The witch trials

Well, here's for Bovine Feces. If you want a source, I'll provide a source. Your wish is my law, and all that bs. Alex Jones made a movie called "Inside the Bohemian Grove", where he shoots a lot of those Illuminati wops running around doing occult rituals. Now, that for me qualifies as being a warlock, together with the nature of these people. In that movie, I believe, he also mentioned a former FBI-agent that stated he had seen evidence of children having been used in similar rituals. Unfortunately it was a while since I saw the movie, so I can't recall his name.
But all you have to do is to take the time to watch it yourself, and find out...

So. Enough OT, now, shall we say, yessss?

Oh, and thanks for the sources, I'll be sure to check them out.

[edit on 6-1-2006 by David_Reale]

Wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the idea that the witch trials in Salem weren't brought about by greed. Trying to locate the name of the man, the only man, put to death in those trials.

He was a farmer but had such a knowledge of the legal workings that he was often asked for opinions in these cases. As a result his wife was accused. And him.

Knowing that if he pled guilty the state would take the land his family had worked for years he refused to plead. He was placed beneath stones (I believe) and was asked again to plead. Again he refused.

More stones were placed until the life was crushed out of him. By failing to plead, he saved his holdings for his wife and sons.

We still have witch trials in America. For the same mentality is at work in the judicial system. The tactics are a bit different, we jail a person until they plead out, paying court costs, lawyers, probation officers, and the county. Or we jail them without lawyers. In Texas they have no way to have presence in a court since Texas is UPL and require the citizen to have a lawyer, but until 2001 had no indigent defense program to provide one.

I wrote an article months ago on the witchcraft trials and the similarities in the current system in Texas. Here is an excerpt:

"Giles Corey often handled cases for others in the community of Salem, Massachusetts. Yet Mr. Corey is recorded as an illiterate farmer with a knowledge of law. He wouldn’t be heard in courtroom in Texas today, but his opinions were sought during the witchcraft trials and he was free with them until his wife became entangled. And he as well.

The day he was arraigned, he would not enter a plea. For he knew any plea would allow the court to seize the land he worked and sell it to the highest bidder.

He was then taken to a barn stretched out, timbers covering him, where he still would not plead. But the court would not be denied. The judge ordered stones placed on the timbers in a final desperate act to hear him state his innocence or guilt. The weight became so great the stones flattened his ribs, eventually crushing his body, without a word passing his lips.

Poor Giles. He was dead. But by God! He wasn’t a witch. And that is all that mattered.

We read these parts of our own history with one eye closed assuring ourselves we learned something in those dark hours. No longer are men placed in such positions. Yet when we open the other, we see the torture of those who refuse to bend. Not a physical torture, we leave our citizens to languish in jail, without attorneys, denying due process, and their rights. Many times these victims cannot make motions to have an attorney because they are not attorneys!?

Lawyers, like one in Houston says, if a person wanted justice he would pay. And people do. They pay with loss of their children, loss of freedoms, loss of character, and perhaps the loss of life. And then the lawyer says his life didn’t mean much or he would have paid. So I asked: if life wasn’t worth much, why not jump off a building, or drive off a bridge? And life suddenly had meaning and I was not welcome in his.

You see lawyers fear truth according to Gerry Spense. And courts refuse to hear these matters on the basis that it shocks its conscience. So how do we do away with the witch trial? How do we correct the destruction that occurs as a result of a lawyer pushing a man to the brink of physical violence by accosting him with challenges of what the judge is going to do, and what he is going to do?

Where it shocks the sensibilities of the courts, does it not shock the citizen more to learn he can become a victim of the justice system in a courtroom in America? It did me. And I would guess I am possibly the tip of an iceberg. People talk about these things, but not many expend the energy or have fortitude to write about them. It is after all, the path of least resistance to pretend these things do not happen in America.

But as far back as the Roman Empire law was a duel between two champions. When the citizen was brought into court the king had a champion. And to ensure a fair duel or to ensure a duel at all, the citizen must have a champion. Else there was no court. Only inquisition, shooting fish in a barrel, or beating an old dog to death with a stick.

Until August 20, 1998, it was foreign to me a men could willfully tie a human being to a rack, stretching the muscles, snapping their tendons, and breaking bones to achieve satisfaction from proving some mysterious idea known only to him. Nor did I fathom the possibility that men still existed capable of binding another to a pole and watching with laughter as they burnt alive. No, this nation was too civilized.

That day I was wrong. I became the victim. So I wonder: Do we realize there is nothing honorable when law is the exchange of lives for the king’s grants as was the inquisition, or lives for cheap land as Giles Corey learned? Why then is the exchange of lives for a little money acceptable?

