Hold on to your faith. It's in for a bumpy ride.

Originally posted by Produkt

Why do people (believers and non-believers) find it so difficult to seperate God from the Bible?

Because for 2000 years now, god and scripture were one and the same. Religous teaching's were supposedly from god. All the stories are about god and his act's. It's only NOW in recent time's that people of faith are starting to realize that the bible is full of BS and now want to seperate god from the bible. The god in the bible is the same moron you people are trying to seperate from the bible. Those people who wrote about the thing's god did in that bible, believed god did those thing's. They didn't write that it was all a moral story crap. It's only in recent time's that you people (again) are reinterpreting your own religous teach's, picking and choosing to believe whatever suites you. Ignoring how god and religous teaching's evolved along with society and the discoveries made that show how previously held belief's were false. You only have faith in what you feel suites you. You have no faith in the original concept of god. YOU changed god! YOU reinterpreted your god!

Well you seem to think you know so much about me Product, please tell me at what age was my first word?

At what age did I first walk?

When was my first kiss?

How old am I?

Whats my hair colour?

What colour are my eyes?

Whats my feet size?

My taste In clothes?

My favorate trainers?

How tall am I?

How often do I shave?

Is my hair short?

You seem to like to publisise the obviouse and put down the truth, the obviouse has a goal and the truth must be found, wake up, your very uneducated In your own most ''Investigated'' area and absolutly none of anything that I have read of your posts has any kind of founded truth to It, to you It seems logical, but you seemed to have convinced your self of that almost forcefully, just who are you talking to here because you seem like your on a mission, and most men on a mission have a score to settle, you seem uneasy and bitter, almost as If you have been let down, but really have you any Idea at all what you are on about. Who are you talking too, you make so many points against the pointless so In your case why bother.

So riddle me this Product, If you have such Intense and deffining proof against GOD and If Indeed GOD does not exist In the first place why does man feel the need to question him In the first place. Something you have obviously done. But don't answer In with the rest of 'us'' answer that your self, from your own heart. For any truth should come from ones own mind.

Death ears are most of the time voluntary, especialy In your case.

You seemed to have become so closed minded that your on a one way path of thinking, yet you state that you value learning and Investigation, which Is the very thing True Faith Is based on, you have contradicted your self countless times In debate with me yet this Is another argument you use against GOD yourself!

I like to get up In the morning and watch the sunset, Is that my own choice?

Or do I do It because everyone else Is doing It?

The point> A man with a free mind will go where the light Is, a man with a free mind will not pretend that the light Is there In the first place.

So Product what makes me and you different, we both have the same cards on the table, both are In clear view, whos bluffing, and WHY?

mytquin,

Yes, some athiest's have. I'll also bet they weren't true athiest's also. I'll bet they still had doubt's. I'll bet the fear of their own mortality caused them to act upon those doubt's. Religion is so ingrained into society today that it's hard to not use it as a crutch. For example, I can't help but say god damnit and jesus christ as cuss words. I can't help but joke around with someone and say ooo ur going to hell! Yet, I don't believe god, heaven, or hell even exist. And as pointed out above, it depends upon the society the person dying is living in.

But I'll bet MOST if not ALL non-believers live a somewhat immoral life that they are happy living and don't want to think of having to answer to a higher power someday.

Not at all. I lead a very good life and I'm an athiest. My children are good, my wife is good. My family and her family are all very good well natured caring atheist's. What about christian's? Witch trials. Crusades. Countless other hypocritical so called goodness comming from that crowd. God sure does love you. Your already commiting a sin in your god's eye's. Love thy neighbor. Point out where that commandmant says only love thy neighbor if they believe in me. You religous folk are quit probably the most hypocritical lot there is.

Religous people have a problem with their faith. They think they're above it.

'Yes I think I'm god.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. Just stating the truth.' Produkt

Originally posted by Produkt

But I'll bet MOST if not ALL non-believers live a somewhat immoral life that they are happy living and don't want to think of having to answer to a higher power someday.

