When Humans Think They are More Powerful than God

This is do to an atheistic view that the Universe was created by a roulette table. More directly, it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

Originally posted by GreatTech
This is do to an atheistic view that the Universe was created by a roulette table.

It created itself.. I suggest you look up 'fractel theory' if you think atheists believe the universe was created randomly.

More directly, it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

Why do you assume atheists do not repent when they have wronged someone? Why do you assume that we have had sinful lives? As for disordered mind, most atheists become so because their minds require order and logic.. mine certainly does. I must say.. your post isn't very logical. Why would I aspire to be more powerful than something I do not believe exists?

Why do Atheist ever have a disordered mind, because athiest beleifs differ from yours? GreatTech, have you ever once opened your mind to the possibility of that there is no god.

Now I know that at the phrase "there is no god" you immediately yell "NO! of course not!" but humor me.

Have you ever just opened your mind for a second and thought for a while.

Originally posted by GreatTech
When Humans Think They are More Powerful than God

This is do to an atheistic view that the Universe was created by a roulette table. More directly, it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

blah blah blah sin blah blah blood sacrifice blah blah faith blah blah you're going to hell you scum because you reject my nonsensical drivel blah blah I'm calling the cops...

Yet Another Lobotomized Theist Bashing Atheists (YALTBA).

It's a shame colorful language is prohibited on this site. It really is appropriate in this case.

Originally posted by GreatTech
This is do to an atheistic view that the Universe was created by a roulette table. More directly, it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

Yea I hope its temporary too.

Congratulations, you just acquired top rank in my "reality challenged bigot" list.

Humans ARE more powerful than "god".

Who creates life? Who maintains the planet? Who heals the sick? Humans do all of this. What does god do? Nothing. Why? Because hes either unable to or does not exist. The simple fact is that humans run the show.

A few things:

Why do you assume atheists do not repent when they have wronged someone? Why do you assume that we have had sinful lives? As for disordered mind, most atheists become so because their minds require order and logic.. mine certainly does. I must say.. your post isn't very logical. Why would I aspire to be more powerful than something I do not believe exists?

It's not a matter of saying "atheists have sinful lives". The christian point of view would say, "every human on the planet is sinful". Christians don't believe themselves to be "better" than anyone else.. they just believe that because they have asked Jesus for forgiveness, they are forgiven and saved.

Originally posted by raingirl
The christian point of view would say, "every human on the planet is sinful".

Indeed they do. It's an unhealthy outlook on life IMO, but one well suited to creating dependency on religion.

Indeed they do. It's an unhealthy outlook on life IMO, but one well suited to creating dependency on religion.

So, why do you see it as an unhealthy outlook on life?

Also, i can see your point that, if Christianity is, as you perhaps think it is, a religion that was constructed by humans, rather than true, and dependant on a real God... such a belief would indeed make Christians dependant on such a God. But to me, it rings certain truths with what i see in my life, and yes, in the lives of those that i see around me.

So, a question: do you know anyone that you would consider completely perfect, and without sin? And what would your definition of sin be? Because everyone i know has felt guilty about something... to me it indicates - not proves, but suggests that we all feel that we have done something "wrong" before.

Originally posted by raingirl

So, a question: do you know anyone that you would consider completely perfect, and without sin? And what would your definition of sin be? Because everyone i know has felt guilty about something... to me it indicates - not proves, but suggests that we all feel that we have done something "wrong" before.

To me, the idea of sin is just like a favorite brand of beverage. It varies. It shouldnt be objective. But if imposed it just creates more misery than usual.

As for your "guilt" theory. I have commited many mistakes and had my share of wrong doings...but guilt is something that i'm glad to say I dont have an ounce of. I forgive myself. If you dont forgive your mistakes no one else will. Since I have absolutely no guilt of anything, does that make me a perfect sinless person. I'd consider so.

This conversation is moot because its going to lead directly back to the "Does God exist" topic, which has no good answer. Either side trying to claim they can get around that will be flammed to no end.

Originally posted by Raideur
This conversation is moot because its going to lead directly back to the "Does God exist" topic, which has no good answer. Either side trying to claim they can get around that will be flammed to no end.

As usual, wise words from a wise man.

To me, the idea of sin is just like a favorite brand of beverage. It varies. It shouldnt be objective.

But as you said, that is what makes sense... "to [you]". The *idea* of sin, you're right, does vary. One person may think a particular thing is wrong while another person thinks it's perfectly ok. So, yes, what we think is sinful/wrong does varie from person to person.

