Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
I'm sorry, but that just wrong. Either everyone has the right to nukes or no one does.

How can anybody have such an all or nothing opinion when it comes to nuclear weapons? I would say nobody should have nukes, but that's not the case right now, so unfortunately we all live in fear of nuclear war. It doesn't seem like a great idea to ensure the nuclear war we all fear by allowing everyone to obtain them, making it certain that they will be used. Look at the two new kids on the nuclear block, India and Pakistan, they were on the brink of nuclear exchange before any conventional war began. Do you really think we need anymore nuclear powder kegs like that here on earth? How about a dozen more? Is that the key to peace on earth, nuclear weapons for everybody? I think it would be cool if we were back on the track of nonproliferation, not hyperproliferation.

Aahhh... but you miss the point made, saying we now must control who holds the nuclear weapons, and who may not, is a rather elitist position, is it not?

I think we're all a bit mad.

We really do not need another front to fight in the middle east. We invade another mid-east country and that place and all of the people of Islam will just boil with hatred for us. We dont need that, we cant afford it. Let the #$@% oil companies pay for it. We need to look inward, at our own corrupt government. Its both sides niether side is for the people, they are for the corporations only. Nafta, the WTO and our leaders haver shipped our jobs overseas and we are becoming a nation that doesnt make hardly anything anymore. GM is going BK maybe with talks of laying off 30,000 employees and you think another damn distraction in the mid-east is what we need?!?

We need to look in our own yard really good and hard boys and girls. One day we will be begging for more protection and the middle class will feel lucky if they get paid min wage. Our nation needs a cleansing, a big huge enema and get rid of all these crooks that have been misleading us for so long.

Pull out of the middle east now, thats what we need to do.

Gents, let's not forget that an Iranian nuclear program violates international law. If you didn't have nukes and test them prior to 1967, but you still signed the NPT, it is illegal for you to have nuclear weapons.

Furthermore, the idea that fairness has any place in strategy is dangerous and should be dispensed with post haste. Do you know what happens to people who play fair? Neither do I... it's kind of unpredictable because they are left at the mercy of those who do not play fair.

This nonsense whereby we assume that we're wrong and our enemy's have a leg to stand on and therefore shoudl be afforded the opportunity to threaten us is suicidal. It has come from a ridiculous notion of "civilization" put forth by the two least warlike nations on Earth- France and Germany. We're talking about nations where foreign affairs are undervalued, where regional interests are esteemed above national ones, where the people (Normans and Prussians aside) have never been able to fight if their lives depended on it, etc. These people are wretched- they have no concept of what it takes to survive, they are aloof because somebody else has always been willing to step in and save their butt. They have no concept of what it is to care about something bigger than yourself enough to put yourself in harms way for it.

War is an awful thing, but it is not the most awful thing...

"Fairness" is not an answer, and the only reason that France and Germany aren't learning this the hard way either in their own nations or elsewhere is because we evil warlike Americans who they hate so much make their way of life possible.

Now, for better or for worse, this world is governed by force. Nobody has ever come up with any idea of government which is not predicated on some level on force or the threat of force. You can trust others, or you can trust yourself. There is nothing fundementally unjust about being in power and having the world exist by your leave, providing that you don't actually use that advantage to violate the fundemental rights of others. I think it's a pretty dang good idea to be in charge and not do anything with it; it protects you, and in and of itself does not harm anyone else.

Give Iran nukes, wait 12 months, then read the next line.


I told you so.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Aahhh... but you miss the point made, saying we now must control who holds the nuclear weapons, and who may not, is a rather elitist position, is it not?

