A Question of Virtue

I have a question to secret society members and anyone in general.
I do not pretend to know the answer. Forgive my ignorance. Enlighten me.

Where is the virtue / wisdom / charity in being involved in an institution that:
1.) Hoards information.
2.) Operates in a clandestine / underhanded manor.
3.) Intitutes a division in humanity on earth --> creates yet another elite / peasant dynamic in society.
4.) Directly (perhaps indirectly) takes the role of judge of a man's ability to achieve enlightenment, wisdom, and right knowledge.

Help me out with this one.

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Where is the virtue / wisdom / charity in being involved in an institution that:
1.) Hoards information.

What do you mean by hoards? All the information in the Secret Societies I'm involved with is available to the general population.

2.) Operates in a clandestine / underhanded manor.

Well other than say the Mafia and related they don't. (I'm pretty sure you are not talking about the mob)

3.) Intitutes a division in humanity on earth --> creates yet another elite / peasant dynamic in society.

They don't, If you feel inferior well... that's your problem.

4.) Directly (perhaps indirectly) takes the role of judge of a man's ability to achieve enlightenment, wisdom, and right knowledge.

Again they don't, but it looks like you are taking care of the judging part.

What one of the so called "Secret Societies" are you talking about
I was with a "Secret Society" once. It was a group of guys that went out of town aver other week to get away from our wives. We told them (our wife's) that we had security meetings 2 times a month and would leave Friday night and be back Sunday after noon.

[edit on 4-1-2006 by Mr101Hazardous]

I didn't know that any Secret Society made it a point to have virtue, wisdom, and charity.

With what little I know from my studies, I know there are people out there that have a great deal of knowledge that has been hidden from the rest of the populace for the explicit purposes of making the general public the less paid and hardest working worker class. It should be noted though that I'm not saying these people belong to any secret society, but it is a possibility.

When people come into possession of a sizable amount of power, they become corrupted by it because they fear losing it. This fear drives them to do things that will prolong their position of power. In doing so, they force the rest of the population to work for less so that they may have more.

I only wish I knew more.

CUG:
Which one's are you involved with so that I will know which don't do the things I referred to.
In regards to the general feel of your response, obviously you cannot speak for all secret societies regarding what I asked. I never referred to any one specific society. Please take note of this. Calling me judgemental means that you did not understand the words that I first posted. By definition, secrecy is a clandestine act. (Look up "clandestine" in the dictionary ----> it's a good word!)
Please be more careful as it wastes our time when I am forced to clarify to you "that" which needs no clarification.

Mr101Hazardous:
I am talking about the one's that do these things. I don't pretend to know which ones. I have been told by others which ones do but that is heresay.
Obviously I'm not talking about a "husband's - night - out" club.
You know I wasn't talking about that.
It wastes our time even posting that.

Borg
Interesting comment.

[edit on 1/4/2006 by theBLESSINGofVISION]

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Where is the virtue / wisdom / charity in being involved in an institution that:
1.) Hoards information.
2.) Operates in a clandestine / underhanded manor.
3.) Intitutes a division in humanity on earth --> creates yet another elite / peasant dynamic in society.
4.) Directly (perhaps indirectly) takes the role of judge of a man's ability to achieve enlightenment, wisdom, and right knowledge.

Help me out with this one.

I would have to say that the above isn't demonstrative of virtue, charity or wisdom
but then you are also putting ALL secret/private societies and organizations into the same pot.

I also am interested in which group(s) you are referring to. From my experience in Masonry,
I would guess that it couldn't be any Masonic organization. I have never been witness to nor engaged in any of the charges above.

Originally posted by TheBorg
I didn't know that any Secret Society made it a point to have virtue, wisdom, and charity.

I don't consider Masonry a secret society but many folks do.
Please take a look at this excerpt from www.nymasons.org...

We are the Masons. We believe in helping others. We believe there is more to life than pleasure and money.
We respect the opinions of others. And we all want to grow and develop as human beings.
Masons are moral, honest men who work together to improve themselves and their communities.
Our motto is “friendship, morality, and brotherly love.”

What You are describing might sound like our government or military.
You might look into some antidisestablishmentarisms.