Not at all. I lead a very good life and I'm an athiest. My children are good, my wife is good. My family and her family are all very good well natured caring atheist's. Point out where that commandmant says only love thy neighbor if they believe in me.

First, mytquin, no particular religion's adherents are any more inherently moral or ethical than any other. Atheists are no less righteous than Christians, Wiccans, etc. Attacking all atheists with such an accusation is no more than just your own wild speculation. My dad is a devout atheist, and I can confidently say that in 25 years of business dealings, he was ripped off countless times by 'Christian' business owners, who acted in unethical ways that he would never consider doing. Isaac Asimov is a good example, imo, of an atheist who had his head and heart in the right place.
Produkt, you may state the truth, as you say, but it is YOUR truth, not mine. Mine is different than yours, and no less valid.

One_love,

You think your god always existed? You think 'god' has always been there? You don't think man invented the notion of god's early in our history as explanation's to thing's we didn't understand?

Explain to me then how your monotheistic god is a recent belief system. Explain how YOUR god is the one true god when those before this so called one true god believed in MANY gods. Explain to me how the account of YOUR god's creation story is more valid then those people BEFORE your one true god. Those people tell a wholly different creation history very different then the one in the bible. The native americans say we came from a series of cave's underground, and they been around alot longer then YOUR god. So show me how their creation story isn't true but your's is. Show me how any ancient pre monotheistic creation story isn't true, but your's is.

I'm not closed minded, I'm just not gullible and as stupid as some might like me to be. I do value learning, BUT I refuse to blindly follow a faith without questioning. THAT is closed minded. YOUR god is a RECENT god in terms of human history.

Originally posted by Produkt
One_love,

You think your god always existed? You think 'god' has always been there? You don't think man invented the notion of god's early in our history as explanation's to thing's we didn't understand?

Explain to me then how your monotheistic god is a recent belief system. Explain how YOUR god is the one true god when those before this so called one true god believed in MANY gods. Explain to me how the account of YOUR god's creation story is more valid then those people BEFORE your one true god. Those people tell a wholly different creation history very different then the one in the bible. The native americans say we came from a series of cave's underground, and they been around alot longer then YOUR god. So show me how their creation story isn't true but your's is. Show me how any ancient pre monotheistic creation story isn't true, but your's is.

I'm not closed minded, I'm just not gullible and as stupid as some might like me to be. I do value learning, BUT I refuse to blindly follow a faith without questioning. THAT is closed minded. YOUR god is a RECENT god in terms of human history.

I don't know the man next door so I will not pretend to, I can't judge him for who he Is because I don't know him, no one can ''teach'' friendship, no one can teach love, ones mind must find It.

So in other words you just don't have any explanation for why your god is so recent nor any explanation as to why your recent god is more right then previous gods.

I accept.

Originally posted by Produkt
So in other words you just don't have any explanation for why your god is so recent nor any explanation as to why your recent god is more right then previous gods.

I accept.

You accept lol. A fine example of your desperation In the quest to satisfy your own heart.

You are an unarmed conquer Product.

How can I explain to you the taste on my tounge If you are not willing to taste?

[edit on 18-2-2006 by One_Love_One_GOD]

Oh c'mon ... I'm being serious.

How's your god the one true god and the right god to be following when he's just a recent god in human history.

And

How's your creation myth the right one when there are countless out there that not only predate it, but are also wholly different from it.

Those of faith follow blindly. Those without faith, live a life of constant learning.

here we go with the Anti God thread .

if you dont beleive - more power to you .

but that doesnt have anything to with the people who do .

Bumpy ride my arse . maybe for the people who dont beleive .

doesnt matter , my pizza just got here - woot , im hungry .

Hey, it's not bumpy for me ... I already know where god came from, and those of faith are only showing it more and more with each time they redefine god.