The point is not lost on me, I understand what you mean. However, elitist or not, should we really put human survival, the survival of our children, up against such bad odds for the sake of a principle? For the sake of just being "fair"? And again, I say I don't want to see anybody with nuclear weapons, including us. I hope mankind will evolve to the point of ridding the world of them, and I don't think we should make that future task more difficult by flooding the world with them more than they already are, that's all.

sorry but i really dont care if they have nukes, our only affairs with other countries should be trade, other then that and maybe a hitler regime going on a conquest we should stay out. bring our compnaies back home, along with our jobs.

the more the lower class and upper class differ the more chance of civil war. dont think we are head to depression again? some say it cant happen because credit isnt the same. your right it wont be OUR credit that is abused then cant be paid back, it will be our countries. and everyone not rich already will be more poor then you could ever imagin because they are the ones who dont have anything and now their money is worthless.
1. we still depend on credit that cant be paid back
2. middle class becomes more and more like lower class while upper middle class becomes more like upper class.

people getting tired, but keep pushing the limits. the corruption and spend of our money like its nothing. eventually it will come back at them.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Sit down, throw one back and remember, our technology, resources and talent pool far outweighs Iran's. They can't scratch their X without our knowing about it. At least, in the sense of being a threat to the west.

Even if they are only a threat to Israel, we have another nuclear powder keg to worry about, and one that is even more heated than the India vs. Pakistan keg. If nuclear war breaks out in the Middle East, millions will die and who knows what kind of chain reaction that would create, not to mention fallout traveling (not sure how far), and alot of the worlds oil.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
people getting tired, but keep pushing the limits. the corruption and spend of our money like its nothing. eventually it will come back at them.

I really empathize with that statement. I know I am getting tired and everyone I know is getting tired. Firefighters and Police being laid off, counties not able to get enough funds to properly plow the roads. We need our troops back, and we need to pull up the ole bootstraps and fix this country before it gets any worst.

All this fear mongering about Iran getting Nukes, that they want for protection and we are going to invade them because of it? Insane! Look at the person in the mirror and tell that person you are satisfied with the way our country is going.

they worry about attacks from distant countries, but whats gunna happen when the lower class finally gets totally fed up and doesnt riot in L.A. but marches over to city halls and the politicans homes?

we are the biggest threat to them, and they know this. they try to keep peace with us because they know they cant start a war with us yet. make no mistake though, we are their enemies. they cant attack us yet, but thats why they need to reach a police state.

far as iran goes, thats just another front to keep us busy. so they can keep pumping money out for 2000 dollar toilet seats. and 1000 dollar screw drivers. truth is our threat isnt foreign its home. they are stealing our dollars right now to further their own agendas. worst part is that when we catch them we cut them deals and go easy on them, hell maybe even just put them on house arrest for a couple months. man steals from a convience store because he cant afford to feed his kids, he gets years in prison. politican steals millions and we cut em a deal.
point blank: iran isnt our number 1 problem.

[edit on 3-1-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
All this fear mongering about Iran getting Nukes, that they want for protection and we are going to invade them because of it? Insane! Look at the person in the mirror and tell that person you are satisfied with the way our country is going.

I don't think an invasion would be necessary. I will ask you directly though, do you think allowing every country that seeks nukes to obtain them will bring about a more peaceful world? I have many problems with the Bush administration and the direction of this country, but I'm looking past him, and to a world brimming with nuclear weapons. I wonder what direction our country will go in a world like that, I suspect down personally.

nukes either prevents wars or it doesnt. i think it does. you invade, they nuke you. unless your suicidal then chances are thats a no go. its the fact we got these 8 powers with nukes invading countries without them. they dont have to worry because they dont have nukes. we wouldnt have gone to iraq if they really had nukes, because they would have used them and wed know it. it would be like attacking any other country with nukes. we wouldnt do it in fear of nuclear war. that wasnt the case with iraq because we knew they didnt have any.

