What's the difference?

Just a thought and a quaetion that has puzzled me the last several days...

What is the difference in God's forgiveness of a man's sin and Lucifer's willngness to oblige it?

It appears that had Jesus come to take all sin then we are sinless and all will go to heaven. On the other hand if Jesus didn't remove our sins then it is left to each of us to live as He taught.

What would be the purpose of removing our sin, cleansing our soul so to speak and leaving us to live in an unjust world where we would be forced, or tempted to return to sin to survive?

Can anyone see where this is going?

We are not cleansed of sin just by professing to believe in Jesus. We are not saved by our pretense but rather by God's grace and our willingness to turn from sin.

I remember years ago when we were taught to leave out sins at the foot of the cross. Now I hear we should let Jesus pay for our sins. Perhaps a pin your sin on Jesus day is in our future? A day when we gather to write our sins on pieces of paper and pin them on an effigy. Of course then we can burn the effigy and the sins while enjoying a weinie roast with stout/beer and our favorite sinful delights.

Better make sure you write this one on the paper as well.

Jesus died for the sins of the entire world once and for all, one time, for all time. It is finished. Now while the offer for forgiveness is available to all, not all will be available to receive it. If Govenor Charlie P of the State of Kawalie offered a free and unconditional pardon to a murderer called Jones who raped little kids and women before torturing them and killing them. And to show of his live for Jones the Governor was willing to be beaten and injected with death juice untill his blood went cold and he died. And the offer made had said in writting that it is there for Jones but only if he will say he was wrong and is guilty and would accept the offer made by the Governor....

If Jones accept the offer, he is forgiven.

If Jones rejects the offer, he dies for his crimes



Fromabove

Well in common mythology, Lucifer represents the evil side of humanity and nature. Its something purely dark, unlike humans which are never "true evil." As such, it's something we fear and something we try to stay away from. A "pact with the devil" would simply be giving into the corrupted side of humanity, giving into anger, hatred, etc.


Remember what buddha said, you will not be punished for your anger, your anger will punish you.


That's what Lucifer represents in Christian Mythology , the dark side of humanity.

As for the Jesus symbolism. In Christian Mythology, Jesus dieing for our sins isn't the important part, it's his rise back from the ashes, like a phoenix that is. It symbolizes compassion for humanity, in a dark time, and symbolizes that the christian god will forever be passionate for those who seek forgiveness.

Some of this makes sense and here's the BUT......

If Jesus died for all our sins for all time, then why aren't we in heaven? What would be the use of dying for something if you were going to let it rot?

There is much more than meets the eyes here. If I understand you Fromabove then Jesus owes me all the sins he died for. Which means any sin I commit is a gift from God. Doesn't make much sense that God would not want me to sin and yet he would make sin His gift by sending Jesus to die.

Are you sure this is the way things are?

I seem to remember somewhere something about treating others the way you would have them treat you. If it is otherwise now I wish God would tell us. You see if someone sins against me then by your accounting it is right and just in Gods eyes that I treat him/her with equal evil.

Jesus died for the sin that I would commit and made it a gift of God.

I can't buy that you know. It makes no sense. God would not have me sin.
Yet Jesus paid for that sin. Which is confusing in itself.

If Jesus paid for all sin then there is no sin. So no matter what I do I can't be a sinner......is that what you are saying?

Still, what is the difference in God's forgiveness and Lucifer's obliging sin?
So far all I can see is either there isn't any which means there is no true good or evil, or there is a difference and we don't know what it is.......

Originally posted by Fromabove
Jesus died for the sins of the entire world once and for all, one time, for all time. It is finished. Now while the offer for forgiveness is available to all, not all will be available to receive it.

Not so.
It is not an 'offer of forgiveness'--it is a free gift of reconciliation:

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life!

'When we were enemies': before we even sought forgiveness
'we were reconciled to God': 'reconcile' means 'to change mutually'

The situation of sin (as in the 'original sin' state that we are all born into as mortal human souls) and its inevitable wage of death was changed mutually for us, by God, on our behalf. We did not participate--God did His part and our part (through Christ):

Not only that, but we also continue to boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.

We were all subject to sin, and death, because of one man's (Adam) disobedience.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to everyone, because all have sinned.
Certainly sin was in the world before the law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no law.
Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed.
He is a type of the one who would come.

Even if we lived our whole life and never disobeyed God, we would still have received the penalty for a transgression we did not commit. Because Adam disobeyed, we were all penalized.

But God's free gift is not like Adam's offense.
For if many people died as the result of one man's offense, how much more have God's grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus Christ, been showered on many people!

Not only is the penalty lifted, additional things will be given. But the 'free' gift is absolutely free.

Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense brought condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.

Not only is the condemnation lifted, insurance against future condemnation is given along with the pardon. This insurance is 'justification.'

For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus Christ!