I wonder: Did not the men who founded this nation come here knowing that law tainted by money proves fallible? Thus when they wrote the protection of the individual’s rights, law was established as a branch of government, always accessible to the citizen. But law has become the abused step-child offered as a consumer product. It is misused at whiff and whim to separate the citizen from the rights granted, when instead, the system is charged to protect the guarantees. It is called the judicial branch of government.

But is it not the only branch that has taken to itself the ability to place citizens at the mercy of others? And is it not the only one that financially charges the citizen to have a voice in government?"

As an aside, I have court set for February 4th on this matter.

Good luck in court Gary. That is some good info there. I agree with your analogy that the witch trials are going on today. I have a friend in jail right now who is spending a 3 year sentence. What he did is far less than what some rapists do and get out of jail in a year. BTW, he didn't rape. He was told by his lawyer that he couldn't appeal. Only to find out after about a year of service that he can actually appeal. Lawyers.

edited to add: Sorry to go off topic.

[edit on 6-1-2006 by Griff]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

There are not any Warlocks that is just made up.

Don't be so sure...................

No really there are not any warlocks, if you are truely following the Wiccan Rede you cannot be a Warlock. Witch is not gender based, there alays have been more women in the craft than men, but a male in the craft is called a witch.

I am a male Witch, I should know.

By the way if the Christians came to a town that was rumored to have a witch residing there and could find exactly who it was, they would say: "Kill them all and let God sort them out" This is the kind of thing that happens because of Christians belief that they can sin and Jesus will save them. If they went by the very simple Wiccan rede: "an harm none, do what thou wilt" and believe that Karma will pay you back three fold for you bad deeds, mankind would be much better off.

The basic Christian belief breeds aggression and war.

First off this wicca stuff really pisses me off.This is my point of view only as far as i know.The whole wiccan thing to me is the equivalent of taking all the amazing people who do the work of god and summing it all up into a term(christain) that everyone has a definition and description for pertaining to their own point of view.

As there are many shades of colour as so it is with(magic).I have my hand in many different factions..mostly self proclaimed mind you ...but to tell you the truth its only on here(ATS) that i have to devide my beliefs into sections.
Many people do not see the connection between good and evil.. This is not a battle for good and evil.There is no winning either,such things exsist to mankind only...

Too many times do i see whole eternities of information and possibility shirked off due to some five or six letter word that is used to describe it.

There are several billion different minds out here thinking.How many different thoughts on every single topic do you think they have?.Do you really think you know whats right and whats wrong.Fact and fiction.
I dont..My greatest saying is mabey my most simple one..

I know nothing......

Originally posted by toraylin

I know nothing......

Which shows a very open mind. My favorite question to ask people is "what would you say if I told you that you where closed minded?"

There is no correct answer, but if someone says "hmm. You maybe right" as oppossed to "no I am not", who do you think the closed minded person is?

Thats the great thing about knowledge and wisdom.I have seen great knowledge within individuals who could recite thousands upon thousands of terms and equations,Yet. To no avail they are intravert(sp?) and scared of the world and who they are. Wisdom i think is the ability to use your knowledge in your life to your best ability and judgement?I dunno really but anyway.

I have also seen wise people who didnt have any kind of knowledge that pertained to our scociety or race or whatever.

Openess is a term mabey used to describe something that you would think is on a certain level.To utter such a thing is to put a boundary upon yourself.To think that there is a difference between you and someone(or anything!)is to limit your view of possibilities due to judgement.

Once I started to delve deeper into the "physics"of reality thought and feelings or whatever i realized that.As far as I know there are no categories or discriptions that are real or so to say it is all trivial.Once we stop focusing on such things we might start to understand what reality is...

[edit on 6-1-2006 by toraylin]

The too often repeated lie by occultists, that, right and wrong, good and evil, don't actually exist but are only 'human constructs' proves that "do no harm" is meaningless (other than a flimsy camoflage for recruiting the gullible) when promoting, "Do what thou wilt".

I particularly get offended when some claim the "Law" they practice under is love, when by refusing to even acknowledge there is a defined difference between love, good and right, and hate, evil and wrong, means they can (and do) interpret any harm done as having an 'ultimate' 'good' and therefore freeing them of a 'triple dose' of the harm they do.

This twisted, illogical 'logic', is what witchhunters used to justify torturing people to death and is another indication that the whole thing was satanic in conception and practice.

If those inquisitionests had of applied the Biblical discription (1 Corinthians; 13) of what "Love" is, those tortureous 'trials' would never had happened.

If you can, "bear all" in the faith that God has it all in hand, then you would never resort to using torture against witches, or 'majik' to 'protect yourself' from those you perceive to be a personal enemy, or 'an enemy of the craft'.

