US poor are not so poor.

Well, you've got computer access.

Because of my job sometimes I have to work from home remotely. Job related not just for pure fun and entertainment.

But I'm smart enough to know that blaming them for my poverty never made me a dime richer. It just gave me an excuse for not even trying.

I know there are things to you that worth more than money in those things I am sure someone else would look at you as crazy, lazy or closed-minded.

Liberal? what is liberal? To me 100% write offs on SUV’s for business is liberal. Subsidies for airlines cotton farmers and corn are liberal(You can’t have it both ways. Let you drop economics then propping failing businesses.) Making the biggest governmental department (Homeland Security) since LBJ that is liberal to me when all they had to do was look at the information they already had.

If I buy flour and milk and eggs, and make a loaf of bread, and then I sell it for more than the ingredients cost, then I just created wealth. You understand that, don't you?

I do I also understand the constant hold on keeping material cost low so the milk farmers end up having to pour half their milk in the drain because they cannot sell it at the rate to keep them out the red. Money does not just appear when you change the forms of material.
The basics of capitalism are to make a profit and that profit comes from somewhere doesn’t it? So by the rule someone does have to lose.

See, there's this idea out there that business, that people who create things or jobs or wealth are the enemy. And it's just sad. The real enemy is the one who takes the money from you without giving you anything real in return. The government doesn't create wealth. It merely redistributes it. And this attitude that liberals foster, this hatred of entrepreneurs, is a desire to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs of free enterprise.

entrepreneurs are not the problem in fact they are targeted by big businesses to keep them at a smaller level. Most beinging entrepreneurs I read about don’t have the capital to start business that is why the get some type of loan or investment from circles, banks, or government grants. Governments do create wealth in fact the treasury tells you what interest rates are and what is the value of the dollar not the world bank. Businesses are not the problem they should be the vessel used to keep a community going. The idea of a corporate entity having the same rights of a person that is the main problem.

For instance how would you like if at your home a person like bill gates comes in and says we need this property to build a factory to bring jobs and money to the surrounding area. The way things are now he could bypass you if you do not want to sell and get the government to make you give up your home because of the potential for the county to get a big boost in funds. That is not right and that is a problem.

The media blames CEO's, and you buy their party line. How many CEO's are there in america? All told, maybe half a million. And what do you think their annual pay amounts to, on average? Less than $80,000 dollars a piece. And that's with the Enrons and Tycos averaged in. And every one of your congressmen makes 3 times that. Yet who do you blame for society's ills????

on the average huh.... well did you count the extra perks such as retirement, golden parachutes when changing companies, use of company finances and equipment like planes and buildings. In fact they just passed a law saying that they have to show all items that they get that puts most CEO's in the top 500 over 2 mill a piece.

Don’t like congress either they get to vote in their own raises that is crazy who will vote against it?

It takes conviction and a vice-like grip on the idea that I simply WILL NOT allow other people to control my destiny. And if money will provide me with security, then I will study money. I will master money. I will make sure that no one uses money to take advantage of me. I will not let the lack of money control my destiny.

I understand that and I also know the term banana republic. So why do you think gold has rising so high? Greenspan has already said we are spending way too much money and the long-term debt is getting bigger as well as the short term. If someone like china pulls out of our economy and calls for payment of loans then we are in trouble. If the trend of using euros instead of dollars keep going were in trouble. What is the use stock piling currency when tomorrow the World Bank can devalue your countries bonds the junk status.

My brother works for HP so I know a little about what is going on. But too few to count dealing with the vast majority that do not take them. HP deals majority with outside investor to my knowledge mostly out of Germany. Some people don’t play that do as a say but don’t comment on what do personally.

I built a lot of fences. I harvested a lot of wheat. I studied hard and borrowed money and sobered up and quit smoking pot. I taught myself the stuff they don't teach in college. I saved money, invested it, lost it, and saved up more. I own a whole library of books on financial planning and investing. I bought nearly every one of them used. And since the day I came in off the streets, I have been unemployed a total of FOUR DAYS in 19 years.

