Radical space propulsion: warp drive for real?

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posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 02:05 AM
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An odd story. The New Scientist is fairly well respected, so I would guess that somebody is at least looking into it. What is the chance that one discarded theory from the 1950's---well string theory and even quarks---and undoubtably far outside the mainstream of physics is correct?

In truth, the chance is extremely low. But the import is sufficiently high to look.

I looked on the New Scientist web site: the hyperdrive story is available only to paid subscribers.



news.scotsman.com...

Welcome to Mars express: journey time three hours
IAN JOHNSTON SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT

AN EXTRAORDINARY "hyperspace" engine that could make interstellar space travel a reality by flying into other dimensions is being investigated by the United States government.

The hypothetical device, which has been outlined in principle but is based on a controversial theory about the fabric of the universe, could potentially allow a spacecraft to travel to Mars in three hours and journey to a star 11 light years away in just 80 days, according to a report in today's New Scientist magazine.

The theoretical engine works by creating an intense magnetic field that, according to ideas first developed by the late scientist Burkhard Heim in the 1950s, would produce a gravitational field and result in thrust for a spacecraft.

Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached. Switching off the magnetic field would result in the engine reappearing in our current dimension.


Mod Edit: Methods of ''Quoting'' – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 17/4/2006 by Umbrax]




posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 02:23 AM
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Here is the paper in question

www.uibk.ac.at...

One other thing, when you see an article that references the actual peer-reviewed one by its exact name, use scholar.google.com... you can usually find a free copy somewhere on that search engine like I have for this theory.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 07:31 AM
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It's like a dream come true...

Is it too good to be true? I have thought about magnetic drives a lot, and I don't quite see how using a magnetic field would produce gravitational influences. However, this sounds like it COULD be the result of the Philidelphia Project! That used magnetic fields as well.

Indeed more research is needed, and I for one would give up my life for its completion.

... but five years? It's like saying to cavemen "Here, have an internal combustion engine!". How in the universe does this exactly work? What suddenly made it available? Is it safe for human travel?

I guess, more importantly, how fast could it go? It says here to the closest star in 80 days. Is there a way for it to go faster? Could we be on the doorstep of the time when mankind reaches for the stars and declares itself amongst the inhabitants of the universe?

If this indeed comes to pass my bretheren, then we must be ready to take a step through the door of infinity.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 09:01 AM
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A similiar paper to what I posted above(have not found a free version yet) was named as one of the best 2005 papers by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

www.aiaa.org...

It seems people are taking these guys seriously(unlike Podkletnov). Gravitophoton is still a mouthfull though.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:06 AM
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The world is going to blow up in 2012, and my only consolation was that if I died, all those sum-bitch secret societies and government agents would die with me. Now, instead, they have a way out, and probably a place to go. They'll just go to the Grey's home world and farm.

However, if none of that stuff is true, this could bring about a whole new world. A world similar to star treck, but the uniforms will be cooler.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
The world is going to blow up in 2012, and my only consolation was that if I died, all those sum-bitch secret societies and government agents would die with me. Now, instead, they have a way out, and probably a place to go. They'll just go to the Grey's home world and farm.

However, if none of that stuff is true, this could bring about a whole new world. A world similar to star treck, but the uniforms will be cooler.



How do you know the world is gonna blow in 2012? What if that is the date that they successfully test this engine thus changing our world forever. Wouldn't it be ironic that this earth shattering event is what the Mayans were really talking about? Okay now back to reality


Also wouldn't Causality be violated if this works? Could bring in the specter of Time travel.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:10 AM
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Wow, all I can say is I’m truly amazed by this. Although Heim theory has been around for a long time I’m glad to see this technology might come to fruition. Very good find!



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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I don't get Gravitophoton
gravity bends light
photon is light
is it an photon which can bend itself??



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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but still within 5 years a protoype can be finished they claim well that buts us in 2011 /2012 when started this year.
it might take longer I hope less time.

I am hoping so hard that this is finally our propulsion for space exploration and that 50 years after the roswel incident:p



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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This is an interesting theory, and the first time I've heard of Heim's theory. Reading about it, it appears science isn't the reason for his theory being so controversial; character is. All the criticism of Heim seems based on three factors.

1. He believed in spirituality and his later works delved into alternate paranormal realities. This criticism is based on his non-technical writings, though. His technical writings, such as a paper on quantum field theory, did not display this at all.

2. He did not use conventional terms and annotations, and his theory was only published in German, not English. On top of that, he apparently chose a dubious source to be published in, rather than a more main stream and widely accepted publication. Due to all these factors, his theory is rather difficult to understand. The theory itself is very complex, so the criticism is that, because of those factors, the theory could have major flaws that are hard to detect. Apparently this means it shouldn't be tested.

3. He worked alone and was not associated with a University.

I hope this theory gets at least some scientific scrutiny, as those reasons (outlined in more detail on Wikipedia) seem more political than scientific. It deserves to at least be tested, and according to that article in the Scotsman, it sounds like it's about to be. It'll be really amazing if it does hold up and the USAF starts doing tests on propulsion systems.

mbkennel, I didn't understand:


What is the chance that one discarded theory from the 1950's---well string theory and even quarks---and undoubtedly far outside the mainstream of physics is correct?





posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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freakin sweet!
Seems kinda usless though without the tech to teraform planets...
I wonder how many ships we already have built that are waiting for this tech to be installed in them.
Daedalus...
www.stargate-tech.net...



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached.


Present string theory suggests that there are more than 1 vacuum. Certain effects can occur which destabilize the vacuum (of course, all theoretical and based on math that's far beyond my 3 years of advanced calculus at a top-rated U.S. engineering school). However, given that there is at least a reasonable possibility that there is more than one type of vacuum, wouldn't it also be reasonable to suggest that each vacuum has its own physical properties?

