Holocaust denier thread

It seems that many of the so called Holocaust deniers making the news recently are not in fact denying it happened. What they are questioning is the reporting and figures quoted.

Why should asking questions about this period of history be so taboo? If authorities have undeniable proof of these events then they can debate the fact with those who question it. Simply smearing people and jailing them is outrageous.
So what if they don't believe the "official" story, is it really so bad? Are these people to be criminalised simply for a belief? If the authorities have to resort to these bully tactics in order to stifle debate on a subject then they show themselves to be every bit as dictatorial as the Nazis.

Simple answer is, if people don't want to hear debate on this issue then they don't have to. Walk away, change the channel etc....etc...

To be honest, I get sick of hearing about it. It's almost like it's become an industry now for extorting money out of western countries over some sort of guilt trip. Of course, the money paid in reparations never gets to the holocaust survivors but gets tied up in red tape and held by Israeli banks... and we're supposed to feel guilty for mistreatment?

A scholarly discussion of actual numbers of the murdered is indeed part of the research into the Holocaust, and legitimate questions can be asked.
However, having said that, all too often it seems, questioning the numbers of the murdered is a mere pretext to an anti-semetic attack.

Reading Wang's post, I was thinking he would most likely get a swift string of heated replies... And there you were, Seekerof.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Hello, wang.

I've never heard of that before. Thanks for the link, Seekerof.

Accordingly, while the decision to murder millions was already authorized, the planning, organization, and implementation of the Final Solution took place at the Wannsee Conference.

This is where I gotta jump in Wang. It's evident you were taught a different perspective on the history of WW2 than most of us here have. Where did you grow up? (If you don't mind my asking.)

Originally posted by wang
Democracy won in germany,

Democracy "won" in Germany because the good guys put the bad guys out of our collective misery. And because we shared a similar, if not the same, culture and history.

Referring to an earlier post (while I'm thinking of it), the fact that German/Nazi concentration camps were on non-German soil was because Hitler rolled over those countries and confiscated/used them. (Aside from other more technical reasons.)

If the numbers were smaller that first told,

On the question of numbers, I do share your sense of skepticism. I am not, however, going to dispute that 4 million Jews were murdered. I believe that number is the most accurate I have found. Like you, I have learned about the multitude of homosexuals, gypsies and others who also died mercilessly at the hands of Nazis. I have always believed their combined numbers to be in the neighborhood of 2 million.

6 million total. As for the total number of those who were held and lived to tell, I havn't a clue.

The worst part is, in some ways, all of those people died there, in some way.

Also your post also helped prove my theory, hitler was not present at the conferance

With all due respect, There is no way you can separate Hitler from the mass murder under HIS command. You can bet all the good money you will ever make, Hitler knew full well what was taking place in HIS name. On every inch of soil his soldiers held.

Hitler ran that show.

But if this was in todays court of law hitler would get off scott free with the small amount of evidence of his knowledge of the death camps.

IF.. But not is. Nor was. Adolph Hitler, the supreme coward and sadist, took his own life and that of his wife, among others, rather than stand and face his enemy - like a real man would. That is how much knowledge he had.

Also just to add to the thread, why dont we get told in school about what happend in the ukraine befor and during ww2?

For those of us from the USA, how does what went on in Ukraine during that time pertain to our history - other than an ally and what went on in their backyard? I am unaware of the/our activity in that region back then. I know the Soviet gulags were horrific and much larger in scale throughout the cold war. (Yet another tragedy of staggering proportions.) But that's more post-ww2. In my opinion.

Originally posted by Britguy
Why should asking questions about this period of history be so taboo? If authorities have undeniable proof of these events then they can debate the fact with those who question it. Simply smearing people and jailing them is outrageous.

There is nothing wrong (in my mind) with debating the issue. And I agree no one should be put in jail for disagreeing with the official line. That is another aspect of this whole debate that I just don't get. When I hear folks saying that only 2000 or some such number, Jews were killed during ww2, I would like to buy them a new roll of tin foil. Their tin foil hat's smoking... I cannot even take them seriously.