If it seems unfair that all must pay for one man's offense, it is shadowed by the 'unfair' overflowing on all of us, after the curse from the offense is lifted.

Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.
~Romans 5:10-18

If we were once born only to die, simply because Adam disobeyed (regardless of whether we obey or not) then now we are all born in order to be justified and live.

If we didn't have to do wrong to get punished, then we don't have to be forgiven to receive pardon. That just doesn't make sense, from any point of view. God is perfectly righteous and just--any 'unfairness' on His part is never on the side of withholding but rather on the side of generosity. Meaning: giving freely to all of us above and beyond what is deserved.

Most don't realize this, though--and go through life scorning or disbelieving in the possibility of there really being a God who created all of us. What they miss out on now is not because they haven't begged for forgiveness but instead is because they are misled by those who promote themselves as God's so-called 'Good-will' Ambassadors (self-appointed)--spreading a gospel of condemnation and conditional 'salvation' rather than one of reconciliation and completed salvation.

No man is a failure when it comes to receiving God's free gift--and God has been successful in His granting of that gift. It seems to many that it will not be a complete and perfect work when accomplished--self-appointed Ambassadors do not declare God's abilities beyond the 'impossible' and the Ambassadors God elected are usually drowned out and always work 'alone'--in body--yet one day soon it will suddenly become manifest that work has been going on all along, quietly and steadily, by those who truly 'come in the name of the LORD' and bring 'good news and glad tidings to all men...'

which is the declaration of God's success in overcoming mortality--on behalf of every single last one of us!

Originally posted by garyo1954
If Jesus died for all our sins for all time, then why aren't we in heaven?

Because we are not dead yet!
Otherwise, it's just a matter of one last breath, a quick passage through a darkness and then...
home free!

What would be the use of dying for something if you were going to let it rot?

And what kind of God can't do something so important in a throroughly successful fashion?

I seem to remember somewhere something about treating others the way you would have them treat you. If it is otherwise now I wish God would tell us. You see if someone sins against me then by your accounting it is right and just in Gods eyes that I treat him/her with equal evil.

Good point. Definitely wrong, then, now that you've simplified it.

The opposite is actually true--it is right and just in God's eyes if we treat both our loved ones and our enemies with love and forgiveness.

Still, what is the difference in God's forgiveness and Lucifer's obliging sin?
So far all I can see is either there isn't any which means there is no true good or evil, or there is a difference and we don't know what it is.......

No difference, essentially. Learning experiences for our benefit. Lucifer gets a paycheck signed by God, same as Michael and Gabriel do...

All archangels are treated fairly. God is an 'equal opportunity employer!'

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Well in common mythology, Lucifer represents the evil side of humanity and nature.

See... idk. I kinda have a hard time believing that in a way. God told us not to eat that apple. Turn's out, thank's to satan telling us it was ok we gained alot of knowledge about what was right/wrong and such ... Why would god want to keep us in the dark about this, essentially keeping us stupid. As for being the evil side ... by that logic, all the christian's who killed in the name of god during the crusade's must've secretly worshipped satan, or were directed by satan to carry out the crusade's. Why would god say thou shalt not kill, then order people to kill in his name when in the past he had no problem killing his people himself? Did he suddenly start having a guilt trip and didn't want the blood directly on his hands? Maybe he made a secret pact with the devil himself and asked him to speak in his name and get the crusad's under way

Interesting response Annie. I will definitely have to give this more thought.
Wolf made good points and Produkt as well.

I am beginning to see how little difference there is in the way God sees sin and the way Lucifer treats it.

Maybe they both are just sitting back saying, "Since we can't beat them we might as well join them?"

Of course this messes up the idea of true Good and true Evil.......oh me!

Originally posted by garyo1954
I am beginning to see how little difference there is in the way God sees sin and the way Lucifer treats it.

I don't think it even comes down to God 'seeing' and Lucifer 'treating' it. It is man's illusion, not God's nor His Staff's.

Maybe they both are just sitting back saying, "Since we can't beat them we might as well join them?"

Or maybe they are saying...

'Wonder how long it is going to take them until they realize what the real deal actually is?'

Of course this messes up the idea of true Good and true Evil.......oh me!

This does, too:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
~Isaiah 45:7

According to the Hebrew, it could also be translated something like this:

I form happiness/light/day,
create/select/dispatch darkness/misery/ignorance:
appoint peace/prosperity,
and create/select/dispatch adversity/mischief/wickedness:
I, the self-existent, accomplish/appoint/provide all these.

It's just one of those things that make the bible so contradictory on Itself.

So many can give their own opinions on what they think the bible means but at the ends is just an opinion.

To me it means that we are all without sin because Jesus reason to come to earth was indeed to die for our sins.

So when he died he make us clean, but occurs the original church and many modern Church's will not agree with that because then guilt is not needed for salvation.

beat me.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by marg6043]