Now, not everyone who is poor is lazy. But on the other hand, not everyone who is rich is a fat greedy bastard, either.

I congratulate you on your success and I hope you have more. I also hope you and your family is happy and safe.

But I hope you understand that most here in America live like feudal states. A couple of major companies or military bases keep the majority of the economy going. Either you work for them as a turnip farmer where you don’t get much or as a blacksmith were you get a little more than a pesant but somehow you are tied to their company. And if you try to self improve and ask for what you think you are worth then they threaten to go oversea and close down. That needs to stop. Mom and pop store are going the way of the dinosaurs. And after that you have to follow the code of big businesses in the area. To me that is not prosperity and certainly not happiness. As a person effected by the Internet bubble there were a lot of people like me who invested time and money into a lifestyle that had to scramble for years to either maintain or recoup savings.

Originally posted by BlackThought
Money does not just appear when you change the forms of material.
The basics of capitalism are to make a profit and that profit comes from somewhere doesn’t it? So by the rule someone does have to lose.

You've said this several different times and I totally dispute that. If I find a gold mine, and dig up the gold and sell it. Wealth has been created. How does "someone have to lose"? That is nonsensical.

Originally posted by BlackThought
Governments do create wealth in fact the treasury tells you what interest rates are and what is the value of the dollar not the world bank.

Sorry, but this sentence is false on the face of it. The treasury doesn't set the prime interest rate; the Federal Reserve does. Further, the prime rate only applies to banks who need to borrow money from the Federal Reserve system. Although interest rates are often tracked according to the prime rate, you and I, or any American, is free to borrow or loan money at any rate they mutually agree upon.

Next, the value of the dollar is not set by any governmental agency. The exchange rate of the US dollar is determined by open outcry auction at a number of sites around the world, around the clock. The most important exchances are in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Bonn, Paris, London, New York, and Chicago. Although there are markets in Philadelphia and several regional capitals in the US. Again, you and I are legally allowed to exchange US currency for any price we deem fit, as long as no fraud is involved. The
Chicago Mercantile Exchange is one of the busiest currency markets in the world. The used to (still do?) offer free courses in how currency exchange works, and where people make profits.

Originally posted by BlackThought
For instance how would you like if at your home a person like bill gates comes in and says we need this property to build a factory to bring jobs and money to the surrounding area. The way things are now he could bypass you if you do not want to sell and get the government to make you give up your home because of the potential for the county to get a big boost in funds. That is not right and that is a problem.

It probably won't happen, especially since I live in Texas, and it is now illegal here for a state or local government to seize private property for "economic development" reasons. I'm sure Gates could try, but it would be tied up in the courts for years, until the supremes decided the tx law isn't valid.

Originally posted by BlackThought
I understand that and I also know the term banana republic. So why do you think gold has rising so high?

I get paid to speculate about that, and so I don't give market forecasts for free, here or anywhere else. Suffice it to say that the sum total of market forces have caused its exchange value to climb to intermediate highs with respect to several currencies. This valuation will change when market sentiment begins to go the other way. Personally, I plan to profit off of both sides of that market action. Do you?

If someone like china pulls out of our economy and calls for payment of loans then we are in trouble. If the trend of using euros instead of dollars keep going were in trouble. What is the use stock piling currency when tomorrow the World Bank can devalue your countries bonds the junk status.

My brother works for HP so I know a little about what is going on. But too few to count dealing with the vast majority that do not take them. HP deals majority with outside investor to my knowledge mostly out of Germany. Some people don’t play that do as a say but don’t comment on what do personally.

I built a lot of fences. I harvested a lot of wheat. I studied hard and borrowed money and sobered up and quit smoking pot. I taught myself the stuff they don't teach in college. I saved money, invested it, lost it, and saved up more. I own a whole library of books on financial planning and investing. I bought nearly every one of them used. And since the day I came in off the streets, I have been unemployed a total of FOUR DAYS in 19 years.