Just my humble thoughts here.
I cannot accept religion, especially the main ones for one reason. When talking to christains etc about why i don't have faith in their religion i don't care to discuss the historical aspects and things like that. It's a neverending battle that you just can't win that usually goes around in circles. I mean if you do your research and memorise lots of data you can probably debate them into the ground, but for the average person who can be bothered?
My reason is that i simply cannot accept that reality is as the bible portrays. Simple as that. No deep and meaningful historical debates needed, just a direct refusal to believe in what the bible says.
Isn't that really where the importance lies?
Regardless of historical facts, if you simply look at what the bible says, or even the spin on the bible that todays religions put forth, i can accept neither, based on my own observations of life and reality.
Is that my fault I have had experiences in my life, which make me reject the bible? That my thoughts are the product of my lifes experiences, and my life is supposedly created and situations are experienced because of god?
Isn't it mean of god to make me have these experiences so that i WOULD reject him, thereby ensuring i go to hell when i die? This is of course assuming that my experiences are a product of him.

Rejecting religion at it's core ( It's beliefs ) Is i feel the most vaild and logical way of rejection.
Once you have 'seen the light' of reality, there is no going back to religion.

I apologize for accusing non-believers of living immoral lives, I just get caught in these kind of debates and my emotions get the best of me. "Religion" won't get you anywhere....form what I have learned, you can have all the "religion" you can stand and still not have love. Produkt, look, I don't have answers to ALL your questions but I do have a FEW. What good is it though for me to tell you why I believe in God/Jesus, when it sounds like you've already made up your mind to reject anything to do with God/Jesus. I will be the first to admit that "religious" Christians as a whole have done a VERY good job at acting like a bunch of hypocrties. But not ALL Christians are hypocrites. I don't have religion but I do have a VERY personal and VERY real relationship with the Father through Jesus. It's something you just have to experience to know the reality of. The statement you made about the Native Americans (I happen to be a member of the Shawnee tribe by the way) having gods that pre-dated my God has absolutley no shred of truth. You say you look for truth, then tell me how you came to this conclution. According to the Holy Bible, my God created Light, stars, the heavens, the earth, he even separated light from dark....how can ANY god PRE-date THAT? If you can covince me that there were so-called gods before "my" God, the one that created the universe, then you will truely have my attention.

-Quin

[edit on 18-2-2006 by mytquin]

Why should you apologize? It's the Truth! I'm tired of having Muslims and other religions equating Christianity with unsound living because of all the individuals in Christendom who hold that eating and sleeping are the greatest ideals you should aspire to and that there is no God. Nihilism breeds immorality, anybody with a brain knows that. To quote dostoevsky "If God didn't exist everything would be allowed!"- don't believe me? Then check out fruitcakes such as Peter Singer at Peta-classic nihilist thought. The lack of absolutes in life for human beings is as dangerous as hydophobia to a dog.


[edit on 19-2-2006 by Nakash]

Yes christians etc may say that religion is about love and peace.
But think about this.
If the bible is not true, then isn't it awfully limiting?
Even if you are a good christian and love everyone, does it not block you off from all the infinite possibilities the wonderful universe has to offer, the true nature of god and reality?
I feel reality is much much more than the bible, but people brought up with its word are severely limited in their ability to grasp new concepts of god and reality.
Concepts i feel are imperative for growth, yet quite distant from religion.
Problems arise when people are too set in their ways and cannot accept other new ways of thinking. This is my main concern with religion. It is very limited.

Good call TOby, this is very true. Having so many rigid rules to abide by places severe restrictions on ones ability to grow and achieve their true potential. Belief is fine, but refusal to accept the possibility of aspects opposed to your belief can be detrimental to your spiritual growth.

Originally posted by Nakash
I'm tired of having Muslims and other religions equating Christianity with unsound living because of all the individuals in Christendom who hold that eating and sleeping are the greatest ideals you should aspire to and that there is no God. Nihilism breeds immorality, anybody with a brain knows that. To quote dostoevsky "If God didn't exist everything would be allowed
[edit on 19-2-2006 by Nakash]

YOUR truth! Not mine. Just cuz I am not Christian does not mean I tolerate evil. Far from it. In fact, if you need a 'God' to keep you in line, I fear for the day you may lose that faith. Atheists like Asimov act ethically and morally for reasons in the here and now, which is much less likely to be shaken. "And it harm none, do what you will." The Wiccan commandment. Good enough. The fact that I 'only' revere and admire Jesus ane refuse to pawn off my sins onto his shoulders just to get a free pass into heaven does not make me any more likely to act immorally. If Dostoevsky moved onto my block, I'd move...