Many cite the German lead holocaust as something unique or jewish specific. Others have wisely pointed out the variety of people subjected to the NAZI treatment (homosexuals, gypsies, et al.). Let's just look at this in terms of civilians killed to be fair to all of the different groups.

So, let's look in the mirror for a moment. The allies actively bombed axis civilians via city bombing.

According to wikipedia, the use of normal allied bombs killed around 400,000 civilians, and an estimated 120,000 people were thought to be killed by atomic bombs. That's half a million just from planes.

To me, it's interesting how this holocaust was defined in such a way so that the victors wouldn't be included in the mass killing of innocents. Ironic, eh?

1) of course it was real... simply the collective memories of millions of surviving Jews
who lost family members in death-forced labor camps is evidence enough...

2) i do not agree with the Austrian (and possibly German) law that imprisons people for denying it existed, though... why not lock people up who, say, deny the existence of God? anyone should be allowed to express even their delusions and insanity without penalty.

3) on a side-note... i think one piece of BS from WW2 is that Hitler committed suicide... the body found in the bunker was a double, and he escaped- and the Allies knew that fact was bad PR for them... and demoralizing while diluting the victory.

Go Penn State tonight!

TPM

I am not sure about people who deny a fact of history.

Because i was not alive then or in that country, i will do the only logical thing i can do-look at the people who deny it happened.
Well, we have the President of Iran......

Did it happen-no doubt, did as many people die as claimed-that is 4 eadch individual to decide themselves-but remember this-history is written by the victors and always supports their point of view as correct.

On the flip-side, allied bombing did kill a lot of innocent people. Unfortunately. Had I been one of them to die, though, I probly would've preferred death anyway to life under Nazi rule.

Hitler's ace's killed PLENTY of allied folks, too. And, through their heinous and idiotic behavior, were responsible for the a multitude of other deaths - attributed to the allies. It was Hitler's unbridled aggression that got that ball rolling. WW2 is the literal and classic example of 'war is hell.'

Originally posted by radardog

To me, it's interesting how this holocaust was defined in such a way so that the victors wouldn't be included in the mass killing of innocents. Ironic, eh?

Without the victors breaking the will of the German people and damaging their ability to fight as a nation (by bombing military industrial factories) ultimately more people would have died as a result of Hitlers war machine/death factories.

Anyone else die in that war?

Eastcoastkid, i am a born and breed aussie. I got told the "norm" history in high school like anyother western kid.

Also about the people bragging about german documentation skills, you are very right. Yet again you prove my point Missing Final Solution Order
If they are so good at keep records then why was the order by hitler for the extermination of the jews recorded? I dont think the great german record keepers would rely on word of mouth.

And seekof, i am not denying the holocaust. All that i am saying is that i think that the holocaust story has been exagerated, and facts need to be revised. Also you say hitler would of been hanged? I said todays court of law, refering to courts of law like australia, or even america. With the amount of hard evidence agaisnt hitler he would not of been tried and convicted for genocide crimes, yes his goons would but not him.
And you say mein kampf would be thrown in his face, i dont remember judas priest being tried for murder when they were accused of influencing that teenage boy to kill.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
Is number of labour force used by the germans and kille by allied bombardments counted on the total died by the holocaust??

Can you specify or define labour force, MarkLuitzen?
The vast majority of Jews, undesirables, those deemed 'unfit', and sub-humans were in concentration and death camps before the Allies began doing regular massive bombing raids on Germany.





seekerof

forced labour force.
young men drafted out of conquered countries like france belgium poland holland these man were all drafted to work in the factories or to find in the army of germany but mainly in the factories of germany to build tanks and fighterplanes. these were not only jews but mainly fit young men and these people were killed by allied bombing runs with no eye of there being forced labour forces out conquered lands.