You seem to have a ensue with time. It wastes no time to try to help one out. We are trying to help You achieve enlightenment and knowledge.

I'm not sure what to make of these...
how shall I say...
"collective" responses from you (plural?).

theBLESSINGofVISION: To whom are you speaking?

hmm...
this isnt going anywhere.
i wish that things like this could be discussed openly,
but i realize the reality of the futility of this thread.

Maybe if you were a little more specific, we could engage in something more substantial...

In the same order as was originally posted:

1. I personally don't have a problem with an organisation collecting knowledge for the benefit of its members. Libraries exist for the public, as the general populace funds them through taxes. An organisation which collects and stores information by its own means is under absolutely no obligation to share or disclose that information to the public.

2. Non-disclosure is sometimes a necessary and desirable factor in an organisation's function. The Police, for example, would only be stymied by total disclosure of their investigations to the public. They would be much less successful in their operations. Sorry if this is stating the obvious.

3. The creation of a socio-economic class system is obviously not desirable for any democracy. It certainly couldn't be described as charitable. I'm interested as to whom this particular point refers to, even if it is just hearsay...

4. It is largely inconsequential whether an organisation deems its tenets to be the correct path to enlightenment/wisdom/right thinking. I mean, this has been going on for hundreds of years in religion, science, and politics. It is up to the individual to decide which is the appropriate path for themselves. No organisation is going to publicly proclaim that "Ours is the wrong path. Our information is incorrect and benefits no one". Why would they?

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
hmm...
this isnt going anywhere.
i wish that things like this could be discussed openly,
but i realize the reality of the futility of this thread.

I suggest you find someone in one of these groups that can help you more. Look around; I'm sure they're everywhere. Just meet one, and begin a conversation. See where it goes. You never know what you may learn.

This reminds me of something I was told when I was very little. I was told that if I wanted to be very knowledgeable, that I should simply listen to what others say. It is my belief that we can learn something from everyone. Perhaps, if we bump into the right person at the right time, we might learn something that will change our lives before our lives are changed for us.

I'm not in any secret societies, but since there's been time for others to answer, I'll throw in some thoughts.

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Where is the virtue / wisdom / charity in being involved in an institution that:
1.) Hoards information.

Most secret societies don't with-hold information, not in the normal sense anyways (from what I can see anyway). Take, for example, the Carbonari. Their secret information was that they were radical anti-monarchists. Thats not really information. Masonry claims to be a science of a sort, and while that coudl be seen as hiding information, really, what is there information? Their initation plays? But anyone can get that, all they have to do is join. Technically one could say that their 'only' secret is their modes of recognition (handshakes, watchwords, etc), but I suspect that those modes of recognition are also part of the knowledge they claim to impart. The Knights of Pythias, Elks, etc, are in the same situation. They claim to make people better men, they do it in private and don't want people, say, recording their methods, rites, lectures, etc, and publically distributing them. Also, most of these groups, the knowledge isn't possible to impart publically, because the 'knowledge' is gained through the enactment of the dramas/rites.

But what is wrong with this?

Groups like OTO and Rosicurianism and these numerous Thelemic movements out there, they have, perhaps, more of a claim at offering "information" in the way we usually think of it. However, I don't think that they keep anything truly important secret, by this I mean, we can say that any religion is more or less secret, but they do tend to say 'ours is the way to salvation'. These more religious secret societies say the same thing, more or less. Their information beyond that, the details of it, is secret, and this is because the secret of the information, the way it works, is through revelation, usually sets of revelations. You can't just tell the public all at once everything in every rosicurian rite and ritual, because its meaningless then, its only through going through the progression, and having to actively seek these things, that they function, that the information is imparted. 'Reveal' it publically, and you just have words and charts and sketches, not the actual information.

So, again, I am not a member of any of these groups, I don't know precisely how their information works, but this is my understanding of how it works. Given that, then yes, there is great virtue in keeping it 'secret'. Presenting it publically does nothing, even, perhaps, destroys that information for that person.

2.) Operates in a clandestine / underhanded manor.

Was it virtuous for Brutus and Cassius to conpsire in the dark of night to kill Caesar? Were the Sons of Liberty virtuous? Was there virtue in the rebellious action of the Boston 'Tea Party'?

