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Soviet aircraft in German Luftwaffe?

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posted on Jan, 1 2006 @ 08:16 PM
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I know that Germany took left over DDR aircraft back in 1989 when the wall came down but isnt it against NATO regulations?

They took some Sukhois Migs and Mil Choppers, Why did Germany do all this if they are NATO?




posted on Jan, 1 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Simply because they already belonged to East Germany, they didn't 'take' anything and thus Germany, once unified was perfectly entitled to use its own aircraft. Why should there be a regulation against it? The greater the familiarity with Soviet types within NATO the better. They were much in demand for air shows and combat excercises!


[edit on 1-1-2006 by waynos]



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 03:03 PM
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About the Mig 29s, The Luftwaffe should have exchanged them with the US for F-15s becouse the US have a squadron who fly stolen Russian planes, Not against Germany using Mig 29s whatsoever but i just thought about this becouse of NATO regulations

Although im more into western stuff, I quite admire the Mig 29s. Wern't they revamped for NATO use?

Is there such thing as a 'Joyrider Squadron'?

A 'Joyrider Squadron' is for example a NATO squadron that fly stolen Soviet/Enemy aircraft for special purposes like the Red Hat squadron in Area 51.

About the Mil 24 Hind. I quite admire the Hind choppers becouse they are attack choppers with troop carrying capability, I wish NATO would have somthing like that.

Doesnt the Russian SWAT teams use them?



[edit on 2-1-2006 by Browno]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by Browno
About the Mig 29s, The Luftwaffe should have exchanged them with the US for F-15s becouse the US have a squadron who fly stolen Russian planes, Not against Germany using Mig 29s whatsoever but i just thought about this becouse of NATO regulations

Although im more into western stuff, I quite admire the Mig 29s. Wern't they revamped for NATO use?

Is there such thing as a 'Joyrider Squadron'?


Two things to think about: Did the US military WANT the MiGs? And did the Luftwaffe WANT F15? Both a No-No. The german MiG-29 were VERY baseline version, sub-capable to even remotely more modern russian versions. And the F15 wouldnt have fit the Luftwaffe as they dont offer the type of multirole capability Germany already had decided to go for with the Typhoon (the MiG-29 were re-issued in 1995 in to service).

The 24 MiGs from the former DDR JagdGeschwader 3 underwent extensive modifications and modernizations and were made STANAG-compliable where possible and/or reasonable. Still, they were inherently Russian aircraft and had a decidedly different tech base they were founded upon. Funnily enough, many of the improvements MAPO MiG offered for modernization of existing MiG-29 since then were developed on the basis of those NATO experiences with the MiGs


The JagdGeschwader 73 where the remaining MiGs then served their time was not a particular "joyrider" squadron, they were first and foremost a part of the national defense network. But of course they were constantly requested for cross-training and NATO wargames. Germany has a very limited Luftwaffe budget, and I believe only the USA has the luxury of operating whole "testing and evaluation" squadrons anyway -> the concept of a dedicated "joyrider" squadron is not possible in Germany.


About the Mil 24 Hind. I quite admire the Hind choppers becouse they are attack choppers with troop carrying capability, I wish NATO would have somthing like that.

Doesnt the Russian SWAT teams use them?


Usually the Hind is seen as troop carrier with supporting weaponry. Anyway, they didnt quite fit into the "Heeresstruktur" (German Army structure), and the older ones were in a very bad shape.

The thing is: theoretically the "armed transport" concept looks nice, but in reality it is flawed. Every touchdown of the helicopter would make it a sitting duck, rendering all those heavy weaponry useless (though the armour still was a benefit). So either it was an oversized, comparably unmaneuverable attack/fire support helicopter, or a needlessly tricked-out transport/carrier.

For tactical flexibility it is much more effective to have Y number of carrier helicopters (possibly with armour and door gunners), and accompanying those X number of lighter and faster, flexible support/attack helicopters (this can be seen with the Cobra/Blackhawk pairing, or in the German Army with the Tiger/NH90 couple).

I also do not believe that russian SWAT uses the Mi-24. Maybe the GRU Speznas (a military unit) or Alfa and Vympel (the FSB units) - but not the regular police SWATs. Anyway I´d rather guess that those units can ASK the military to provide transport and air cover with their Mi24s, but they are not an inherent part of the respective units.

[edit on 3/1/2006 by Lonestar24]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by Browno
I know that Germany took left over DDR aircraft back in 1989 when the wall came down but isnt it against NATO regulations?

They took some Sukhois Migs and Mil Choppers, Why did Germany do all this if they are NATO?


The former DDR MIGs-29 uses now Polish Luftwaffe.



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 06:09 AM
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Its also not "against" regulations to use non-NATO-compliant technology. Sure, the hundreds of STANAGS (STANdardization AGreements) are made to have a common ground for operations, command and technology, but they are not fully binding. There are numerous examples of STANAGS being overruled by practical demands, such as the G36 transparent magazines which cannot be used by regular STANAG-mag (the M16 magazine) capable weapons (although with a simple adapter G36` can use the STANAG mags).

Most technical STANAGs are micro-solutions anyway, for example a common databus, or a common trailer coupling, and not something that would define technical systems as a whole.



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