However, that still doesn't answer the question, "why does that mean it shouldn't be objective?" If we could absolutely determine that there was no God, I would perhaps agree with you: why should one person's idea of sin be more 'correct' than another person's? But, suppose for one monent that there is a God, who does have an absolute idea of what is right and wrong. If that is true, then there is an absolute standard of what is sin and what is not sin - whether we would choose to believe it, or agree or not.

So what i find is that your statement does appear logical to me - if there is no God, then it would make sense that there should be no absolute standard of what "sin" is. I simply disagree with the initial assumption on which your logic is based.

But if imposed it just creates more misery than usual.

May i ask, what do you base that statement upon? Is it your own experience, perhaps that you have been judged by another person who told you something u did was sinful? Because if that's the case, then, yeah, i would probably agree with you - if all people are equal, no one should have the right to impose their standards on another.

On the other hand... from my own experience - I take the standard of what is sinful or not, imposed on me by God. And i can tell you that in living in that way, I'm not in misery. I *want* to live for God, and do what it is that He wants me to do. And even if there are things that I've done/not done, because i think it's right/wrong, it hasn't led to misery, and part of that is because I also believe that doing the "right" thing is what's good for us on the long term.

As for your "guilt" theory. I have commited many mistakes and had my share of wrong doings...but guilt is something that i'm glad to say I dont have an ounce of.

Actually, you seem to be supporting, not contradicting my "guilt" theory. Christian or not, i don't think it's healthy to go through life regretting the past and living in guilt; that leads you no where. But, you have agreed with me on one point: you admit that you have made mistakes and have done wrong things. That, quite simply, was my point (maybe the guilt illustration was unnecessary).

I forgive myself. If you dont forgive your mistakes no one else will. Since I have absolutely no guilt of anything, does that make me a perfect sinless person. I'd consider so.

I think it's good you're moving on... from my point of view, though... I'd ask you who you've sinned against. If you've sinned against yourself, and yourself only, sure thing you can forgive yourself. BUT if in sinning, we are offending a righteous God... understanding that perhaps you would not believe in such a God... then the only person who can forgive you is God.

So if the God i believe in, ie, the Christian God is real, and out there, it doesn't matter whether you have no guilt of anything. It doesn't matter if you consider yourself perfect and sinless: you can be convinced yet still incorrect.

Originally posted by raingirl
It's not a matter of saying "atheists have sinful lives". The christian point of view would say, "every human on the planet is sinful". Christians don't believe themselves to be "better" than anyone else.. they just believe that because they have asked Jesus for forgiveness, they are forgiven and saved.

it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

It's nice that you are there to justify the motives of now disapeared poster, but in this case he clearly did think he was 'better' than others as he elevated himself to a point where he could not only judge our morality but our sanity as well. Of course there are many christans who do in fact associate being 'saved' as being morally superior [better] than the 'unsaved'.. ironically this leads to judging others which is in itself sinful as it's meant to be their gods job not their own.

Originally posted by raingirl
So, why do you see it as an unhealthy outlook on life?

Firstly, because it's false. Secondly, because it leads to a lack of self confidence, depression, repression, and a cheapening of the value of humanity.

Originally posted by raingirl
So, a question: do you know anyone that you would consider completely perfect, and without sin?

"Sin" is a theological term. From my perspective we are all without sin.

"Perfection" is a idealized term. It is unobtainable by definition. So, no-one is perfect by definition, nor does it make sense to try to be perfect.

Good enough is best.

Originally posted by raingirl
Because everyone i know has felt guilty about something... to me it indicates - not proves, but suggests that we all feel that we have done something "wrong" before.

I imagine most of us have done things we regret. Regret is one form of nature's punishment. We don't need the concept of "sin" causing regret when it isn't warranted.

Originally posted by GreatTech
This is do to an atheistic view that the Universe was created by a roulette table. More directly, it is due to a lack of repentance for prior sins that have created a temporarily (I hope only temporary) disordered mind.

let's see, i don't believe the universe was created by god, i'm not an atheist, and the only disorder in my mind is ADHD.

i also think that a device used for gambling created the universe.

how are you sure the atheists and non-christians are the ones with mental disorders?

Having typed a response to Isis' post.... i'm somewhat reluctant to post again until s/he has responded, since experience has taught me that too many posts too often equates to a supposed license to ignore you. Still...

