A Real Medical/Research Conspiracy

Now, I have read numerous threads on ATS, even replied to a few, that raise allegations that the government or drug companies are doing this or that to try to kill people. The person authoring the thread explained this often by saying "They are only motivated by money". Exactly, money. Where would this money come from if they kill their consumers?

The real conspiracy in medicine is CONTROLLING these drugs and research, not tainting them. While I am European, I am also interested in American medical politics, being a medical student myself in Firenze. One alarming area I have often read about is the area of embryonic stem cell research. Both America and my own Italia are VERY strict in this field. Why is this? Is it truly that the people of the nation feel that using otherwise useless embryos is abhorrent? Or is it that disinformation has been spread by a few lobbyists and politicians who may personally be against it and want to spread their opinion as edict across the land? THIS article provides some very insightful, and seemingly unbiased (or at least as much as one can truly be) information regarding the nature of embryo, their related stem cells, and American law dictating how this research may be conducted.

I would be very interested to hear other input as to how widespread this conspiracy of misinformation and propanganda is in America and if most people truly believe what is being told to them by politicians.

Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense. English is my third language, after French and my native Italian. Please either post a reply or U2U me if something needs to be clarified further.

Ciao!
~MFP

[edit on 1/7/2006 by bsl4doc]

Hello

I'm in Canada, not the US, but my take on it is that Christian politicians like have the opinion that 'life begins at conception' (not unlike Catholics in Europe, in fact), so the use of stem cells from a terminated pregnancy or a 'spare' embryo from IVF would be be the moral equivalent of taking a wallet from a murder victim. Not sure if I agree with them, but they are at least being morally consistent.

Wasn't there recent research in Nature allowing stem cell harvesting without destroying the embryo? Although admittedly it could have been on mice or something.

TD

Thanks, Taupe. It's nice to have some input from Canada instead of the US again. Yes, the Catholics in Europe feel the same way. Imagine how it is living just four hours from the Vatican., like I do, heh. The main source of stem cells I'm thinking about, however, it produced during fertilization treatments. They produce many, many embryos, impregnate a woman with one, and freeze the rest. If not used within a certain time span, those other embryos are incinerated. Now, why can't we use those? The government calls it "harming innocent life" but it will never become a life and has no prospect of doing so ever. Why not use it, no?

Ciao,
~MFP

Hi bsl4doc, I'm so glad you posted this. I really beleive that the gov't. doesn't want anything to interfere with pharmaceutical profits and they believe that stem cell research would provide cures that the pharmaceutical companies couldn't. Big Pharma is very big here in the U.S. Our representatives have said they don't "believe" in it and that neither do the Christian right or Catholics. I think this is only an excuse for them to contain control of money-making avenues. Don't forget, Bush I was former CEO of Eli-Lilly and Rumsfeld was also on the Board of a pharma company, I think it was also Eli-Lilly. There are others as well. I'm sure they own huge amounts of stock that they don't want to see become worthless.

- Forestlady

Exactly, Forestlady. Our western governments are so caught up in skimming money of the top that they are totally ignoring the amazing power of these stem cells and masking their stance in religion. What is going to happen when some lab in Japan or Korea (minus the one that faked their lab results) finds a treatment for parkinson's or alzheimers? For one, Europe and America will have to pay whatever those labs want for the treatment, never good. And perhaps something they politicians will understand is if the other labs discover it first, the politicians in the west can't make money off of it! hehe

Ciao,
~MFP

I am of the opinion that the Western Governments do what they want and worry about public reaction later. The public is an easy animal to assuage because they have been conditioned to react emotionally to every passing news story/entertainment feature. As a result, the public has a very short memory span.

So when I hear anything in the news regarding stem cells and the possibility of religious or political opposition, I pay very little attention beyond establishing the who's and what's....

Human curiosity is what has got here. Immortality, or rather the pursuit of it, is an incredible motivator. Money as well. I can virtually guarantee blindly that research continues and probably at an unceasing rate. Corporate/Privatized ventures will not stop just because an ignorant, uneducated, middle-aged wife and mother of four believes that the wrath of an invisible God is a rational thought.......

That said, I think I ran across some research into stem cells that doesn't require a fetus. I'll post the link sometime today...when time becomes a bit more plentiful.

That said, I think I ran across some research into stem cells that doesn't require a fetus. I'll post the link sometime today...when time becomes a bit more plentiful.

Yes, there are adult stem cells, mostly in the bone marrow. These stem cells, however, are pluirpotent, not totipotent, meaning they are not as versatile and cannot be induced to form every possible cell in the body, thus not quite as useful. There are still possible applications, however.

The whole "they're doing it for the money" has two sides to it. To most I'm sure, it's not about the money really but all the nice things it can buy you before this impending crash. For others, I'm sure it's about teaching us a lesson that'll hurt, and sitting us still long enough for the whip to get cracked. No one high up enough seriously believes this is going to continue any longer, and those who do probably aren't in the club.

Think about where things are headed, not where they are. Don't blame the money. These guys are after the power and control. In the post-crash world I'm sure it'll be bad enough so that the unhealthiest drags on society fall off, while those who still have something left to contribute will be just healthy enough to get by. If you go up high enough, it stops being about the money and all the nice things it can bring you.

If we continue into embryonic stem cell research, I'm sure we'll discover many new amazing things about the body and they don't want awareness in this area to increase. No need uncovering all these secrets, they might accidentally remind the people that their bodies are highly tuned machines and as such don't need all the crap we dump into them on a day to day basis. The people might actually look around at what they've created, start to think for themselves, get mad, and demand change.