Now, not everyone who is poor is lazy. But on the other hand, not everyone who is rich is a fat greedy bastard, either.

I congratulate you on your success and I hope you have more. I also hope you and your family is happy and safe.

But I hope you understand that most here in America live like feudal states. A couple of major companies or military bases keep the majority of the economy going. Either you work for them as a turnip farmer where you don’t get much or as a blacksmith were you get a little more than a pesant but somehow you are tied to their company. And if you try to self improve and ask for what you think you are worth then they threaten to go oversea and close down. That needs to stop. Mom and pop store are going the way of the dinosaurs. And after that you have to follow the code of big businesses in the area. To me that is not prosperity and certainly not happiness. As a person effected by the Internet bubble there were a lot of people like me who invested time and money into a lifestyle that had to scramble for years to either maintain or recoup savings.

You kind of lost me in the end.

BTW gold that is not in the system I agree with but marketed items was what I was talking about. Your example...

[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]

Originally posted by BlackThought

The basics of capitalism are to make a profit and that profit comes from somewhere doesn’t it? So by the rule someone does have to lose.

You have posted that statement several times, and isn't the case. If I find a gold mine and dig it up and sell it, I am creating wealth. If this is untrue, then tell me whom I took money away from when I created a new commodity. This is the basis of economics. Adam Smith wrote an excellent book called "The Wealth of Nations." You probably ought to read some of that before you start spouting off about how wealth is never generated.

Originally posted by BlackThought
Governments do create wealth . . .

Wait a minute! You just said that wealth is not created, that for one person to profit, another person must lose. And yet here you say that it is the government that creates wealth. How? Does the government own factories or power plants or grocery stores or farms? Of course not. The government gets its money by taxing the people who actually do create the wealth. They take that money and then give it to government workers and welfare recipients. The government doesn't "create" anything. It just takes it from some people in order to give it to others.

Originally posted by BlackThought
. . . in fact the treasury tells you what interest rates are and what is the value of the dollar not the world bank.

This statement is false on its face. In several ways. First, the Treasury doesn't set the prime interest rate; the Federal Reserve does. And the prime interest rate only applies to member banks who seek to borrow money from the Fed. You and I are legally free to borrow and loan money from each other at any rate we see fit. The interest you are offered on a home loan is an offer only; you cannot be compelled to accept it.

Further, the "value of the dollar" (I assume you mean the exchange rate) is not set by any agency. It is determined by open outcry exchanges around the world, in many countries, by tens of thousands of buyers and sellers ever hour. Check out the website for the CME. They used to offer free online tutorials about the basics of currency exchange. Like all other market action in the USA, you and I can legally exchange currencies at any rate we see fit, as long as no fraud is involved.

Originally posted by BlackThought
For instance how would you like if at your home a person like bill gates comes in and says we need this property to build a factory to bring jobs and money to the surrounding area. The way things are now he could bypass you if you do not want to sell and get the government to make you give up your home because of the potential for the county to get a big boost in funds. That is not right and that is a problem.

Well, I live in Texas, where it is now illegal for a state or local agency to seize private property for "economic development," or to resell it later to a private individual. I'm sure Gates can afford the attorneys to contest the Texas law, but I bet it would take 3 or 4 years to work its way up to the Supreme Court, which has a strong history of not interfering with state concepts of private property. The reason that happened in New England is that the state's laws allowed for it. That must be what those Yankees want, or they'd have changed their laws by now.

Originally posted by BlackThought
. . .. In fact they just passed a law saying that they have to show all items that they get that puts most CEO's in the top 500 over 2 mill a piece.