Ahh, now I know what that topicless, barely legible, swearing, insulting u2u from Stalkingwolf was about, he was just reminding me of what occultists interpretation of what 'good', 'love' and 'light' really is. He needn't have bothered, anyone reading the replies from most occultists to Christians, can see that their form of 'love and light' is hatefull, angry, selfish, vicious, nasty, peevish, petulant and, unjustifiable, without having a twisted view, of what love and justice is.

Please folks, remember, that if in the effort to not 'judge' others, you give up your right and ability to 'discern' between good and evil and choose right over wrong, you are not being 'nice', tollerant or P.C. but assisting to promote bad as good, as The Bible warns would be an end time sign.

Suzy ryan I believe you speak true of yourself in your posts and appreciate your words.I do not understand much of this world as of yet and every point of view is good.

As to the right and wrong thing.I have always been haunted in my sleep and with every waking step I know that in my life i must defeat myself.

So much pain and suffering in my life has made me see that i must not treat anyone with disrespect.I do not think that free will has been a blessing upon us for we folly now it seems at every corner.

Then again need for survival makes all people do things and wo is to say that one does not fall for another to live.I am not saying anything like do what you want because its all necessary but to not judge evil for being evil.try to understand at all costs and try to help the situation.

And please suzy ryan dont be discouraged standing fast upon ones ground is what makes one strong.I know we have many different views but I appreciate the counter points that you help me see in my own ramblings...lol

Looking around and observing what peole do, i've stopped believing in the right or wrong thing... what really matters, now, is just if something can or cannot be done. Whether good or evil is just a mere opinion.

I'm not saying things should be like that... i'm just saying how they've been so far...

Well, I don't know about you people, but I don't really like where this world is going these days. You're right when you say that it is like the which hunts, only this time they call it "terrorists" instead. It seems it doesn't help to remember history, as we repeat it anyway.

Also, I would like to point out that if everyone stopped looking at people in other religions as "different", I think this world would be a much better place. We're all part of the same race, and the sooner we accept that we have more things in common than in difference, the sooner we can have true peace in this world.

Ooops, I think I'm becoming an idealist.

The problem, IMHO, is deep inside our humanity, inside our minds.

Look at the kids, how they usually gather together to mock or maybe beat the weak one.

We're "sentient" animals, after all, and the survival of the fittest is rule number 1 in nature. And we can't deny our own nature. The weak child? He's weak, so he isn't (yet) the fittest, so stronger guys band together and "hunt" him. Sometimes such hunts allow the weak child to grow strong, some other child succumbs.

And this happends in every other aspect of life. From polithics, to religion, to families, to relations.

Latins used to say "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum -> If You Want Peace, Be Ready For War".

The funny thing is that the only period of relative peace i can think of was during the Cold War: the world split in two big "blocks", each one ready for war against the other, but no one wanting to be the first attacker. Peace was very unstable, but still no one dared to push the "red button".

Nowadays, everyone is talking about peace, but "red buttons" are pushed with much more ease.

It shouldn't be like that. It makes me feel sick. In fact, I'm going to....urrrp....
Haha, sorry, I just had to.

No, seriously, and I don't mean no offence to you, Sparhawk, but I doubt the Vietnamese, Koreans, Angolans, Congolese, Zimbabwians, and every other small third world country that was involved in these "small" so-called civil wars of the Cold War would say that it was relatively peaceful. It just shows how flawed that motto, "If you want peace, prepare for war", really is.

I just realized we are big time off topic right now. Ooops.

[edit on 7-1-2006 by David_Reale]

You know Sparhawk I must say as far as the weak child goes.I was not weak but easy to target.The new kid scenario..Now I have rarely been bested when it came to fighting for they would ostricise me and make fun of how i was different.

I had to resort to fighting to get them to stop.This eventualy gave me a sick feeling of how wrong it all was.I did nothing really to provoke them to make me the loner but i thank them in the long run for now i dont care if someone doesnt like me for who i am.

That is really a loss to their developement as far as i have been told.Now I try to be as nice and understanding as possible but some people really are too close minded to get anywhere with.

I would like to say that if I had been more accepted that I probably wouldnt be as far anlong the rope as i am now.

Sparhawk, you've pointed out a major problem Christians have with occult philosophies, the, "but it's only natural", excuse for everything.

The Bible teaches that 'natural' man is at odds with God's Spirit, but that we are different from other living creatures in that we can choose 'better' than 'natural' responses to life.

Yep, it's only 'natural' that man wants an eye for an eye, and that would 'naturally' lead to the whole world being blind.

It's unnatural, it is indeed 'supernatural', to forgive the unforgivable and bear your own suffering without taking it out on others, yet this is the way of peace.