Here's a valid question to ponder: what if Mexico had nukes and Canada was pursuing them. What if Mexico just invaded a neighboring country? What if you were the leader of this country nearby and you saw that going on around you. And your country had a nice supply of vital resources. Would you not consider arming yourself?

grimreaper797

Pakistan and India came to the brink of nuclear war, before any convential combat ever started. There are eastern checks to western nuclear powers, there doesn't need to be an ever increasing number of nuclear rivalries. Imagine if some of the regimes in Africa obtain nuclear weapons, think they wouldn't use them? Think they have any comprehension or concern for the consequences? No worries about the rest of the world stepping in to put a stop to whatever genocide you wish to inflict on whomever if you have nuclear weapons, right? Some are seemingly willing to risk their own existence on the principle that nobody should have the right to control who can or cannot destroy the world at the press of a button, and a belief that all should have access to that button. It's really hard to comprehend.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Here's a valid question to ponder: what if Mexico had nukes and Canada was pursuing them. What if Mexico just invaded a neighboring country? What if you were the leader of this country nearby and you saw that going on around you. And your country had a nice supply of vital resources. Would you not consider arming yourself?

It depends on what I hoped to accomplish with those weapons. If Mexico had nukes already, then my only reason for having them would be to destroy Mexico completely while bringing about my own country's destruction. So I would have to be more worried about killing everybody in Mexico, than saving everybody in Canada which would be the price to pay. But if I, as the Canadian leader felt that Mexico was an abomination in the eyes of god (no religion in particular), or just had such a deep hatred for Mexicans that I felt they should be wiped off the earth, and called for the utter destruction by fire of Mexico, and I was pursuing nuclear weapons, Mexico would have reason to be concerned. Especially if Mexico would have no grounds to invade my country whatsoever if I wasn't so intent on obtaining those weapons. I'd be bringing the problem on myself, in a race to prevent it. And next time somebody decides to ethnically cleanse, it'll be alot easier if everybody has nukes as an ace in the hole.

yes it is there fault that they called for the ethnic cleansing, which yes is a big problem. how would they benefit though. are we going to call them so stupid that they are going to nuke knowing they would be nuked in retaliation? that just breaks common sense, its a death wish, the entire country of iran would be gone. the leaders i serious dont think are that stupid.

they could just get nukes then stage an attack on themselves and say some other country did it, and invade it now being reassured that nukes will not come into play unless its used by both sides.

its obvious that they want war with isreal, i think the nukes may just be their reassurance that isreal does use theres if they really start to lose the battle. who knows though, the isrealis losing they might still use nukes.

personally i think iran wants war, and sees nukes as a protection against any other country using nukes on them.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
yes it is there fault that they called for the ethnic cleansing, which yes is a big problem. how would they benefit though. are we going to call them so stupid that they are going to nuke knowing they would be nuked in retaliation? that just breaks common sense, its a death wish, the entire country of iran would be gone. the leaders i serious dont think are that stupid.

Its about as stupid as the notion and use of suicide bombers, grimreaper797?
It all boils down to ideology, IMHO.

Accordingly, the longheld ideology of the Iran mullah run government has been the utter destruction of Israel, so in realistic theory, nuclear destruction may be of merit and thought, you know, along the lines of what's in it for those suicide bombers besides 72 virgins...






seekerof

[edit on 4-1-2006 by Seekerof]

yes but this isnt suicide for just the bombers, but everyone in the country including the leaders.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by grimreaper797
people getting tired, but keep pushing the limits. the corruption and spend of our money like its nothing. eventually it will come back at them.

I really empathize with that statement. I know I am getting tired and everyone I know is getting tired. Firefighters and Police being laid off, counties not able to get enough funds to properly plow the roads. We need our troops back, and we need to pull up the ole bootstraps and fix this country before it gets any worst.

All this fear mongering about Iran getting Nukes, that they want for protection and we are going to invade them because of it? Insane! Look at the person in the mirror and tell that person you are satisfied with the way our country is going.

You blame others of fear mongering, yet you do just that in this very post. Do you guys even realize your hypocrasy?

As far as being satisfied goes, I am. I just dont see all the doom and gloom some of you do.

[edit on 4-1-2006 by Dronetek]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
yes but this isnt suicide for just the bombers, but everyone in the country including the leaders.

Agreed, but the quandry here is that Iran is run by suicide bombers, so in contexts, the will of the people has no bearing. It is the will of the mullahs and their grand visions that will have bearing, and undoubtedly, consequences if not checked, either by the people or by outside forces.






seekerof