Originally posted by mytquin
I apologize for accusing non-believers of living immoral lives, I just get caught in these kind of debates and my emotions get the best of me. "Religion" won't get you anywhere....form what I have learned, you can have all the "religion" you can stand and still not have love. Produkt, look, I don't have answers to ALL your questions but I do have a FEW. What good is it though for me to tell you why I believe in God/Jesus, when it sounds like you've already made up your mind to reject anything to do with God/Jesus. I will be the first to admit that "religious" Christians as a whole have done a VERY good job at acting like a bunch of hypocrties. But not ALL Christians are hypocrites. I don't have religion but I do have a VERY personal and VERY real relationship with the Father through Jesus. It's something you just have to experience to know the reality of. The statement you made about the Native Americans (I happen to be a member of the Shawnee tribe by the way) having gods that pre-dated my God has absolutley no shred of truth. You say you look for truth, then tell me how you came to this conclution. According to the Holy Bible, my God created Light, stars, the heavens, the earth, he even separated light from dark....how can ANY god PRE-date THAT? If you can covince me that there were so-called gods before "my" God, the one that created the universe, then you will truely have my attention.

-Quin

[edit on 18-2-2006 by mytquin]

What evidence do you have that YOUR god predates all that? lol

None. You have a book written less then 2000 years ago saying that. YOUR god is a recent god in terms of human history and belief's. YOUR god's creation myth is RECENT. The native american's settled north america what... 15ish thousand years ago with all their traditions and beliefs, none of which talk of YOUR god. The ancient greeks, romans, egyptions, chinese etc etc etc ALL predate any mention of YOUR god. What happened? People just forget all of a sudden about YOUR god when they got kicked out of eden? The people who wrote the bible just happened to forget to mention something like that? For over 100,000 years of the past held human belief's of the supernatural not one make's any mention of YOUR god.

I'd really like to know how your god is the right god when your god's story is NEW compared to the hundreds of previously held belief's.

That's an answer you don't have. And I've yet to meet a christian who isn't a hypocrite to his own belief's.

Oh c'mon ... I'm being serious.

AS AM I

How's your god the one true god and the right god to be following when he's just a recent god in human history.

Because I know no other, nor Is there any other, nor will there ever be, nor has there ever been. Myth spawns from truth. Truth spawns from the begining, the begining Is absolute.

How's your creation myth the right one when there are countless out there that not only predate it, but are also wholly different from it.

This Is because of the same reason as Religion exists today, come on Product work It out!

Those of faith follow blindly. Those without faith, live a life of constant learning.

Do you understand the True meaning of faith?

Answer: No, You should not have faith In that of what you know but In who you know, so In this case:

It's not what you know It's who you know

Double Post!

[edit on 19-2-2006 by One_Love_One_GOD]

Because I know no other, nor Is there any other, nor will there ever be, nor has there ever been. Myth spawns from truth. Truth spawns from the begining, the begining Is absolute.

Really? So then your one true god isn't the one true god. The begining started with MANY god's. You've never heard of osiris, anubis, odin, etc etc etc? They all predate your god. Your god was never mentioned prior to them. So I guess, those people's myth's of MANY god's was spawned from truth by what your saying.

I guess the same would go for all the various creation myth's that predate the biblical creation myth. We were all created by MANY gods

You know god? C'mon really now ... How well do you know god? You read about him, bout it. Have you ever seen him? Goto a coffee shop in amsterdam with him and toke one out with the old guy? Really now... exactly how well do you know your god outside of a book written by men less then 2000 years ago.

I'd really like for someone to point out ANY evidence of YOUR god being mentioned 6,000 or rvrn 10,000 years ago. No, I dare you to LOOK and open your eye's and really try to find this. You won't find it though. There's NO mention of your god this far back in time. None. Good luck though