God tells us to DO justice for the weak, fatherless, old etc., all those who have nothing to offer in return. This goes against the philosophies of all who make 'nature' 'god' (survival of the fittest is natural, so therefore 'good' and 'right') yet if it wasn't for all those Christians who go beyond the 'natural' and risk their lives for others about to lose theirs, well just think how much uglier the world would be.

Many who are attracted to 'witchcraft', 'naturally' believe they only want to do good, yet in this 'natural' world, where everything and everyone is dying, they can only, ultimately, offer death, which is why God warns against that path.

God offers a new, perfect, eternal life to those who 'endure' to the end. Taking what you naturally can, doing what you naturally want etc., so as to avoid having to endure as much as possible, in this short, mortal, difficult life is spiritually 'childish'.

No one can, "majik or science away" death in this dying universe, that takes an unnatural, Holy, miracle, free to all who have faith in taking their Holy Father's advice.

David_Reale, you're right, i forgot to think of these countries, i apologyze for my mistake.

Toraylin, yes it was really a pity for them and their developement. When child, i've almost always been an "outsider" too, both because of ostracism, and after some time because of my own choice. But i think, as you've pointed out, that in the long term it has also helped me a lot, because (considering just the practical advantages) if it hadn't been so, probably now i wouldn't be as indipendent as i am now.

Suzy i mean no offense to you, bu i think you're thinking in a "two color" way, without considering the many gradients that can be found between the black and the white. Reading between the lines, i think you're saying something like "Christians are good, pagans are evil".
Unluckly, i must totally disagree with you: not every Christian is good, and not every pagan is evil. I know many Christians who aren't exactly as kind and clean as they should be; on the other hand, i know some pagans too, and i have to say they are excellent people (i'm pagan too, and i don't think i'm a bad guy... usually ).

About the "natural" thing, i'm not saying it's necessarily right or wrong, i'm just saying it is, at the moment, unavoidable. Plain and simple.

Human kind hasn't yet evolved enough to live in a "better" way: human kind, right now, has taken all the violent aspects of nature, and deranged them in huge aberrations. Some examples? An animal kills only for self defence or to feed itself; humans kill for pleasure, fun, sadism, jealousy, wrath, money, power and i could go on and on... animals are capable of "self ruling" according to the environment in which they are, while humans damage and destroy the natural balance of their environment.

As far as i see it, we are animals too, we have the same instincts (survival of the fittest is a rule of life, that affects every lifeform: for instance, our medical knowledge compensates our minor resistance to wounds, atmospherical agents and so on, allowing us to be fit and survive; without it, death rate would be much higher, and there wouldn't be as many grown people as there are now), and are bound to the same rules as the other animals.

I'm not saying this to justify, also because we can always choose whether to follow instinct or not; i'm saying this to understand. If someone understands the basis of a problem, then a possible solution might come up. And when speaking of humans, IMHO the matter is far more complex than a simple good vs. evil. There are many more elements.

Just consider one last thing: magick can heal or harm. Choice is up to us.

And even if you aren't aware of it, you're a magick user, too, and use it almost every day

I think that there were a "lot of things" going on behind the scenes at the witch trials, from tainted bread to mysogyny to church/state politics, etc.

Then there is the modernist propaganda spread over the historical facts.

For instance, in England, the "Inquisition" was demonized as bloodthirsty torturers that were somehow worse than the rest. As a matter of fact, the church inquisition didn't have authority to put anyone to death. The state government did that, not the church. And the "Spanish Inquisition" was in fact administered by the crown, hence the name. The church was not officially involved. (though of course, with a whole city in uproar over witches, naturally everyone, including priests would become involved in a human way.)

In British law, until quite late, people (women) were HANGED and their corpses burnt after death, to preclude other witches using their body parts, or the witch cursing her own body to spread the plague as she died. Such were the fears of the time.

The reason they were hanged was that witches were usually found guilty of ATTEMPTED MURDER. Were they all innocent? Surely, even if their spells didn't work, the witches thought they would.

Take the analogy of a guy robbing a liquor store with a gun that he THINKS is loaded, but which really isn't. If he points it at the clerk and pulls the trigger, he is still attempting murder, even if the plot fails.

So what about the witches who tried to kill various kings, such as James I? Just because the spell couldn't work, doesn't clear them of attempted murder . . . .

Anyway, an interesting thread. Like other topics on ATS, the real problem is when each of us decides that WE MUST be right, and there is no kernel of truth in anyone else's view.

.

Don't forget the other means of telling if a person was a witch, throw them off a cliff! If they are a witch they will fly away, if not they will die.

Also, if witches were so powerful how the heck could a bunch of weak minded idiots kill them? How could people who couldn't count to 1 outsmart the child of Satan? Or is this a question that would get you, your family, and everyone in the same village as you killed for being witches?