3.) Intitutes a division in humanity on earth --> creates yet another elite / peasant dynamic in society.

For masonry, the elite are the ones that made the group, it didn't create any more barriers, and it at times worked to reduce those barriers. In the US, masonry switched from the gentlemanly british sort into a more revolutionary populist sort.
Althought, in sierra leon, for example, it re-inforced the divisions between descendants of freed non-native slaves and natives. On the other hand, those descendants of freedmen distinguished themselves by being far more educated and apt at running the sierra leonean government, so there again, bit of a conundrum.
With the KofP and KofC, there isn't an elite created. If some old italian guy was walking around all puffed up in an admirals suit, thinking he's better than everyone else because of it, he'd be a fool, no one is going to give him authority because of membership in the group.
Where elitism becomes very important is the Bohemian Club, and the various other similar Elite Social Clubs. These things strongly re-inforce the existing social elite's status and network them.
But the Bohemian Club isn't really a 'secret society' in the same way that masonry or OTO is. Remove the Bohemian Club, and instead of networking in california, they'll do it on their yachts.

4.) Directly (perhaps indirectly) takes the role of judge of a man's ability to achieve enlightenment, wisdom, and right knowledge.

If one posesses this englightenment and can impart it, then of course they have to make decisions about who to try to impart it to. Jesus, for example, had 12 Apostles, not a million. Besides, these groups, it doesn't take much to join any of them really. I don't know if they have real knowledge. But knowledge is something you have to go out and get and work for. If a person can't be bothered to join one of these groups, then how is the group really at fault for that person not getting knowledge?


Also, for what its worth, I've seen masons and rosicurians and thelemites come to this board and try, really try, to impart what they beleive is the wisdom that their group claims to offer. You might not get the watchword for the sublime prince or the mix of acts that you have to do in a thelemic rite from them, but they are allways willing to talk to people about what their group beleives, how it goes about it, what it has to offer, and, hell, even how to join.

Nygdan,

Having read your post, I'm please that you present such a refreshing, seemingly unbiased view on this. However, it should not be a matter of course for a group of people to hold knowledge that should be openly available to the public, simply for the purposes of controlling them.

I don't know if any group does this, but I suspect if they do, they are doing so to prevent the general population from being empowered by it. If, for example, some group hid the knowledge of how to make a drug that could stop AIDS or Cancer, should that be allowed just because they belong to a secret group of upper-class people? I use that as a very drastic example to illustrate the importance of "freedom of information". People should not be held back from evolving just because a few selfish individuals want to control them. That's just not right.

All things within reason though. I don't think military secrets need to be given out to just anyone. That would be stupid, since it's each country's job to try and keep things like that quiet so others don't find out. That just makes sense.

Anyway, this post is beginning to ramble a bit, and by now I'm sure you all know what I mean here. So, with that all said, I digress...

Good post Nygdan, you would have my WATS vote if you were eligible. But you're not, sadly, so I'll have to give it to someone else. Maybe...

Originally posted by Nygdan
But knowledge is something you have to go out and get and work for.

One of the interesting features of Life is that great truths are hidden in front of our very noses. This is one of them (the 'No Free Lunch' scenario), and I'm grateful to you for underlining it. There are others too, like 'Love really is the most important thing ever' and 'you get the Life you deserve'.*

The only fraternity I can really speak about from experience is Freemasonry. Freemasonry in itself has nothing new to say, but it acts as a channel for individuals to make their own discoveries, and learn about themselves and the world around them. A 'Blueprint for Life'. As you have deduced, it's all about the 'How' not just the 'What'.

Personally, I feel that FM is unfairly categorized as a Secret Society. But it has engendered a certain 'mystique' around the Craft which is no bad thing.

(* another one is 'we let you win in 1783' but I guess that's a bit off topic )

Nygdan, I must say that your words were interesting to say the least.
It has made me withdraw and mull them over at length...
I concede to you that your words have an edge of wisdom that i cannot deny...

quote: Originally posted by Nygdan
But knowledge is something you have to go out and get and work for.

Now I go out, resume in hand, loooking for knowledge employment.

[edit on 1/18/2006 by theBLESSINGofVISION]