The speed of light is different in different medium. We assume that the speed of light cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. If Einstein was right, then we cannot travel faster than about 186,000 miles per second in the vacuum that exists according to current understanding.

As I wrote in another thread...


Perhaps some form of a destabilized vacuum has a refractive index (an imaginary refractive index?) that permits for a speed of light faster than that in a vacuum).



Maybe not very artfully worded, but isn't the technology discussed in the New Scientist article consistent with this theory? The magnetic field may destabilize the vacuum into a state where the refractive index of the vacuum changes, thereby changing the speed of light in the vacuum. Perhaps we could control the nature of the vacuum and create one with an R.I. wherein light travels at many multiples of the speed at which it travels in an unaltered vacuum. Under such circumstances, we would not need a particularly large amount of energy to exceed the speed at which light travels in an unaltered vacuum, when the craft is enveloped in a field that alters the properties of the vacuum within the field.

Centrist



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
Also wouldn't Causality be violated if this works? Could bring in the specter of Time travel.


Not necessarily
Causality being cause and effect is but a preception.
From one angle thing-A can look like it caused thing-B to happen
From an opposite angle thing-B happened then thing-A caused it

Thats not the best explination but long story short, Causality is relative to the location of the outside observer



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Thanks Centrist, as always your post are very informative. This is very exciting news indeed. This will certainly shut up the UFO debunkers that claim we are not being visited because they cannot get here from there!
Apparently if all goes well, in a few years we will be getting there from here!



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Don't worry Sardion, Causality will not be affected or changed. In effect you aren't really going faster than light - just travelling through space where the speed of light is faster. By the same token, time travel is not openned up.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 12:02 PM
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Ya I don't know why I thought of that. Brainfart I guess :p

This work seems eerily similiar to Evgeni Podkletnovs work on "Gravity Shielding" but instead of a Superconducting Torus shaped drive he used a spinning superconducting disk to achieve a similiar effect though his work was practicle not theoretical and was dismissed rather quickly.

Next step, Inertia Dampening
Okay I'm getting ahead of myself but can you blame me?


[edit on 5-1-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 12:28 PM
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While it is true that current string theory suggests there are 11 dimensions, 10 spatial and 1 temporal, and they would have different physical properties, they would also be within the same physical universe and govern us today, though we don't notice them. Dr. Richard Wolfson has a great analogy. If you were to look at an ant standing on a string from a distance, it would appear that ant can only move in two directions, back and forth. Yet, magnify it, and you can see the ant could also walk around the string, not just back and forth. The other 7 spatial dimensions theorized are on an extremely small scale, and we perceive them as we do the rope in that example. While looking from a distance as the ant went around the rope, it would appear the ant would shrink in its height, and then suddenly start to reappear on the other side of an apparent border. The ant is still governed by the same laws of physics that apply to us, but it can travel in a dimension we can't perceive.

However, the problem with theorizing a spacecraft can enter these spatial dimensions defined by string theory is that the dimensions are extremely small. We're not talking about anything as large as an angstrom unit, but the plank length. So somehow, the magnetic field would have to condense an engine, spacecraft, and travelers down to a size smaller than an electron in order to take advantage of other spatial dimensions as defined by string theory.

String theory, though, is exactly that. It could be that there are macro spatial dimensions we can't perceive, I dunno. Or maybe I'm just misperceiving what you're saying Centrist.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 12:28 PM
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Man this really sucks, well not really but I came to the same understanding just last week. In reference to the whole gravity discussion about early civilizations etc and their possible understanding of things like the Baghdad battery etc. And the possibilty that ancient civilizations had a better understanding of Magnetics which IMO is a higher order of electricity and that if you know how a north and south magnet can work to "defy" gravity. (I know it was the post about the moon rocks being magnetic and then apparently non magnetic on earth, when reallity it is the difference between the gravitional pull on the two bodies, Moon being 1/6th of earth therefore higher magentic "strength" when compared on earth)

So anyways that being said if an earthly magnet say has the strength of 1lb over 1 foot on earth then in space deviod of the 14lbs per sq inch "static pull" against the magnetic attraction you would that much more "magnetic strength" in space. So lets say in space you have a giant north magnet and you point it at a big SOUTH magnetic body, maybe a certain region on earth. Then you could use the repelling power of the magnet to "push" you away from earth.

without a direct opposite pole to repel off from, the magnet still produces "magnetic energy waves ? particles ? streams ?" that radiate out from the magnet. If the magnet is a single pole, being only energized with one state. Then the "magnetic energy" leaves the magnet and seeks out an opposite pole "body". Similar in concept to an ION drive.

Couple this with some type of ION propulsion as well and now instead of using the "magnetic ouput" as thrust you use it for spatial displation in front of the craft as the energized "magnetic particles" create a barrier in front or around the craft which accelerates any free space particles that might be floating in the void around the craft, leaving the craft in more of a vaccum than what already exists in space.

Think of it as a giant "tractor beam" from star wars, just point at a big "magnetic body" of opposite polarity and let the magnetic attraction pull you there. The magnetic force being unabatted by terrestrial gravitional pull.

Interesting theory indeed



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 02:04 PM
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How do we know theres even any other dimensions? plus, if there is, how do we know light travels faster? what if it travels slower, what if theres no light at all?

Seems like just nasa jumping the shark and trying to get more funding for their mars rovers to me. :T



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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This is all really exciting stuff, which knows; in 10-15years Heim's name might be one of the most famous in our history. But it is a big "might".





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