Originally posted by wang
Also about the people bragging about german documentation skills, you are very right. Yet again you prove my point Missing Final Solution Order
If they are so good at keep records then why was the order by hitler for the extermination of the jews recorded? I dont think the great german record keepers would rely on word of mouth.

Umm, no, I nor anyone else is "proving" your point. Thanks for the revisionists link, but wang, having had two undergraduate and one graduate level classes in/on the Holocaust, let me assure you of some things here. One of the most asked questions by holocaust deniers, which I am not saying your one, and revisionists, which you have openly insinuated that you are, is where were the written or signed orders authorizing the Holocaust. As I have already mentioned, which you ignored, was that there were no signed orders, that the men who perpetuated these massive murder schemes left no signed orders. I have already provided you with a link to the Wannsee Conference, and those are orders enough. Did you read the link I gave? Do I need to provide more sourcing for you? Will it matter, being you are obviously dead set in your ways on what you believe in this matter? Again, these men were smart enough NOT to leave orders. It is like when the end of the war was fast approaching for the German high command, they began digging up those mass outside and forest graves so as to BURN the bodies--hide the evidences. Orders? Perhaps they were burned up? I doubt it, becuase all academic research on this is that there were no written orders, per se, and what does remain within the German Archives--the minutes for the Wannsee Conference and other documentations--was orders enough, legally, for the death and murder of millions was signed, sealed, and delivered.

And seekof, i am not denying the holocaust.

Cool.

All that i am saying is that i think that the holocaust story has been exagerated, and facts need to be revised.

Your a holocaust revisionist then?
You are aware that the numbers of people murdered IS being legitly revised by legit academic historians and academic historical revisionists, not by non-acedemically backed holocaust deniers and non-academic revisionists, such as IHR, etc? Accordingly, the total numbers of people murdered is in excess of 12 million and the numbers of Jews between 3 and 10 million. Numbers will vary per academic sources, but there is no denying that the numbers are indeed in the 3+ million for JEWS alone, and that is academically undeniable, period. Your sources are what for your revisionist thinking, if I may ask? Is it simply because you are now out of highschool and thus denounce what you were taught, or what?

Also you say hitler would of been hanged? I said todays court of law, refering to courts of law like australia, or even america. With the amount of hard evidence agaisnt hitler he would not of been tried and convicted for genocide crimes, yes his goons would but not him.

You can protect Hitler all you like, but the academically backed and researched truth is that Hitler would have been found and sentenced to death. His death would have been done a number of ways: hanging, firing squad, or electrocution. You can talk evidences all you like, again, I have presented but three--Mein Kampf, the Wannsee Conference, and the physical evidences left, found, and recorded after the war, and be assured, they would have been enough to have Hitler found guilty and sentenced to death, just as they were enough for Himmler, Eichmann, etc, etc., etc.

And you say mein kampf would be thrown in his face, i dont remember judas priest being tried for murder when they were accused of influencing that teenage boy to kill.

If you are going to argue/debate your case here, do not compare apples and oranges and provide sources. Stay within the scope of WWII, Germany, and the Holocaust, k?







seekerof

[edit on 4-1-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
forced labour force.
young men drafted out of conquered countries like france belgium poland holland these man were all drafted to work in the factories or to find in the army of germany but mainly in the factories of germany to build tanks and fighterplanes. these were not only jews but mainly fit young men and these people were killed by allied bombing runs with no eye of there being forced labour forces out conquered lands.

As I already mentioned, those were not added into the Holocaust numbers.
Furthermore, the numbers of those killed during those allied bombing campaiogns against German manufacturing facilities were very small compared to the overall number of jews, slavs, etc, etc. murdered in open-air forest mass killings, deportation, transportation, and those killed in concentration camps and death camps.






seekerof

Its relativly common knowledge that as early as 1943 strategic photos taken by aircraft showed the locations of the camps and the chimneys with smoke bellowing out where clearly visible..Churchill, Roosevelt and co knew exactly what was going on but didnt bomb the camps...maybe if they had of done "die endslosungen" or the "final solution" wouldnt have taken so many lives..one has to ask why didnt they destroy the camps when they had nearly three years prior knoweldge of their existence...maybe the death of so many jews in the camps was in some way benificial to Churchill, Roosevelt and co..

