentage of people could switch to sawdust pellets and never break stride. You can certainly heat a cabin or a condo with a pellet stove, and don't even get me started on the overall efficiency of small concrete dome homes.

If some guy relies on the gas company for heat, and the water company for water, and the supermarket for food, and the police for protection, and the state for disaster assistance, well..that guy is going to have a very rude awakening eventually.


Again, I agree but most people are in this very situation you describe



So we invaded Iraq to protect the children from getting sick in the event of a US economic collapse. Creative reasoning to say the least.

Pharmaceutical factories in India not only produce life-saving medicine, they do so at the expense of the local environment, and the health of local populations. Do the local populations surrounding these factories storm the warehouse every time a kid gets sick? No, they don't. Why not? Because they're civilized.


I actually meant drugs for a deifferent reason, like morphine and the like. Believe me, it happens



No, I disagree. We'll see what the future holds, but I for one am confident in my ability to survive against worse odds than the ones in question. So, once again, I urge you to practice speaking for yourself some more before you try speaking for me or anyone else.



And these broad generalizations are neccessary because if you don't hit people in the head then they don't read your posts fully.


I disagree, and I think you'll find most people consider it bad form to use sensational comments to draw attention to whatever the issue du jour is. Behaving like that cheapens the message considerably, and detracts from personal credibility in the future. That's my experience anyway.

If all you're going for is controversy, that's your perogative I suppose. It works for the MSM.


If your posts have merit, people will read them appreciatively. If you engage individuals in discussion, they too will read your posts thoroughly. Unfortunately, it's impossible to engage individuals in any meaningful way when you think and talk in broad generalizations.


I would like to believe this, but I see little in the way of rational argument when the words War and Iraq are in the same sentence. Most people just start raving about the poor Iraqis and how we are so evil. Who's side are most people on?




Well that depends on if the merchant is selling you something you really need or not, doesn't it.


No, it doesn't. If such behavior was legal.I shudder to think of it. Have you actually thought of it? What it would be like if people were legally and morally entitled to kill someone for a cheeseburger every time hunger reared its ugly head? That would be anarchy, which is exactly the problem you're ostensibly trying to prevent by waging war. Do you understand?


Oh yes it does, if I'm going to risk death and the complete destruction of my way of life because of this merchant then right and wrong go right out the window. And I'm not talking about the legality or rightness of this, just that this is what happens. People get angry when you take away or threaten what they need, that's a fact





Imagine you are in the desert, you need water and you come across a merchant who is willing to sell you water (at 5x what it's worth).


In a free market, worth is what the market determines. The seller has every right to charge 5X what his competitors see fit to charge. He also has the 'right' to be muscled out of the market by his more reasonable competitors.


And again, I must object to the water comparison. The two commodities are not at all similar. Water is much, much more important to individual survival and national stability. You can't drink gasoline...


Yes, they are the same. Object all you like, Oil is the single most valuable commodity on the market today and if it were taken away then you would see suffering on an untold scale.

And because there isn't a free market, that is why the US is in the Middle East


People still grow food where I live.
The fact that a significant portion of America lives in places that are vulnerable to food shortages cascading down from fuel shortages, that tells me that a significant portion of America hasn't been paying attention.


Try telling that to them



Yeah, preposterous unless it's your kid who is sick or about to die. I tell you, if I had to kill to protect my children I would and most people would be the same regardless of if they have the guts to admit it


Right, because costly pharmaceuticals have nothing to do with corporate decisions and everything to do with the energy policy of sovereign foreign entity X.


The 30%+ profit margins of multi-national corporations are not worth killing for, nor are they worth dying for. The fact that most pharmaceuticals appear to do more harm than good, and the fact that lifestyle changes have proven results, provides even more of a logical basis for making the switch to more natural alternatives.

You appear to be defending institutionalized banditry and murder for the purpose of price protection

No, I am defending our way of life. As corrupt and unfair as it may be, that is the way it is



All I ever hear are threads whinging about corrupt governments that lie to us but they only lie to us because we are so small minded and jump to the first conclusion that the media feeds us and cry bloody-murder over rediculous points.


Do you have any idea who owns the major media outlets? Did you ever stop to think that the popular reaction you describe could very well be a byproduct of the problems we're trying to discuss here on ATS?



Look at how narrow minded some of the above posts are: "We don't need oil, it just makes life more comfortable".


As I said before, humanity has survived admirably without fossil fuels in the past, and could do so again. Luckily, that should never be necessary if people are willing to excercise a reasonable amount of personal responsibility and think more than five seconds into the future.

A big 'if', I know.


I think you should watch a few apocalyptic type films or look at what happened in New Orleans when society collapses. As unfurtunate as the whole Iraqi situation is, the US government is acting pre-emptively to protect the US people (and by exstension the world) from this sort of scenario.

History is literally dotted with examples where wars could have been stopped long before they started, take WWII for instance. The Allies knew for years that Hitler was building up the military and despite the fact that it was within their powers to invade and remove Hitler they let him rise and the end result was 60,000,000 people dead.

All I see are people biting the hand that feeds them as they complain about their government's activities. The US government is acting in the US people's (and their own) best interest inspite of the fact that most people have no idea what their best interest is




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