It's nice that you are there to justify the motives of now disapeared poster, but in this case he clearly did think he was 'better' than others as he elevated himself to a point where he could not only judge our morality but our sanity as well. Of course there are many christans who do in fact associate being 'saved' as being morally superior [better] than the 'unsaved'.. ironically this leads to judging others which is in itself sinful as it's meant to be their gods job not their own.

Well, now i look at the first poster's comments again, perhaps you are right - and in any case it's not my business to justify other ppl's comments. What i meant to do was not that, but to put forward what the Christian belief is. Naturally, Christians will stray from this. Yes, Christians will continue to judge others and see others as morally superior... sad but true. To me it says a whole lot more about those christians than it does about christianity. Perhaps this poster was a new christian - once you've been christian for a while, you realise that while being Christian can help you to eliminate sin in particular areas of your life, there's no way you can eradicate it entirely... being "better" is a matter of relatives that isn't for us to judge.

On seeing people as sinful as an unhealthy outlook

Firstly, because it's false. Secondly, because it leads to a lack of self confidence, depression, repression, and a cheapening of the value of humanity.

1 - How do you know it's false?
2 - On the contrary, that is what i see, yet I do not see myself as lacking in confidence, nor depressed or repressed. As for it cheapening the value of humanity, I can only ask you to explain your reasoning.

"Perfection" is a idealized term. It is unobtainable by definition. So, no-one is perfect by definition, nor does it make sense to try to be perfect.

Good enough is best.

As Christians see it, Jesus is perfect, as was his life on earth. Perhaps you are unwilling to accept Christianity as being possibly true from the outset. If you could prove there is no God, then I would agree - if that was the case, it would also follow that we cannot, definitionally, be perfect - so why try to do the impossible? However, if you for a moment consider that Christianity could be true - suppose for a moment that there is a God, and that God *wants* us to get as close to eliminating sin in our life, as we can -- because that brings us closer to Him - and because our sin hurts Him - and also because sin is harmful to ourselves and to those around us... then perhaps I might dare ask if really, it is so illogical to strive for perfection, though acknowledging at the same time that it is unattainable.

I imagine most of us have done things we regret. Regret is one form of nature's punishment. We don't need the concept of "sin" causing regret when it isn't warranted.

I don't think it's a matter of us "needing the concept of sin" - I think that there simply, *is* the concept of sin, whether we would like to accept it's existence, or not.
As for regret - I see it as an indication that we do admit that we have done things that are wrong - that we have sinned.

Cheers

Originally posted by raingirl
1 - How do you know it's false?

Because it has been designed to be untestable. Therefor it is a self reinforcing delusion.

Originally posted by raingirl
2 - On the contrary, that is what i see, yet I do not see myself as lacking in confidence, nor depressed or repressed. As for it cheapening the value of humanity, I can only ask you to explain your reasoning.

The question isn't whether you personally lack confidence, are depressed, or are repressed (you better be this one!), but whether the concept of sin tends to instill these in people.

Regarding the cheapening, "sinners" are obviously flawed and "imperfect", particularly those who are not "saved". The rather obvious conclusion is that "sinners" have less value, and unsaved sinners have essentially no value. What a wonderful tool this has proven to be for political leaders.

Originally posted by raingirl
If you could prove there is no God, then I would agree

I doubt that's true, nor is it likely possible to disprove god to your satisfaction.

Originally posted by raingirl
- if that was the case, it would also follow that we cannot, definitionally, be perfect - so why try to do the impossible?

It is your mere presumption that gods would care about whether or not you were perfect, even if they did exist, which is another mere presumption.

Originally posted by raingirl
However, if you for a moment consider that Christianity could be true - suppose for a moment that there is a God, and that God *wants* us to get as close to eliminating sin in our life, as we can -- because that brings us closer to Him - and because our sin hurts Him

Uhm. Isn't this god of yours supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc? He sounds terribly needy even by human standards. If I had a girlfriend this needy I'd dump her in a heartbeat.

Hell, I don't even care if you love me or if you get drunk and engage in casual sex, but your 100% self sufficient god is incomplete somehow if you're imperfect or fail to love him. Can't you see the absurdity?

Originally posted by raingirl
- and also because sin is harmful to ourselves and to those around us...

Not necessarily. Some things called "sin" harm no-one, while some things that do harm others are not considered "sin". Masturbation harms no-one. Neither does "cheating" on taxes, yet these would be called "sin". Driving a car does harm people, yet this is not considered "sin".

