Radical space propulsion: warp drive for real?, page 1


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Topic started on 5-1-2006 @ 02:05 AM by mbkennel
An odd story. The New Scientist is fairly well respected, so I would guess that somebody is at least looking into it. What is the chance that one discarded theory from the 1950's---well string theory and even quarks---and undoubtably far outside the mainstream of physics is correct?

In truth, the chance is extremely low. But the import is sufficiently high to look.

I looked on the New Scientist web site: the hyperdrive story is available only to paid subscribers.


news.scotsman.com...

Welcome to Mars express: journey time three hours
IAN JOHNSTON SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT

AN EXTRAORDINARY "hyperspace" engine that could make interstellar space travel a reality by flying into other dimensions is being investigated by the United States government.

The hypothetical device, which has been outlined in principle but is based on a controversial theory about the fabric of the universe, could potentially allow a spacecraft to travel to Mars in three hours and journey to a star 11 light years away in just 80 days, according to a report in today's New Scientist magazine.

The theoretical engine works by creating an intense magnetic field that, according to ideas first developed by the late scientist Burkhard Heim in the 1950s, would produce a gravitational field and result in thrust for a spacecraft.

Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached. Switching off the magnetic field would result in the engine reappearing in our current dimension.


Mod Edit: Methods of ''Quoting'' – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 17/4/2006 by Umbrax]


reply posted on 5-1-2006 @ 02:23 AM by sardion2000
Here is the paper in question

www.uibk.ac.at...

One other thing, when you see an article that references the actual peer-reviewed one by its exact name, use scholar.google.com... you can usually find a free copy somewhere on that search engine like I have for this theory.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by sardion2000]


reply posted on 5-1-2006 @ 11:20 AM by junglejake
This is an interesting theory, and the first time I've heard of Heim's theory. Reading about it, it appears science isn't the reason for his theory being so controversial; character is. All the criticism of Heim seems based on three factors.

1. He believed in spirituality and his later works delved into alternate paranormal realities. This criticism is based on his non-technical writings, though. His technical writings, such as a paper on quantum field theory, did not display this at all.

2. He did not use conventional terms and annotations, and his theory was only published in German, not English. On top of that, he apparently chose a dubious source to be published in, rather than a more main stream and widely accepted publication. Due to all these factors, his theory is rather difficult to understand. The theory itself is very complex, so the criticism is that, because of those factors, the theory could have major flaws that are hard to detect. Apparently this means it shouldn't be tested.

3. He worked alone and was not associated with a University.

I hope this theory gets at least some scientific scrutiny, as those reasons (outlined in more detail on
Wikipedia) seem more political than scientific. It deserves to at least be tested, and according to that article in the Scotsman, it sounds like it's about to be. It'll be really amazing if it does hold up and the USAF starts doing tests on propulsion systems.

mbkennel, I didn't understand:

What is the chance that one discarded theory from the 1950's---well string theory and even quarks---and undoubtedly far outside the mainstream of physics is correct?





reply posted on 5-1-2006 @ 11:27 AM by Centrist

Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached.


Present string theory suggests that there are more than 1 vacuum. Certain effects can occur which destabilize the vacuum (of course, all theoretical and based on math that's far beyond my 3 years of advanced calculus at a top-rated U.S. engineering school). However, given that there is at least a reasonable possibility that there is more than one type of vacuum, wouldn't it also be reasonable to suggest that each vacuum has its own physical properties?

The speed of light is different in different medium. We assume that the speed of light cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. If Einstein was right, then we cannot travel faster than about 186,000 miles per second in the vacuum that exists according to current understanding.

As I wrote in
another thread...

Perhaps some form of a destabilized vacuum has a refractive index (an imaginary refractive index?) that permits for a speed of light faster than that in a vacuum).



Maybe not very artfully worded, but isn't the technology discussed in the New Scientist article consistent with this theory? The magnetic field may destabilize the vacuum into a state where the refractive index of the vacuum changes, thereby changing the speed of light in the vacuum. Perhaps we could control the nature of the vacuum and create one with an R.I. wherein light travels at many multiples of the speed at which it travels in an unaltered vacuum. Under such circumstances, we would not need a particularly large amount of energy to exceed the speed at which light travels in an unaltered vacuum, when the craft is enveloped in a field that alters the properties of the vacuum within the field.

Centrist



reply posted on 5-1-2006 @ 12:28 PM by junglejake
While it is true that current string theory suggests there are 11 dimensions, 10 spatial and 1 temporal, and they would have different physical properties, they would also be within the same physical universe and govern us today, though we don't notice them. Dr. Richard Wolfson has a great analogy. If you were to look at an ant standing on a string from a distance, it would appear that ant can only move in two directions, back and forth. Yet, magnify it, and you can see the ant could also walk around the string, not just back and forth. The other 7 spatial dimensions theorized are on an extremely small scale, and we perceive them as we do the rope in that example. While looking from a distance as the ant went around the rope, it would appear the ant would shrink in its height, and then suddenly start to reappear on the other side of an apparent border. The ant is still governed by the same laws of physics that apply to us, but it can travel in a dimension we can't perceive.

However, the problem with theorizing a spacecraft can enter these spatial dimensions defined by string theory is that the dimensions are extremely small. We're not talking about anything as large as an angstrom unit, but the plank length. So somehow, the magnetic field would have to condense an engine, spacecraft, and travelers down to a size smaller than an electron in order to take advantage of other spatial dimensions as defined by string theory.

String theory, though, is exactly that. It could be that there are macro spatial dimensions we can't perceive, I dunno. Or maybe I'm just misperceiving what you're saying Centrist.


reply posted on 5-1-2006 @ 12:28 PM by robertfenix
Man this really sucks, well not really but I came to the same understanding just last week. In reference to the whole gravity discussion about early civilizations etc and their possible understanding of things like the Baghdad battery etc. And the possibilty that ancient civilizations had a better understanding of Magnetics which IMO is a higher order of electricity and that if you know how a north and south magnet can work to "defy" gravity. (I know it was the post about the moon rocks being magnetic and then apparently non magnetic on earth, when reallity it is the difference between the gravitional pull on the two bodies, Moon being 1/6th of earth therefore higher magentic "strength" when compared on earth)

So anyways that being said if an earthly magnet say has the strength of 1lb over 1 foot on earth then in space deviod of the 14lbs per sq inch "static pull" against the magnetic attraction you would that much more "magnetic strength" in space. So lets say in space you have a giant north magnet and you point it at a big SOUTH magnetic body, maybe a certain region on earth. Then you could use the repelling power of the magnet to "push" you away from earth.

without a direct opposite pole to repel off from, the magnet still produces "magnetic energy waves ? particles ? streams ?" that radiate out from the magnet. If the magnet is a single pole, being only energized with one state. Then the "magnetic energy" leaves the magnet and seeks out an opposite pole "body". Similar in concept to an ION drive.

Couple this with some type of ION propulsion as well and now instead of using the "magnetic ouput" as thrust you use it for spatial displation in front of the craft as the energized "magnetic particles" create a barrier in front or around the craft which accelerates any free space particles that might be floating in the void around the craft, leaving the craft in more of a vaccum than what already exists in space.

Think of it as a giant "tractor beam" from star wars, just point at a big "magnetic body" of opposite polarity and let the magnetic attraction pull you there. The magnetic force being unabatted by terrestrial gravitional pull.

Interesting theory indeed
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