Again, I say that the top 500 executives in America are entitled to it, if their shareholders want to pay them that much. It's a free country; and if I want to hire you and pay you jillions to work for me, who is the blessed government to say it's wrong???? How is that different from a pro-ball player? Don't you think professional athletes are capitalists, too? Or is it O.K. to make money that way, but not by marketing goods and services? If being rich is the crime, why don't you attack professional athletes? There are dozens of them that make more than most CEO's. . . .

So why do you think gold has rising so high? .

I get paid for my answers to those kinds of questions. Suffice it to say in this forum that it has risen because market sentiment has caused it to do so. Governments simply cannot control the price of any international commodity, which is what gold is; the dollar is merely another commodity, by the way.

If someone like china pulls out of our economy and calls for payment of loans then we are in trouble. .

And so is china, unless they want to be paid in heaps of freshly printed, but virtually worthless dollar bills.

What is the use stock piling currency when tomorrow the World Bank can devalue your countries bonds the junk status.

Now you're getting somewhere! Everything is a commodity, and has no inherent value. Currencies included. Even gold has an imputed, rather than an inherent value. This is due to the fact that "value" is a metaphysical concept, and not a tangible things that humans can quantify on an objective basis. However, I hasten to point out that the IMF doesn't valuate bonds.

But I hope you understand that most here in America live like feudal states. A couple of major companies or military bases keep the majority of the economy going. Either you work for them as a turnip farmer where you don’t get much or as a blacksmith were you get a little more than a pesant but somehow you are tied to their company. And if you try to self improve and ask for what you think you are worth then they threaten to go oversea and close down. That needs to stop. Mom and pop store are going the way of the dinosaurs. And after that you have to follow the code of big businesses in the area. To me that is not prosperity and certainly not happiness. As a person effected by the Internet bubble there were a lot of people like me who invested time and money into a lifestyle that had to scramble for years to either maintain or recoup savings.

I certainly know about having limited economic opportunity. I grew up in a small town (1000 people) where farming for minimum wage was the only entry level job you could find. And I wound up back there after living homeless in the big city. So you know what I did? I made sure I was the best damn worker out there, and that if there was an opening, I'd be the one who got hired. Most of my co-workers actually were lazy; failing to show up for work on time, calling in sick frequently, or goofing off (drunk) on the job. Even with no prior farm experience, I became the "senior hired hand" within two years. Then, the boss let me buy some cattle and run them with his herd. Once I got enough capital, I bought myself a car, and got the hell out of there and moved to a city where I could find some real life-opportunities.

I took what I'd learned about being a good employee, and set out to get myself some skills. Most of the work was boring, so I put myself through college to expand my mind (and hopefully get an indoor job!!!!)

I moved from job to (better) job, and was careful with my money, and educated myself about how both money and the law function in the US. Even got graduate degrees. I have been considering going to law school, but Frau Dr. and I have decided that I would probably make LESS as a lawyer than I will be making in 4 years without any additional education.

Anyway. I bet I know about as much of living in a feudal society (itinerant farm labor) as you do. And I managed to get out of that life. But only because I bettered myself as a worker (and investor, and citizen, and a man.) No political party helped me; my folks were too poor to buy me a bus ticket to visit them at Christmas. I didn't inherit anything. Sure, people helped me, but not any more than they would help anyone else. Frankly, my church helped me as much as my family or the government ever did.

To me that is not prosperity and certainly not happiness. As a person effected by the Internet bubble there were a lot of people like me who invested time and money into a lifestyle that had to scramble for years to either maintain or recoup savings.

My brother had the same IT experience. He is only now beginning to recover financially. I'm sorry for the 10's thousands who've been through that heartbreak. I too have gone heavily into debt with student loans, only to find out later that my degree would not get me a job that I could live on. I re-educated myself, and learned how to live below my means, so that the next time I wouldn't be so vulnerable.

I also figured out that while I need to pay bills, I'm never going to get rich working for someone else. Doing so means creating wealth (!) that someone else markets, and thus gets the reward for. Frau Dr. and I have both opened up several "sidelines," one of which pays as much has her "job." One of mine shows a great deal of promise in about 5 years. But who knows. It may fail. And I may have to start over again. But I am tough enough, driven enough, and smart enough to overcome what Shakespeare called the inevitable "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."