Also the computer firm IBM was backed and funded by the nazi goverment of Germany...one of the first computers invented by IBM was at the express request of Hitler, a simple system of cards with holes in to be read by a machine, which made the selection of the detained jews, handicappeds, homosexuals, interlectuals etc a lot faster and saved paperwork...and speeded their route to the gas chamber..

Maybe we have to ask...who got rich from the holocaust..

Originally posted by andy1972
Its relativly common knowledge that as early as 1943 strategic photos taken by aircraft showed the locations of the camps and the chimneys with smoke bellowing out where clearly visible..Churchill, Roosevelt and co knew exactly what was going on but didnt bomb the camps...maybe if they had of done "die endslosungen" or the "final solution" wouldnt have taken so many lives..one has to ask why didnt they destroy the camps when they had nearly three years prior knoweldge of their existence...maybe the death of so many jews in the camps was in some way benificial to Churchill, Roosevelt and co..

This is simply another assumption and conjecture based mention, often referenced by holocaust deniers and revisionists.
Yes, indeed, it was known that the such was taking place.
As such, doing something would have entailed what exactly? Any suggestions or thoughts?
It was determined by both the UK and US governments--Roosevelt and Churchill--that doing something would have been inconsequential. There were not enough military assets to divert to stopping what had already been taking place, nor were there enough military assets strategically placed. You are aware of when D-Day took place in relation to what you mention and then what I have mentioned? Think about it. Military priorities at the time would not allow doing something that would be required asset and militarily wise. Bombing these facilities was considered, but dismissed when casualty assessments came in indicating that such a venture to do something would have simply compounded and added to the death toll numbers. Sending in special troops to liberate such camps was looked at, but dismissed when assessments came back indicating the sheer size and numbers of those needed to be rescued then transported to safty. Again, military assets and capabilities were insufficient to the tasks and scopes of doing something. As such, knowing about something stands in stark contrast to being able to do anything substantitive at all, without further compounding the situations.

Also the computer firm IBM was backed and funded by the nazi goverment of Germany...one of the first computers invented by IBM was at the express request of Hitler, a simple system of cards with holes in to be read by a machine, which made the selection of the detained jews, handicappeds, homosexuals, interlectuals etc a lot faster and saved paperwork...and speeded their route to the gas chamber..

Link to your source?

Maybe we have to ask...who got rich from the holocaust.

Present the evidences and sourcing, k, cause till then, your making nothing but assertions and conjectures, not adequately arguing or debating your case.





seekerof

[edit on 4-1-2006 by Seekerof]

Perhaps we didn't take out those targets because we weren't certain who was being held there?

If we would have bombed those sites, ALL those folks would have died anyway?

Not good policy.

Anyone who's done the slightest bit of research should be familiar with certain American corporate links to Hitler and his war machine in the days leading into WW2. Google is a wonderful thing. Just be careful with your sources. There's a lotta BS out there.

I agree with ECK and I would like to point out this thread is in PTS and isn't really about the conspiracies resulting from American involvement in the holocaust. The thread is mostly about those who deny the thing ever happened in the first place.

I disagree with one measure of your point, Agent; to me, it seems the whole issue of holocaust deniers, in itself could be manufactured. It's just so stupid. And it carries a fair amount of force, at least on the web. Where the is this coming from ?! It's not coming from experience or logic. What is the point? Ok, so some may have exaggerated certain points and numbers. Who cares? IT HAPPENED. Anyone with the slightest ounce of logic knows it really did happen.

Why is this even a subject to be discussed? Who benefits from this idiocy? It's a valid question. And that's what it is. This thread. A question. A possible conspiracy - for whatever Godforsaken reason.