Besides, if you harm yourself or someone else, or they harm you, and it is all consentual, then why should we care? It's only when unwitting persons are harmed that we feel threatened.

Or that they are God
Or that since there is no God, they don't need to be nice.
Or that they know what God wants, and they want others to know too.

It is cuz humans are by and large, stupid, self included.
They will spin any instructions or message to suit their ends.
They may never face any punishment from God, but I have no doubt they will be the engineers of their own destruction. You can only use up so much before you run out of stuff.

Spamandham: interesting discussion

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by raingirl
1 - How do you know it's false?

Because it has been designed to be untestable. Therefor it is a self reinforcing delusion.

I'm sory, but that's somewhat flawed logic. Would you apply the same logic to any other theory/concept/whatever that is untestable, and proceed to call it a "self reinforcing delusion"? Think about it, the implications of what you are saying are vast.

Originally posted by spamandham
The question isn't whether you personally lack confidence, are depressed, or are repressed (you better be this one!), but whether the concept of sin tends to instill these in people.

I accept your point that it's not about me personally, but about people in general. However, i still beg to differ. For starters, i would ask where you observe such a trend from. In Christians that i know, i must say i have observed no such trend. Perhaps the concept of sin *does* instill such things in people - but from what i have seen this is not true of the way that this concept appears in the Christian context.

Originally posted by spamandham
Regarding the cheapening, "sinners" are obviously flawed and "imperfect", particularly those who are not "saved". The rather obvious conclusion is that "sinners" have less value, and unsaved sinners have essentially no value. What a wonderful tool this has proven to be for political leaders.

You're right, such a concept has been hugely abused in the past. But political leaders are notorious for twisting religious texts to suit their needs. It's the same with muslim extremists today... it doesn't say that islam is an inherently violent religion... it simply says that it's got a bunch of mad and insane followers. I would apply the same rule for the sinners concept that you've just illustrated.

Further, it is far from an "obvious conclusion" that sinners have less value, and "unsaved sinners have essentially no value". If you read the Bible, you will find that this could hardly be further away from what it teaches.

Originally posted by raingirl
If you could prove there is no God, then I would agree

I doubt that's true, nor is it likely possible to disprove god to your satisfaction.

No, maybe it's a cop out statement from me, because i don't think you could disprove God to my satisfaction. I'm simply saying that my logic is based on the fact that there is a God - that is the foundation of what i'm arguing. Take away this foundation and my logic crumbles. I believe what i'm saying does actually make sense if there is a God - however, it makes little sense if there is no God.

Too bad we can't prove it either way, eh? :p

It is your mere presumption that gods would care about whether or not you were perfect, even if they did exist, which is another mere presumption.

It is no presumption. I accept, since that i cannot prove the bible, that there is the possibility of me being wrong. I base my statement that God (not Gods, plural, for i believe in only one god) would care about me being perfect on what is in the Bible. You can ask me why i believe in the Bible, but i imagine it would be wise to start a new thread if you want to explore that.

Originally posted by raingirl
However, if you for a moment consider that Christianity could be true - suppose for a moment that there is a God, and that God *wants* us to get as close to eliminating sin in our life, as we can -- because that brings us closer to Him - and because our sin hurts Him

Uhm. Isn't this god of yours supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc? He sounds terribly needy even by human standards. If I had a girlfriend this needy I'd dump her in a heartbeat.

You're misunderstanding my statement. God does not NEED us. God LOVES us. He knows that the best thing for us is to walk our journey of life with Him. Our sin is damaging to our relationship with him -- pulls us away from what is good for us -- and God sees this fault in us, and it hurts Him.

Hell, I don't even care if you love me or if you get drunk and engage in casual sex, but your 100% self sufficient god is incomplete somehow if you're imperfect or fail to love him. Can't you see the absurdity?

You're misunderstanding what ive said again... i'm sorry if i was unclear. If true, what you have taken to be my statement would indeed be absurd if true.

This 100% self sufficient God is indeed self sufficient. It's not God who's incomplete with out us. WE are incomplete without God.

***

One last thing on sin >> definitionally, i think we would have different ideas of what it is. I would define it as anything that involves our disobediance to God. I would say that all sin has at least the potential for harm.

I cannot prove to you whether an absolute concept of sin exists or does not. All i can attempt to do is to show you that, if there is a God who exists, sin is not such an absurd concept after all. But to accept that, you would have to allow the possibility that there could be such a God out there.

Anyway, time to chill for me