Look, I understand about the frustration of injustice. But frankly, it's sort of like griping about growing old. Your actual ability to change it will probably be minimal, even if you choose to devote your life to doing so. Instead of blaming everyone around me, I choose to make the very best of a situation that sucks. My attitude makes me stronger than most of my neighbors. And no offense, but I think your attitude is dragging you down. As they used to say on the farm, "Cain't never could." So I decide to be positive, earnest, and to apply myself for excellence. That done, I can concentrate on the things that give me life and joy: my family, my wife, my intellect, and my God.

.

Originally posted by seagull
How many of that 10% got off their butts and worked 80 hour weeks, didn't take a vacation, etc... to get their portion of that 80%. Sorry if I don't take them to task for being willing to work really, really hard. They are the ones who keep the ecomomy rolling.

It certainly depends on how you word that. True, one half of that 10 percent got there by possibly working hard and who were self-made. Then of course you got the other 5 percent that can't even qualify for hard-working. There would be no word in the dictionary to describe them. But in a way we don't know from behind the scenes either, we don't know what truly "hard work" those people fuel this lovely economy. But it can go both ways, both poor and rich alike don't want to work at all. So in the end what else could be that 10 percent? I don't know but, your explanation of a hard worker reminds me of something in alice in wonderland, only in our other earth that looks like this one but isn't were everyone is hard working, and were not here.

Hey on economics I will give it to you its all yours. I have to say still there are things I see cracks in but it’s all yours. But when does individual success make community success. You work as you say then its all good I almost had the same thing happen I move where to money is you got to build wealth. I would let you in on a little secret but it does not matter I can afford to look at things in a moral matter not just money. I noticed you did not say much about the subsidies.

The creation of money was the idea of printing more money without gaining more virtual money. My wife is an accountant she knows about the sorbains bill and she tells me about the same dollar being counted up to three times from buying bonds , loaning the bonds, and interest on the bonds (Well I’m not a finaical guy I’m IT and history)

Treasury doesn't set the prime interest rate; the Federal Reserve does.

In lowering the rate money appears!! When raising money disappears.

Sometimes people do things out of interest not financial gain if we piss China them off about Taiwan they might do it. You know live below their means just to hurt us.

Life is what truly what you make it. I enjoy life I go to sleep feeling good about my job my family, and my future. A hard life makes for good stories been places had many different jobs learned a lot about other cultures. I am a secular humanist. I belong to a different tribe you might be republican mine is something else.

Don't get me wrong, morals are definitely more important in my life than the money is. Someone said to me recently, "morals are what you do when no one is looking." I really like that definition.

As far as farm subsidies go, I never worked with cotton. The republican congress ended corn subsidies in 1993, while I was farming. It was great; if you had never taken a government farm loan, the limits on corn-growing didn't apply to you. I knew some poor people who were able to plant nothing but corn on their whole farm. The price hit $5.50 a year, and I saw a family that was struggling become millionaires because of the end of subsidies.

I've been reading up on the internet, and talking to a few friends, and it sounds like the D of A has reimposed subsidies and limits on corn. If true, then farmers are idiots for letting it be done to them.

I will tell you about helping people, and giving them a start. I help my kinfolk who are broke. They can move in for 2 weeks if they need to. But after that, they need to come up with a plan for their lives. One that doesn't involve our guestroom. Period.

They are not allowed to drag my family down merely because they can't or won't come up with a plan for changing their lives.

One of the ongoing debates with my wife is about saving up for the kids' college. She believes we should. Personally, my attitude is this: No one paid for my college. So why do I have to pay for two generations of college (mine plus my kids') while they don't have to pay for a single one????