[edit on 9-1-2006 by bigpappadiaz]

I don't think I understand what point exactly you're trying to make in your post, bigpappadiaz, but let me see if I can figure it out...

To most I'm sure, it's not about the money really but all the nice things it can buy you before this impending crash.

Sorry, I was assuming that people with money would spend it...I guess from now on, I'll be sure to say people are doing greedy things for "money and nonmonetary assets such as cars, houses, etc.". Also, what is this "crash" you're talking about??

Think about where things are headed, not where they are. Don't blame the money. These guys are after the power and control. In the post-crash world I'm sure it'll be bad enough so that the unhealthiest drags on society fall off, while those who still have something left to contribute will be just healthy enough to get by. If you go up high enough, it stops being about the money and all the nice things it can bring you.

All I can say is...huh? I still don't know what this "crash" is. You said that the "unhealthiest drags on society will fall off". Ok, so that means if there is some sort of "crash", which I assume you mean maybe an economin slump or something similar, than yes, those already poor would suffer the worst. But then wouldn't the wealthiest people still be the wealthiest and most powerful? So what good would this "crash" do us?

If we continue into embryonic stem cell research, I'm sure we'll discover many new amazing things about the body and they don't want awareness in this area to increase. No need uncovering all these secrets, they might accidentally remind the people that their bodies are highly tuned machines and as such don't need all the crap we dump into them on a day to day basis. The people might actually look around at what they've created, start to think for themselves, get mad, and demand change.

Emrbyonic stem cell research has nothing at all whatsoever to do with the risks of toxins in our body. It has to do with alleviating physiological conditions that arise either as the result of genetics, as is most often the case, or disease. I don't see how you could logicall tie stem cell research to finding some conspiracy in the food or drug industry...

Ciao,
~MFP

Setting aside the ethical debate of the use of stem cells for a sec, stem cells could cure a certain number of medical problems and illnesses. The money is not in the curing of illness but in the alleviating of symptoms that keep people purchasing medicines. If a medical company develops a cure then they can sell it only a certain number of times, if they develop a medicine that alleviates symptoms but does nothing to change the initial illness they have a cash cow until all the persons with that illness dies. Which way makes more money? Which would be the better solution? I think that the cure solution would be better for society as a whole because it ensures a healthy productive population, not as in the other scenario a society of dependent addicts who cannot function without their next symptom alleviation medicine. I don't think any large pharmaceutical company will let go their cash cows, money is just too important to these companies, ethics comes a slow second.

[edit on 9-1-2006 by Sparkie the Wondersnail]

Hey - no, I am sure there was a recent article where someone had managed to get totipotenti stem cells from possibly a mouse embryo (or was it blastocyst, can't remember) without destroying the fetus. Was theoretically going to stop the ethical issue of 'destroying life' to save/improve life. Now where was the link?? Really can't remember, and don't have the time to find it.

As per the original topic, regardless of whether you agree or not with people approaching this from a Christian perspective (I don't), I appreciate that the embryos are going to remain in deep freeze, but to them, perhaps it is a better option than 'killing' them to create a stem cell line. As I said, they may be wrong, but at least they are being morally consistent.

I can sort of see the ethical minefield this is creating - didn't some Korean guy get into serious trouble for getting his assistants to 'donate' their eggs for the specific purpose of creating stem cell or cloning lines?

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Yes, there are adult stem cells, mostly in the bone marrow. These stem cells, however, are pluirpotent, not totipotent, meaning they are not as versatile and cannot be induced to form every possible cell in the body, thus not quite as useful. There are still possible applications, however.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 10/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

appreciate that the embryos are going to remain in deep freeze,

If you're talking about the embryos from fertilization treatments, they only remain in deep freeze for a certain amount of time and then are incinerated.

~MFP

Hey. But it doesn't mean that using them for research purposes before their inevitable destruction is any less wrong to people who believe that life begins at conception.

This sort of topic is what keeps medical ethicists in full-time employment! Count me out of it!

TD

Originally posted by bsl4doc
If you're talking about the embryos from fertilization treatments, they only remain in deep freeze for a certain amount of time and then are incinerated.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 10/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Hey. But it doesn't mean that using them for research purposes before their inevitable destruction is any less wrong to people who believe that life begins at conception.

I see it this way: If the embryos are going to be destroyed eventually anyway, isn't is much more noble and humane to use them to possible cure conditions that millions of people suffer from?

Ciao,
~MFP

Not arguing with you! But try telling that to the Vatican or evangelist Christians in positions of authority in the US - don't think it's going to happen there any time soon!

'Best' place for this sort of research appears to be countries that haven't been exposed to Judeo-Christian values to a massive extent over the past 2000 years.

TD

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. It would be a little hard to break the cultural boundaries on issues like that. Maybe that's why Japan and Korea (despite the false lab results from Korea) are leading the world in stem cell research.

Turns out the link I was remembering wasn't stating a replacement for embryonic stem cells......rather neural stem cells as a way to be able to replicate any central nervous system cell.....

Neural stem cells are offshoots of the better-known embryonic stem cells, which can divide without limit and which can give rise to all of the body's more than 200 cell types. Neural stem cells have undergone further specialization, compared to embryonic stem cells, and so are restricted to forming only cells of the CNS. But like embryonic stem cells, neural stem cells can self-renew by dividing indefinitely in culture before differentiating. my emphasis

www.biospace.com...

Still huge in my opinion....provided the foundation of a healthy lifestyle, one would most likely encounter mental degradation first. Indeed, IQ has been shown to drop over the course of a lifetime, beginning in early adulthood.