I say, if they NEED college, then they'll find a way to borrow, scholarship-, or work it out. If it is important enough to them, they will engineer a way. I cannot do their homework for them either; since I don't have the power to get them a degree, I should not have the responsibility for paying for the experience.

We've reached a compromise. I will agree, in theory, if we can afford it, to subsidize 49% of their college, proportional to their cumulative GPA. If we have "extra" money. They will have to pay more than I, to show that it's their own life, and not mine. But I will not subsidize their party years. period. Instead, the wife and I should go on an extended honeymoon when the house is empty again.

See, getting money from someone else is like heroin. Your Dad, the government, whomever. It makes you weaker and dependent, till you can no longer compete.

Take a look at General Dynamics. They used to make all the refrigerators and dishwashers in America. But you know what happened? They started taking defense contracts, and eventually lost the ability to compete in the open market, with other manufacturers. I don't invest in defense contractors--but not because I'm a pacifist; I stay away because those companies are poorly run and cannot survive without the government nipple.

I feel the same way about welfare. Many people find they need it to survive when their jobs collapse or a spouse dies or whatever. So there's a need. But too many of them never get around to getting back on their own two feet, and the government doesn't give them an incentive.

I don't blame welfare recipients. I just wish there was some way of helping them see that OPM is heroin, and a crutch to keep you from dying--but it won't let you live until you walk away from it. Just like you give morphine to a car crash victim; you know at some point they are going to have to go through withdrawals. The problem is, our society doesn't want anyone to suffer withdrawals.

Your life is going to involve some pain. It's inevitable. But misery is optional. Every one of us chooses how to respond to the ups and downs of life.

The world isn't perfect, and never will be. But that isn't always the fault of people who have succeeded. If you could take all the money away from everyone who had more than a million, you'd increase the misery in America, but I believe the poor would still be poor, and have difficulty finding work. Taking all the money away from the rich didn't fix the French Revoluton, it didn't fix Russia or Zimbabwe or China or anywhere else it's been tried.

The fact is, I am damn good at what I do. As long as you let me do my thing, I will pay taxes, hire employees, and create even more jobs and wealth. If you set up laws that punish me for excelling in the business world, I will either give up, go underground, or leave the nation.

Any way you slice it, my competence cannot be raided; my wealth cannot be confiscated to make idle people prosperous.

If you try to grab it from me, my wealth will just disappear.

Confiscatory taxes don't help the poor OR punish the rich; they just make the "wealth of nations" disappear. That was what Adam Smith had to say.

.

Couldn't have said it better dr_strangecraft. People who look to the government for their salvation are doomed. Just look at what happened in New Orleans. You had an entire populace that couldn't look after itself and when the government failed to deliver they were in deep trouble.

I started this thread to because I was wondering if people shared my view that this country however imperfect it is, is really unique in the world in regard to the opportunities it grants its citizens. In this country IMO achieveing wealth is really a state of mind. What I mean is their is nothing to hold anyone back from bettering themselves other than of course yourself. If you can get past your own failings in this country their are no limits.

Remember the country is three meals away from anarchy. Katrina did prove that. Imagine if that failing was on a wider scale. Most if all but a small few would be in the same boat. Think about how many people count on the government to keep the people safe and fed.

Lights on, communications working, so on and so on.

[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]

To a certain extent thats true. But I think you would need a tremendous disaster so big I couldn't imagine what would cause it. Our country is so large that an earthquake or hurricane and a tsunami would have to happen virtually simultaneously and even at that large segments of the country would be only indirectly effected. I really don't see the country coming apart like that.

So if we are only three away why is it so hard to believe that "our" poor are just like the rest of the "poor" in the world?

Originally posted by BlackThought
So if we are only three away why is it so hard to believe that "our" poor are just like the rest of the "poor" in the world?

Thats not what I meant. What I meant was that it would take an absolute cataclysm to bring down the US. Not like Africa were a few months of drought and holy hell were out of food and water. It would take the wraith of god to destroy the US. But I really don't see that happening.